Hell Calls: Are they acceptable or not ?

RublevRublev Shipmate
The Romans thought it was entertaining to watch people being fed to the lions.

In C21st this has been revived on SOF as hell calls.

Is this an acceptable form of behaviour?

Or is it simply another name for bullying?
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Comments

  • admin mode/

    This should be in the Styx and since it now takes Admin powers to move threads, I'm moving it.

    /admin mode
  • On the old ship there wasn’t the general discussion feed that topped the most recently discussed threads. You had to actually go to that forum.

    The new format perhaps makes hell threads more visible and kind of defeats the purpose of keeping personal scraps isolated from the rest of the board.

    I think theres a place for it but I think the mechanics of the new model sort of defeats the original purpose

    AFF
  • LothlorienLothlorien All Saints Host
    Among other things, Hell is a safety valve confining disputes between Shipmatesto one area keeping the Ship on an even keel. It may be entertaining sometimes but that is not its purpose, although you seem to think it is.

    Acceptable? What do you mean by this word and to whom is it acceptable.?

    Again you have tossed out some sentences but have given no grounds for discussion, nor have you given any ideas of your own opinions to discuss. I have seen others ask for this, not just have you seemingly grill them as an ill prepared teacher may do
  • LothlorienLothlorien All Saints Host
    Sorry, crossed with AFF. My reply was addressing @rublev
  • On the old ship there wasn’t the general discussion feed that topped the most recently discussed threads.

    Point of order: yes there was, it was called "Today's active threads", and a lot of people used it as their preferred way of reading the boards.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    On the old ship there wasn’t the general discussion feed that topped the most recently discussed threads.

    Point of order: yes there was, it was called "Today's active threads", and a lot of people used it as their preferred way of reading the boards.

    Well I’ll be dipped in butter I never ever saw or used that feature.

    I just hung out in the forums I liked and rarely went into the infernual region.

    AFF
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    IIRC, it was years before I noticed it, AFF. There, I didn't find it useful. Here, it seems to be the easiest way to access things. (Possibly because I still don't feel very comfortable on this site yet.)
  • I have mixed views (both/and) - as one might expect. I hope that doesn't result in a Hell call. ;)

    On balance, I think it can serve a useful purpose but equally it can become an excuse to dog-pile posters who have irritated others for whatever reason.

    It can be chastening, but equally it can be entertaining in a macabre kind of way - until things go too far and people get hurt.

    I once called myself to Hell for a laff and immediately regretted it as I'd made myself look daft, which isn't difficult.

    I think one of the problems is that we can develop asbestos underpants if we're not careful or spend too much time in Hell. We then start chucking insults around too readily or start to use it as a sandpit.

    We're all adults so the onus is on us to behave appropriately.

    I can only speak for myself but I am modifying my behaviour in the light of recent scorchings I've received. I've been around a long time so should have learned by now.

    I do feel sorry for some newbies though who've found themselves in Hell before they've learned the ropes.

    There are others who'd clearly grasped the concept yet seemed to become permanent Hell residents because they continued to be unfeasibly obnoxious.

    Hell does come with sufficient warnings, though. It's not as though it isn't adequately sign-posted.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited March 28
    Well this is where I confess that it took me several years to notice the feature on the old Ship too, but it was there.

    The fact is, though, that now as then, there is no obligation to visit Hell.

    The main purpose of Hell is containment: it keeps the nasty stuff in one place and out of the main flow of the boards. As such I think it is a stroke of genius (although apparently not original to the Ship) and I have often wished for such a forum in real church life.

    I'd say that overall, Hell serves as often as a route to reconciliation and restoration as to exclusion (or self-exclusion), and plays an important role in the Ship collectively doing all it can to keep people on board if at all possible.

    @Gamma Gamaliel in my experience dog-piling is both confined to Hell (by host posts on other boards) and called out in Hell. Far more so than on other fora or social media.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited March 28
    "Eutychus wrote: »

    ...

