MPaul: the reason Christianity is dying on the vine

RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
Here's some particularly nasty bile:
Abortion, homosexuality, transgerderism [sic] and terrorism are evil curses allowed by God on Western society for our rejection of him and his word.

No. Just no.

All societies practice abortion because some pregnancies are for various reasons unwanted. In this particular case, it was a life-threatening pregnancy. But women aren't fully human to you, so fuck 'em.

All societies have homosexual people because all around the world there are people wired that way. But gay people aren't fully human to you, so fuck 'em.

All societies have trans people because all around the world, again, there are people wired that way. But trans people aren't fully human to you, so fuck 'em.

Terrorism we have in part because we are reaping the harvest of Western oppression and colonialism, but truly it's because people have been terrorizing each other from the word go. (It's laughable of you to say God has allowed us to be cursed with terrorism for our rejection of him given God's predilection for terrorizing innocents in what you call "his word.") But looking at humanity is apparently beyond you, and the people who have suffered under Western oppression and colonialism aren't fully human to you, so fuck 'em.

You would do well to examine your misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, and racist ideas a little more carefully and ask yourself why anyone, anyone at all, should give a flying fuck what you think, never mind listen to any testimony you might give in favor of such a hateful religious viewpoint.

If that's beyond you, then do us all a favor and just fuck off.
«13456789

Comments

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I think you're being too kind to MPaul, whose post w.as just plain bile.

  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly. Nothing I posted was intended personally but I am not backing down from it. Ultimately, the soul that sinneth it will die, whatever the nature of the sin. The quarrel here is not with me but as all this has been hashed out many times, there is no point in re litigating the whole Romans 1 argument. If the apostle Paul was a hater then I guess you were right Ruth, I am also one but like him, I am a hater who does not hate. Blessing be upon all of you.
  • Bless your heart. Don't need to be gay to be repulsed by those who love calling those who are gay unclean and then wash their hands by saying 'nothing personal'.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    MPaul--

    You said:
    Ultimately, the soul that sinneth it will die, whatever the nature of the sin.

    Well, that would apply to you, too. Yet you come across like you think you're so much better. MPaul, meet mirror.

    I disagree with you (and your interpretation of the Bible) about particular sins. But, as a Christian and universalist, my hope is that God won't rest until everyone and everything is safe, and well, and Home.

    No matter what.



  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Bless him. He can't help being a misogynistic homophobe because his God is one. Let's be honest - if MPaul is right then a bunch of thugs beating a gay guy up on a Friday night is nothing compared to what God's going to do to them in the hereafter.

    The Fundamentalist's God - the ultimate queer-bashing thug.

    And he wonders why we don't take his bullshit seriously.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited April 6
    Maybe the presence of bigots and right-wing bullies is really the sign of how far from the deity we are.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    As far as abortion goes I also have a visceral reaction. I weep for the women whose bodies are not deemed to be their own and who don’t have access to modern health care.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly.

    And many straight members agree with Ruth, including me. For a long time after I was indecently assaulted by a gay man, I too was anti-gay. Then I realised that the wrongdoing I'd undergone should not be held against gays generally.
  • To me, it seems that MPaul has managed to get everything the wrong way round. He's calling the blessings of God curses, I'm sure he'll find something in the Bible about that.

    We are blessed to live in a world where gender isn't a dull binary, but a rich spectrum of different identities. Where there's a diverse variety of sexuality. Where there isn't a single monotone way to experience God, but a colourful tapestry of experience and expression of faith where God meets each one of us as individuals. Diversity leads to life, produces strength in responding to the changing pressures of the world. I'm thankful to God for blessing us with such a richly diverse world to live in, it's far preferable to the tedious monotonous world MPaul seems to think we should exist in.

    I'd also thank God for the blessings of medical science, that gives us methods to reduce the suffering of women dying needlessly in childbirth, and the suffering of their friends and family at such loss.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Medical science simply tries to interfere with God's will. Fuck 'em.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »

    GK you are wasting your time. He's not listening.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly.

    And many straight members agree with Ruth, including me. For a long time after I was indecently assaulted by a gay man, I too was anti-gay. Then I realised that the wrongdoing I'd undergone should not be held against gays generally.

    This. I had some #MeToo experiences courtesy of gay co-workers. (Straight men aren't the only men who harass women.) That, plus a fundamentalist background, plus some other things, made LGBT a difficult topic. I still have issues, and there are some outward manifestations of LGBT with which I'm very uncomfortable. But I don't think being LGBT is sinful.

  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    As far as abortion goes I also have a visceral reaction. I weep for the women whose bodies are not deemed to be their own and who don’t have access to modern health care.

    Of course the pro-life and creationist mantras make zero sense anyway.

    Logically one can hold several of these positions at the same time; that abortion as a form of birth control is bad, that some women live in terrible forced conditions with regard to their own bodies, that children need sexual education to protect themselves and so on.

    The nonsense from the pro-life bigots starts when they label abortion and murder and leads off into the trees with all kinds of utter nonsense - that they clearly don't apply to anything else in life.

    Nobody says "oh cars are evil - they are murder machines, thinks of all the unborn children who are killed every year by them..."

    I mean it is just pathetic.

    One can find something objectionable and make efforts to avoid it without reaching for the most extreme language.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It was not at work, but a social function. I realised that the crime of man was his responsibility only, not of gays in general.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited April 6
    I find it entertaining but also chilling, being so many things MPaul regards as a curse: a gay man who is a liberal Christian with a low view of the biblical texts. It's like running into the same brick wall over and over again. There has to be a point when enough is enough.

    ETA: the level of revelation MPaul has received is astounding. An entire, totally self-justifying theological, ethical and hermeneutic system delivered to one person at one time. We are all to admire and receive, unquestioned and unquestioning, or be damned.

    Debate is futile, and dangerous to our immortal souls.

    Or not.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    It's very simple isn't it? Bible says X therefore X.

    I dunno though, there must be a reason why we use "simple" as a euphemism for "thick".
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It's very simple isn't it? Bible says X therefore X.

    I dunno though, there must be a reason why we use "simple" as a euphemism for "thick".

    I don't think it's simple at all, if you look at some of his posts. Quite remarkably complex, but presented as simple, natural and indeed inherent in the text itself.

    Hot and cold running bollocks the lot of it, anyway.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    I do think it is slightly incorrect to say that MPaul is to blame for the decline of the faith.

    The blame is, of course, shared by all the other idiots who spread this nonsense.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    I think you're being too kind to MPaul, whose post w.as just plain bile.

    Yes but it is righteous bile, God's gift to His chosen few, purified in the persecuting storm of our mockery. We should rejoice at being chosen to be the instruments of his shining.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    I think you're being too kind to MPaul, whose post w.as just plain bile.

    Yes but it is righteous bile, God's gift to His chosen few, purified in the persecuting storm of our mockery. We should rejoice at being chosen to be the instruments of his shining.

    If that's anything other that total satire, it's even worse bollocks that MPaul's. We may be the occasion of his fraudulent martyr complex, but there is nothing divinely-inspired about the shit he comes out with.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Bless your heart. Don't need to be gay to be repulsed by those who love calling those who are gay unclean and then wash their hands by saying 'nothing personal'.

    “At its heart, violence is almost always, in one way or another, personal.” — Quellcrist Falconer
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    "The reason Christianity is dying on the vine" - yes. It is these bigotted, hurtful, and totally mistaken (wrong) views that are responsible for the problems in organised Christianity. So many of these people see themselves as a "faithful remnant", rather than a reactionary, out of date losers.

    I am an evangelical. I have a theology degree. Oh, and a PhD. And my faith is not based on hatred and exclusion.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited April 6
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I do think it is slightly incorrect to say that MPaul is to blame for the decline of the faith.

    The blame is, of course, shared by all the other idiots who spread this nonsense.

    The trouble is mr cheesy, this bolsters the faith in Russia, in Brazil, in the right wing swing of the 80% conservatively biased pendulum of human nature throughout the world, therefore in the US, Europe and not just in the Christian (thank God Jesus wasn't one!) world but the entire religious world. The entire world. Progress, history is dead in the water.

    MPaul is the silent majority. A behemoth, a Beast breaching the surface. Antichrist. Which as it prospers, none dare call it so.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    And sadly, you're not wrong.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    We have to therefore be subversive cockeyed optimists Doc.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I do think it is slightly incorrect to say that MPaul is to blame for the decline of the faith.

    The blame is, of course, shared by all the other idiots who spread this nonsense.

    The trouble is mr cheesy, this bolsters the faith in Russia, in Brazil, in the right wing swing of the 80% conservatively biased pendulum of human nature throughout the world, therefore in the US, Europe and not just in the Christian (thank God Jesus wasn't one!) world but the entire religious world. The entire world. Progress, history is dead in the water.

    MPaul is the silent majority. A behemoth, a Beast breaching the surface. Antichrist. Which as it prospers, none dare call it so.

    Absolutely.

    I am beginning to reject the label ‘Christian’ because of it.

    Yet, there is hope. I was listening to a Jew and an Atheist chatting in a podcast. The subject of religion was just an aside to the main subject. But they both agreed that the Christian message is one of inclusion and empathy.