    I'd say that overall, Hell serves as often as a route to reconciliation and restoration as to exclusion (or self-exclusion), and plays an important role in the Ship collectively doing all it can to keep people on board if at all possible.

    The thing I have noticed about how human beings function is that reason and civility provide a thin veneer over a cauldron of remembered or buried hurts, grudges, disappointments and unresolved traumas.

    Very often these things are the real obstacles to our feeling connected to one another. Once those things have been given their voice, it seems to me that it is much easier to allow what-is, to be.

    I think hell does more good than harm in being a legitimate forum for airing grievances. Peoples hurt and frustration need to be acknowledged and apprecitaed.

    The way it functions seems to me to be vastly more compassionate than many other forums. If you want bullying try hanging out on some reddit forums, or 4chan. On one other board I actually received death threats for debating someone’s hebrew.

    Our version of hell is on the scoville scale seems to me quite mild in comparison to other similar regions elsewhere.

    AFF

  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited March 28
    Remarkably, the C of E Lent Pilgrim reflection for today is John7:53-8:11
  • *Sigh* and once again, that doesn't tell us what you think, or what you think of all the replies people have taken the time and energy to compose in response to your OP.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Rublev. Do you actually have an opinion on this subject that you want to share, or are you content just to collect others?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited March 28
    Hell is what has kept the Ship alive all these years.

    Church of Fools had a similar site called St Pixels, a spin off from the Ship. It was excellent ‘tho more religious and less unrestful than the Ship. I loved the blogging area there, I’ve found nothing like it since.

    It died for the lack of a Hell - a place for things to get personal and get resolved. To let of steam - with each other and about subjects which matter to us. If there isn’t a place to get things off chests then passive aggression creeps in and things begin to self destruct.

    See ‘Cancer Sucks’ and ‘Fucking guns’ as excellent examples.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited March 28
    Eutychus wrote: »
    On the old ship there wasn’t the general discussion feed that topped the most recently discussed threads.

    Point of order: yes there was, it was called "Today's active threads", and a lot of people used it as their preferred way of reading the boards.

    Well I’ll be dipped in butter I never ever saw or used that feature.

    I just hung out in the forums I liked and rarely went into the infernual region.

    AFF


    ‘Today’s active threads’ was how I accessed the Old Ship too.

    Of course, you don’t have to go to ‘recent discussions’ here either. The default is the separate boards - so you could avoid Hell just as easily if you want to.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    I have mixed feelings about Hell, which I would share if I felt you really wanted to discuss this, Rublev - if you were concerned about it or something. But as this just seems one of your many 'Here's a random discussion topic - and go!' threads, it doesn't feel so genuine or engaged, so I am not so inclined to share my thoughts.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    I have felt very disturbed by what I have seen happening in the recent hell calls. The latest victim came here in search of community. But instead he encountered a mob. The capacity to tolerate individuals is what distinguishes a community from a mob.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    I have felt very disturbed by what I have seen happening in the recent hell calls. The latest victim came here in search of community. But instead he encountered a mob. The capacity to tolerate individuals is what distinguishes a community from a mob.

    Bur when you enter a building for the first time it's kind of useful to read the instructions about the place.

    And you are coming across to me as showing a 'holier than thou' attitude that doesn't sit well.
  • LothlorienLothlorien All Saints Host
    You asked the purpose of Hell board. What you say in above post is not what Hell is about. It would probably be a good idea for a new sailor to avoid Hell while settling in aboard, get the feeling of the boards, see how they work. Then after some time, find yourself asbestos underwear as suggested, and put a toe delicately on board a HELL thread.

    You still see only what you think is right, not necessarily what works. You have not yet been able to communicate ideas and thoughts so others can have a discussion with you. You are not yet comfortable with the purpose of the boards as you throw out OP after OP, often in wrong board. A lot to learn before venturing anywhere near Hell.
  • Hell is vital (In the context of the the Ship - I'll leave the theology to another thread).