  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 6
    A whimsical thought - is perhaps MPaul a Dualist, Bogomil, or Cathar, who, believing in the judgmental and fundamentally evil 'Bad God' (le mal Dieu) has yet to receive the revelation of the 'Good God' (le bon Dieu), manifested in the person of Jesus Christ?
  • Saying it's not personal is the worst thing of all. I am erased, or subsumed into a grey mass of zero-people. Would Jesus say, nothing personal?
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly. Nothing I posted was intended personally but I am not backing down from it. Ultimately, the soul that sinneth it will die, whatever the nature of the sin. The quarrel here is not with me but as all this has been hashed out many times, there is no point in re litigating the whole Romans 1 argument. If the apostle Paul was a hater then I guess you were right Ruth, I am also one but like him, I am a hater who does not hate. Blessing be upon all of you.

    'Not intended personally'.

    The sterile, soul-killing, self-deluding lie we tell ourselves when we don't want to take responsibility for the choices we make, which already conveniently suit our misanthropic views of other people.

    As if to say, 'It's not me, the Bible made me do it!'

    I would respect this view more if there were any evidence of Christlike love about it. But the sociopathic indifference displayed here to fellow creatures is chilling.
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly. Nothing I posted was intended personally but I am not backing down from it. Ultimately, the soul that sinneth it will die, whatever the nature of the sin. The quarrel here is not with me but as all this has been hashed out many times, there is no point in re litigating the whole Romans 1 argument. If the apostle Paul was a hater then I guess you were right Ruth, I am also one but like him, I am a hater who does not hate. Blessing be upon all of you.

    'Not intended personally'.

    The sterile, soul-killing, self-deluding lie we tell ourselves when we don't want to take responsibility for the choices we make, which already conveniently suit our misanthropic views of other people.

    As if to say, 'It's not me, the Bible made me do it!'

    I would respect this view more if there were any evidence of Christlike love about it. But the sociopathic indifference displayed here to fellow creatures is chilling.

    Yes, being impersonal is anti-love, and annihilates the person.
  • Raptor EyeRaptor Eye Shipmate
    MPaul wrote: »
    Thank you for the OP. I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly. Nothing I posted was intended personally but I am not backing down from it. Ultimately, the soul that sinneth it will die, whatever the nature of the sin. The quarrel here is not with me but as all this has been hashed out many times, there is no point in re litigating the whole Romans 1 argument. If the apostle Paul was a hater then I guess you were right Ruth, I am also one but like him, I am a hater who does not hate. Blessing be upon all of you.

    The quarrel here is with you. The post the op quotes from demonstrates a theological belief that God is 'allowing' bad things to happen to people because none of us are being 'true' Christians. This is your theology, therefore this is about you, and the way you see it.

    Other theological viewpoints are available.

    Your list of 'sins' - i.e. what you believe to be sins - is far from comprehensive.

    The way I see it, God does not allow or condone evil. God always stands against evil. According to the teaching and example of Jesus God knows our hearts, and whether or not we demonstrate God's love in the world. God forgives, and expects the same of us. God does not make evil happen to us as a punishment. When we do sin, we cause grief to ourselves. We need to show love to one another, as none of us is perfect.

    Are we kind? Do we demonstrate the fruit of the spirit?

    Or do we spend our time judging others, looking for specks in their eyes when we have planks in our own?

    Christianity isn't dying on the vine, but it seems to me that some discourage its growth.


  • Every failure to appreciate is a failure to connect through love.

    To say you love, while failing to be in appreciation, is a lie.

    The challenge is to be connected to one another through appreciation.

    IMO we can only say think and do what is in our script.

    IMO MPaul plays the role he has writtten for himself very well. His portrayal and performance of his type of Christianity is so authentic it is to be completely believed.

    Really great performance. If the lines he delivers are not to be believed certainly he is utterly convincing in the role he has chosen for his life. I give the performance 10\10.

    AFF
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    ((Gee))
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Saying it's not personal is the worst thing of all. I am erased, or subsumed into a grey mass of zero-people. Would Jesus say, nothing personal?

    Well yeah. All @MPaul is saying is that your existence, and the existence of everyone like you, is a curse God has inflicted on the world. Why does that count as "personal"?

    I always amazed (though I guess I shouldn't be, given how commonplace it is) at those who not only think they have the right to tell people what worthless pieces of shit they are (which they do), but also that they get to dictate how others react to being called worthless pieces of shit (which they certainly don't). That's what @MPaul and others like him think of as the natural order: they sit in judgment of you, and you're supposed to grovel and apologize for not living up to their standards. You passing judgment on them is wrong (in their estimation) and very confusing for them.
    This makes for a new and fundamentally different argument. For decades, the religious right has been arguing that their purchase on the moral high ground ought to result in their political triumph. The political opposition to that used to be a form of “yes, but …” — yes, these political preachers are correct about morality and immorality, but other factors need to be considered, or other complications have to be accounted for, etc.

    Opposition to the religious right’s agenda on Tuesday [ ed. - November 6, 2012 ] did not take the form of this “yes, but …” argument. It was simply, “No.”