    If you look at any on-line discussion forum, it is very difficult to avoid personal attacks when passions run high. For me, and I suspect most, the great joy of this place is that we can have proper and meaningful discussions about things that really matter. You know the old saw about never discussing religion or politics - that's almost all the Ship does discuss (ok, I know not quite true) but the safety valve of Hell makes this possible. If you removed Hell, you'd see a massive deterioration in the rest of the boards.

    It also intrigues me that there are essentially 2 kinds of Hell threads - those that call specific Shipmates and those aimed at someone/something else. I have created a few of the latter back on the old Ship - they had an annoying habit of turning into Purgatory threads...

    Ultimately though Hell is not a free-for-all, even there, there are still rules. My impression is that the hosts generally take the view that a Pride of Lions that went chasing a gazelle who was grazing happily half-a-continent-away would get careful attention but that's not what happens in Hell. Hell is for Gazelles who wander into the centre of the Pride and start pulling funny faces. They do not get special protection at that point.

    In my experience, even in Hell, most posts will contain argument and rationale and not just personal attacks.

    I have learnt so much on the Ship - had my views challenged and shaped. I have changed my mind many times and that is only possible when robust passionate debate is allowed. Hell is necessary for that to be possible.*

    AFZ

    *In 16 years of on-and-off posting, I haven't yet been called to Hell. I wonder what I'm doing wrong...
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    To return to my OP: Are you bullying people for entertainment in these hell calls? And how do you justify that ethically?

    The principle which underlines freedom of speech is: 'I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    Disagreement is normal here. (We say that in Commandment 5). The ethos is unrest. Which can make this a difficult environment for the thin skinned. Or the arrogant.

    Hell makes a lot of sense as a safety valve in an environment designed for vigorous argument and the free expression of disagreement.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    I have felt very disturbed by what I have seen happening in the recent hell calls. The latest victim came here in search of community. But instead he encountered a mob. The capacity to tolerate individuals is what distinguishes a community from a mob.

    If you're talking about @Brother Jude there is every indication that Hell is serving its intended purpose, and no indication that he has been driven away. Several people have apologised to him, in Hell.

    I think the Ship has a huge capacity to tolerate individuals, but no community tolerates all individuals no matter the cost. The fact that a community enforces certain standards doesn't make it a mob.
  • Rublev wrote: »
    To return to my OP: Are you bullying people for entertainment in these hell calls? And how do you justify that ethically?

    The principle which underlines freedom of speech is: 'I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'

    And how about returning to some of the replies?
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Okay, yes, sometimes I feel disturbed by what happens in hell calls. But when I look at each post and analyse, I see quite a variety. The person is usually sent to hell because they have a way of communicating that is annoying people.

    There is part of me that thinks 'For heaven's sake - some people find communication harder than others, everyone is from different backgrounds with different communication norms, and rallying against someone, particularly a new person, to declare their communication unacceptable and demand they change is kind of unrealistic, and yes, a bit bullying.'

    But equally I can see, in many of the Hell calls, how the person was rubbing people up the wrong way, and the rules of the ship are such that people can't talk about this stuff in the actual discussion thread, where in theory it might just be a quick comment and move on, as it often is in real life, so instead it gets a whole thread. And the trouble with a whole thread is that many people, with nothing constructive to say, will join in with 'Yeah, ditto, I agree, you're a pain in the arse, and come across like a horrible person.' Which to me seems very unhelpful.

    However, it can be possible to have genuine discussion and talk rationally and positively with the person. Trouble is, often the person seems to have difficulties with communication and self-awareness and simply doesn't have that ability. Sometimes a class difference too - I've always felt a bit of a 'To fit into the Ship properly, it's best to communicate in an educated, no-nonsense, understated, middle class British way' kind of vibe, which I know isn't deliberate. Just that a lot of people here do fit into that category, so it is more the norm. In the same way as there are unconscious vibes, norms and expectations in groups that are more, say, midwestern American and evangelical. And often in those kind of groups, if you don't conform, you are simply kicked out without discussion. So better, at least, to have a place for discussion of differences and possibility of resolution, even though I do think it is abused by some.

    I do find Hell calls are now far less of a dogpile than they used to be on the old ship, with less insulting and more genuine attempt at discussion. There are a couple of shipmates who sometimes get called to Hell, and I really don't get it, because I like their posts, find them refreshing, and don't find them annoying. There are others where I get why they've been called to Hell and I see they are sounding arrogant or annoying, and if I think it might be helpful to explain to them how they are coming across, I do. I am aware this might come across as patronising, but I figure it's not the end of the world, for either me or them, if they find me patronising, and if there is a chance it can help and actually bring some clarity in the chaos of Hell, it's worth it.

    So that is my take on Hell.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Most recent Hell calls are mild compared with how they were years ago.
  • FirenzeFirenze Purgatory Host, Host Emeritus
    We are words on a screen. No gender, no colour, no accent, no age, no physical presence - just what we write.

    We have had on the Ship posters who have given entire characters and life stories which have netted attention, concern, advice, prayers, offers of help. But the words were fiction.

    We had one Shipmate who maintained he could not be known through words alone, and turned up as a sockpuppet to prove the point.

    (Never mind a whole drawerful of Socks that turned up regularly).

    But sooner or later the words told the truth, intentionally or not.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Thank you for your genuine answers. I have seen posts querying where Wild Haggis and Lilbuddha are. But you know what happened to them. They received hell calls and left the ship. Not everyone is robust and resilient enough to cope with them. And they could push a vulnerable person over the edge whether they are an adult or not.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Leaving the Ship is not the equivalent of dying.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Even if someone receives a hell call, they do not need to respond, read or in any way acknowledge it.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited March 28
    [x-posted with everybody]
    Rublev wrote: »
    Are you bullying people for entertainment in these hell calls? And how do you justify that ethically?
    Who is "you"?

    Hell calls are not posted by a community but by individual posters.

    If you have a problem with an individual poster, the procedure here is either to hold your peace or call them to Hell.

    If your OP is nothing more than a disguised complaint about an individual poster or posters, you should be calling them to Hell, not sniping from the protection of the Styx; to do so is passive-aggressive.

    If somebody calls someone to Hell solely to bully them, my experience is that the OPer will themselves come under attack from other Shipmates for bullying. As it says, by posting in Hell you paint a target on yourself.

    Which, to be pious for a moment, is the Ship way of saying "first take out the log in your own eye".

    To be pious for a moment longer, Hell calls are the Ship equivalent of the "telling it to the assembly" in Jesus' stages of conflict resolution.

    By and large, this works. Does it stop bullying altogether? No. But it contains it hugely, and offenders are likely to be countered robustly.
    The principle which underlines freedom of speech is: 'I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'

    I agreed to be an admin because I believe strongly in this principle, within the limits of the 10 Commandments. People don't usually get called to Hell for their views, they get called to Hell for the inappropriate attitudes they display.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    No one is querying where Wild Haggis went because she herself announced she was angry with the Ship and leaving. It didn't happen as a result of her Hell call - she returned after that. It happened after she was hosted for breaking rules and she was angry with the hosting. You need to read more of the boards to see. She made a Styx thread.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    @Rublev - if you want to see Hell function well, read the Susan Doris thread. It went on for pages while we tried to explain the difficulties, support ways to interact that worked and understand each other.

    The most recent Hell thread has helped people get a feel for where the new Shipmate is coming from and hopefully him realise where everyone else is coming from. But that couldn't happen on the Purgatory threads as the rules preclude personal attacks and don't let us explore someone's personality and difficulties in the same way.

    The Ship is a community. I have met four of the posters on this thread, through Ship Meets various of the many Shipmates I've met, and count both current and ex-Shipmates as friends. I have got to know others well over the years, some in the late lamented café We pray for each other, send each other presents (we used to have two Secret Santa type gift exchanges a year), cheer each other on and support each other. Try reading All Saints to get a flavour.