    It was not a disagreement about the political implications of the preachers’ righteous moral claims, but a denial of those claims, of their righteousness and of their morality. No, these political preachers are incorrect about morality and immorality. No, pretending that some “biblical definition of marriage” is a pretext for denying people their rights or delegitimizing their families is not good or decent or right. No, legal coercion compelling rape victims to bear the offspring of their attackers is not good or decent or right.

    And that cuts to the core of the matter. That isn’t just a single defeat in a single election, but a fundamental rejection of the entire basis for why anyone, anywhere should ever listen to the religious right.

    The religious right can no longer simply assert and assume that it has the moral high ground. If it wants to make that claim, it will have to argue for it, will have to explain why its absolute opposition to legal abortion and to civil rights for LGBT people is right or true or good.

    Arguing with people and trying to convince them how terrible they are is nowhere near as much fun as condemning people and having them accept your authority.
  • Jesus seemed more concerned with how we treat each other than anything else. Which is why we got the 2 summary commandments re loving God and loving our neighbours as ourselves. We didn't get commands about judging and admonishing.

    Also notable is that we are supposed to live Christian lives not just do a magic born again thing and then tell everyone how we know it all.
  • I'm Really Glad ™ that Jesus (le bon Dieu) simply took people as He found them.

    As, I believe, He still does.

    And, I also believe, His mercy and love extend even to gobshites like @MPaul.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    When this former Christian was a deacon, she was taught that we are made in God's image. Alas, some of us take this a little too literally to heart, while simultaneously forgetting that any image we construct of God is pitifully shrunken and constrained and distorted by our own limitations.

    Scripture has so little to say about being gay, and nothing at all to offer on the topic of abortion. Scripture has so much to say about amending injustice, about defending the oppressed, about kindness and charity and generosity to the stranger, the immigrant, the dwellers-on-society's-fringes. Using scripture as a guide to Christian life wouldn't appear to lead in any natural, straightforward way to such wholesale condemnation, unless you happen to be a usurer doing brisk business in the Temple or a Pharisee sitting in judgment upon others while congratulating yourself that you are not made like them.

    Who is the God in whose image you're made, MPaul?



  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    It seems evident that the degree to which @MPaul is representative of christianity is exactly the degree to which it deserves to be abandoned by all.
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    RooK wrote: »
    It seems evident that the degree to which @MPaul is representative of christianity is exactly the degree to which it deserves to be abandoned by all.

    I sort of agree with RooK. It seems that Christianity is schisming and MPaul is one one side and I - and most who identify as Christian on the ship - are on the other.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    "Gay people are a curse from God. Wait, why did you take that personally?"

    The collective human frontal cortex weeps.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    If MPaul is right, and I am cursed by God - what is the point of attempting to be a Christian ? I can’t not be homosexual anymore than I can make myself a different race or change my height. So if I am already damned from birth, why should I worship the entity that destroys me ?
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    MPaul wrote: »
    I realise that Ruth is gay and that the ship has many gay members who would react similarly.

    You don't give a flying fuck about people who are different from you, so you can't wrap your tiny little mind around the possibility that some of us are capable of caring about people who are unlike us. It's a wonder you don't think I'm a terrorist, because who else could care about such people?

    Of course you don't mean any of this personally, because if you did you'd have to consider the real human beings you're talking about. You don't love us. You don't bless us. You are failing miserably as a Christian. You are a blight upon these boards. You preach hate and sow misery, and the only reason you don't bring us all down with you is that we recognize that adherence to an inhumane ideology has stunted any compassion you might have otherwise been capable of.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    I think you're being too kind to MPaul, whose post w.as just plain bile.

    Yes but it is righteous bile, God's gift to His chosen few, purified in the persecuting storm of our mockery. We should rejoice at being chosen to be the instruments of his shining.

    If that's anything other that total satire, it's even worse bollocks that MPaul's. We may be the occasion of his fraudulent martyr complex, but there is nothing divinely-inspired about the shit he comes out with.

    If it were total satire, is it any good?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Well, I lolled.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Me, too.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ((Gee))

    Thanks - it was 45 odd years ago and was a grope at a socialite party. As assaults go, it was not bad at all, but still had the effect described. I'm grateful to those who helped me get past it.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    me too Gee.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes - it's been a half century of dramatic change in general outlook, hasn't it.
  • Mark BettsMark Betts Suspended
    edited April 7
    The thing is that everyone should know the default Ship's view on these matters (ultra-liberal) and that variance is not tolerated by other shipmates.

    I also know that there are a number of shipmates who don't agree with the "default" view, but they won't discuss their opinions here, because they know they'll end up underneath a dogpile. Things get heated, and the person with the non-default view can end up with involuntary shore-leave.

    So MPaul, you are entitled to your views just as much as anyone else, but it's unwise to try to discuss them here - it's like going to a Labour Party conference and trying to discuss the benefits of privatisation.
Sign In or Register to comment.