    Hell works as a way of saying something is not acceptable. We have frequent fliers, who push boundaries all the time, but either they stop being so confrontational or abusive, they give up and move on or they get banned. Because this is the internet and some people like yanking chains for fun.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited March 28
    Rublev wrote: »
    Thank you for your genuine answers. I have seen posts querying where Wild Haggis and Lilbuddha are. But you know what happened to them. They received hell calls and left the ship.
    Both are free to resume posting at any time. @lilbuddha has lurked since she stopped posting. And if you look back over the posting history of both of those people, you will see that they were not exactly above dishing it out themselves.

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    It's by no means unknown for folks to take 'sabbaticals' because they have become weary or disillusioned. Sometimes they decide they've just had enough and never come back. But many reappear after a period.

    It's a bracing environment and sometimes you have to brace yourself to engage.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    edited March 28
    But (following from my last post) equally, in any community, there will be people who don't like it and leave. I have never been called to Hell, but there have been times on the old Ship where I felt frustrated or upset with the community and how it operates, and I have left. And then later I came back. It's not a perfect community - such a community doesn't exist - and there are things I have mixed feelings about, as I said above, for example, but you decide whether you will stay or not, whether you can live with the annoyances and imperfections, whether they are outweighed by the benefits, which to me they are. Not for everyone, but for me. And now I am a Purg host, which rather surprised me, but it is a way I hope I can also give something to a community from which I get a lot.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    edited March 28
    And I crossposted with the world - I've met 6 of the current posters.

    I've been signed up for the Ship since 2006, lurked before. I have taken time out, because I didn't think the Ship was helping me or me the Ship. (Still continued to see the friends I'd made here)
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    And the other thing I know of, haven't experienced, is that bullying by PM happens. Hell is a whole lot nicer than that.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    I think there is a better way to go about it than appealing to the worst side in human nature. A rebuke from a recognised elder of the community when someone commits an error is very much in the NT tradition. A hell call inviting people to join in with attacking someone is not.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    If you see the hosts as the recognised elders, we do give rebukes when people break the rules or are rude to each other in the discussion threads, but people do often still want to take it further when they have personal disgreements, and Hell gives the opportunity to do this, rather than just shutting people up or kicking them off the Ship.

    And something I was surprised to discover (as someone who does feel quite a bit of concern for people who are called to Hell, and sometimes I message to see if they are okay) - is that quite a few times people are quite fine with being called to Hell, and find it quite constructive. And there seem to be some people who enjoy exchanging insults with each other in a kind of schoolboy fashion, for the humour value. There are all sorts of levels to the interactions in Hell that I have come to realise more over the years - I also initially thought it was simply a bullying game.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    I am glad to hear that you messenger them Fineline. I think that reconciliation should always be the goal of living together well in a community.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited March 28
    [x-post]
    Rublev wrote: »
    I think there is a better way to go about it than appealing to the worst side in human nature. A rebuke from a recognised elder of the community when someone commits an error is very much in the NT tradition. A hell call inviting people to join in with attacking someone is not.

    As @fineline says, the role of the Crew is to enforce the rules, not micro-manage other people's behaviour. We work on the assumption that we're dealing with grown-ups here, people who can settle their differences themselves without any help from us, always provided they remain within the 10Cs.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    I'm not convinced that in a community like the Ship, reconciliation should be the goal of managing all conflicts.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Rublev wrote: »
    To return to my OP: Are you bullying people for entertainment in these hell calls? And how do you justify that ethically?

    The principle which underlines freedom of speech is: 'I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
    So, you disapprove of saying that someone is an arrogant and sanctimonious prig, but you'll defend to the death the right to say it?

    The Ship rule is that you have the right to say it, but only in one designated area. (And even there the hosts and admins will step in if they think someone has a pattern of abusing the right.)
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    I think one way in which Ship of Fools is quite different from many other online communities I've been in is there are quite a lot of blokes here. And, while not wanting to make any stereotypes, and of course recognising that everyone is different, sometimes the way things are sorted in bloke culture is different from how groups of women might do it. I remember on the old Ship having a discussion where I was saying people wouldn't be this rude in real life, and the men were saying that actually for them, if they were in the pub with a group of guys, this would be quite normal.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited March 28
    [more x-posts]
    Rublev wrote: »
    I am glad to hear that you messenger them Fineline. I think that reconciliation should always be the goal of living together well in a community.

    What you're missing is that reconciliation very often requires an actual conflict beforehand; Hell is the designated forum for such conflicts here.

    One thing I've become aware of in real life thanks to my experience on the Ship is that Christians are conflict-avoidant; many people seem to think conflict is a sin. As a result they bottle everything up, guiltily, and adopt passive-aggressive behaviour that festers and leads to all sorts of manipulative behaviour. This can eventually blow up spectacularly and destructively.

    On the Ship I have learned that conflict is not necessarily terminal, nor is it necessarily destructive. But that it is necessary.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    @Dafyd

    What I had more in mind was the reason which prompted the latest hell call. It should be reasonable enough to cite the Bible in defence of your opinion as long as you can back up your argument. I'm a liberal myself but I recognise that there are other hermeneutics. And it creates a more inclusive discussion.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Rublev wrote: »
    I am glad to hear that you messenger them Fineline. I think that reconciliation should always be the goal of living together well in a community.

    I should clarify that I don't do this in my host role or with the idea that reconciliation is the aim of the community, and I don't always do it. I just do it personally, when I think I would be upset if I were these people - though they are not me and often aren't upset. I'm sure others do it too - plenty of communication happens by message.

    I think maybe this community has more the aim to discuss things that perhaps Christian groups don't always discuss - to be a group of 'Christian unrest.' Challenging norms, maybe. It's not about being a cosy group where everyone gets on - I'm not sure this is even what people want. Not everyone likes everyone - we all, I'm sure, have people we find annoying or even actively dislike.

    As hosts, our role is kind of organisational, to make sure people post in the right boards, and stick to the topic, to make things easy for people to navigate. Not to bring about reconciliation. As Eutychus said, if people have personal differences, it is up to them as adults to resolve it. We provide a Hell thread to give them a place to do so, if they wish to use it, or they can use the message system.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    @alienfromzog said -
    If you look at any on-line discussion forum, it is very difficult to avoid personal attacks when passions run high. For me, and I suspect most, the great joy of this place is that we can have proper and meaningful discussions about things that really matter. You know the old saw about never discussing religion or politics - that's almost all the Ship does discuss (ok, I know not quite true) but the safety valve of Hell makes this possible. If you removed Hell, you'd see a massive deterioration in the rest of the boards.

    Exactly this.

    And the Hell caller (in this case it was me) often gets an uncomfortable - and often useful - mirror held up to their own attitudes, assumptions and behaviours.

    And remember what @Lamb Chopped said on that thread.
    Because you are on the internet, there is no way anyone here can know your true life circumstances. All we have to go on is your words.

    Not everyone’s life circumstances are what they say they are either. We’ve had sob stories on the Ship which have turned out to be a complete and utter fabrication.

    @Rublev - I suggest buying a ITTWACW (I Thought This Was A Christian Website) Mug and trusting the Hosts and Admins to do their job.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Rublev wrote: »
    I think there is a better way to go about it than appealing to the worst side in human nature. A rebuke from a recognised elder of the community when someone commits an error is very much in the NT tradition. A hell call inviting people to join in with attacking someone is not.
    And I thought we were a priesthood of all believers?

    Rublev - imagine a scenario where you were being personally attacked on a thread, and the 'elders' did nothing, or not enough, or blamed you. Or that it was you who was constantly being rebuked by some 'elder' (who you have no say in appointing) for what you posted and how you posted, and you felt you were being bullied by them. It's also worth mentioning the some of the hosts/admins aren't Christians, and some of those who are aren't from traditions that recognise 'elders'. I don't know how that fits into your preferred framework.

    You're an adult, and you're responsible for your own actions, as is everyone else. In life, we give offence. Hell is simply a better mechanism for refinement and reconcilliation than having hosts running amok, fielding PMs by butt-hurt Shippies simply demanding that something be done about poster X or Y. You yourself have recourse.
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