Marvin

mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
Barnabas62 wrote: »
mr cheesy wrote: »
This must be a wind-up.

Is it really so hard to believe that someone could feel as strongly about this sort of thing as I do?

It is hard to believe anyone could post with your lack of self-awareness and stupidity, yes.

Sauce for the goose. Marvin doesn't get to rant here and you don't get to call him stupid here. Take it to Hell if you like.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host.

I'm sorry, nothing I've said is even close to talking about the murder of a named person. If you think I'm "ranting" you are far from the mark.

What Marvin said was utterly deplorable. What he is continuing to say is disgusting.

Clearly the admins have difficulty with identifying hate speech when the person saying it is one of their own.

Marvin needs enforced shore leave, not a call to Hell. The end.

Comments

  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited April 6
    Furthermore, if these things were said about a Member of Parliament or some other celebrity, you'd be quite likely be talking to the police about it.

    And yet fuck all is done when someone continues to use the most extreme language about a named person.

    Am I ranting enough for you now?
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    It's a Commandment 3 offence. You can say Marvin's post is stupid. You can't say he is stupid.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    So far as Marvin's rant is concerned, whether the language used contravenes any Commandment 1 offence such as hate speech is above my pay grade and a matter for Admin. I stand by both of my rulings as a Host. In both cases they are justified by the commandments and guidelines and are well within my authority as a Host.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    No, saying something which is hate speech is clearly stupid. Not a rant. Not a Commandment 3 infringement. The truth.

    There are two options

    Either Marvin is playing and saying things to rile people up. That's a Commandment 1 offence.

    Or Marvin is being serious and is using these bulletin boards to say that he would be justified to kill someone. That's a Commandment 1 offense.

    If none of the Admins want to deal with the fact that an Admin talks about how he would murder someone on these boards, then let's ask the owners.

    @Simon @Ancient Mariner maybe you can tell me whether this is appropriate and whether you want these words to remain in public view on this website. Written by someone with the highest authority on the ship's crew.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    As a matter of interest, did you at any point before B62 mentioned the possibility of a C1 violation, PM a Purg host regarding a potential C1 violation?
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, did you at any point before B62 mentioned the possibility of a C1 violation, PM a Purg host regarding a potential C1 violation?

    I am not discussing PMs. Whether I did or didn't is not relevant.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    [ HOSTING ]

    How annoying.

    The disturbing aspects of @Marvin the Martian 's posting are certainly in-bounds as topic for discussion in The Styx, explicitly because of his Administrator role. And it is important for us to do so.

    However, this is more rant-y an effort than is likely to function well for productive discussion. Specifically, @mr cheesy 's manner of high-amplitude emotional assertions about exactly how other should feel about things, both topical and procedural, are absolutely the sort of thing we have Hell for.

    So.

    Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to leave this thread here, for now, so long as we can reasonably discuss expected decorum and moderation for Crew with the interest of being transparent and progressive. Meanwhile, please take explicit discussion about what the fuck crawled up Marv's ass and hate-muppeted his mouth to Hell. Because not only would it be procedurally correct, but also funny.

    As I say it, so mote it be.

    [ /HOSTING] ]
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    I'm on shore leave after tonight, a family visit for a grandchild's birthday. So I will leave further discussion of my rulings or any wider issues to other Hosts and Admin. In general it is better for a Host to stand aside after posting an explanatory response. I'll be back on Wednesday.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    I'm taking shore leave. I'm not going to reply any more to this thread or to this issue.

    Whether I come back depends entirely on how this issue is dealt with.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Question, if I may:

    I've read most of that thread. AFAICT, it became a rather heated discussion about capital punishment. ISTM that Marvin isn't a monster--he just expressed very common, normal thoughts and feelings. He never offered to personally go kill murderers.

    So a) Why are so many posters shocked that someone believes in capital punishment? b) Why are they basically accusing him of being evil or insane? And c) Why would his posts be considered hate speech? (By mr cheesy, at least.)

    FYI: I'm not pro capital punishment--not that there aren't actions that deserve it; but many people are wrongly convicted, or or altogether innocent. Those are my primary reasons. OTOH, I'm not a big fan of prisons, either, unless someone has done heinous things and won't or can't stop. (And no, I don't have any easy answers.)

    Am I missing something?

    Thx.
  • edited April 7
    I don't think so. Our world is a hard world at some junctures and it is tough love that's required. It's clear Marvin gets that. So what he posted pushed some buttons for some others who've perhaps had different life experiences or still aspire to a world I used to think were possible. His post allowed me to post what I did. And we're all allowed to keep discussing and learning. Let's just skip any self-righteousness about it all and get back to it. Self-ridiculousness is more better.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    From a technical perspective I do not believe Marvin’s post constitutes incitement (in that he was not suggesting we go and lynch person x), nor hate speech - because he was not suggesting the persecution of a group of people on the basis of a ‘protected characteristic’.

    Nor do I see how he has violated any of the ship commandments, (though I disagree strongly with his point of view).
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Dead Horses Host
    Just got time for this. DT, Hell is reserved for venting and ranting, about Shipmates, RL people and issues. Ranting and venting do not contravene the 10Cs but in Purgatory they contravene the overall guideline that Purgatory is the forum for serious discussion. That's the technical reason for the Hostly warning to Marvin.

    The other technical issues concerning ranting and venting are whether they descend into either Commandment 1 offences or put the site owner at legal risk of allowing libel or the expression of ideas contravening the laws relating to what is colloquially described as hate speech.

    As a Purgatory Host I am allowed to judge when posts cross over from serious discussion to ranting. IMO Marvin crossed that line quite clearly, hence my ruling. You are of course free to challenge that judgment, but that is the basis for my ruling. The other technical questions are for Admin.
  • [Note, I drafted this last night but waited for other admins to confirm it covered the issue from our perspective. In the interim, others have also commented along similar lines.]
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    If none of the Admins want to deal with the fact that an Admin talks about how he would murder someone on these boards, then let's ask the owners.
    As far as the Admins are concerned, this has been dealt with.

    Concern was raised that in this post Marvin had threatened to murder a particular individual. We reviewed that post, noting that it was within a conversation that started with a clearly hypothetical case in this post where Marvin said "if someone did something like that to my child then ...", and therefore it wasn't clearly and unambiguously a threat against the individual who's the subject of the thread. Even if it was an unambiguous threat to a specific individual it wouldn't be considered a credible threat as Marvin has no power to do anything except rant on a bulletin board. Rants belong in Hell, not Purgatory. The particular comments may have been borderline acceptable in Hell, and probably would have been called because Marvin is an Admin and held to higher standards than others, and the hosts pick up some kudos and extra points in the Crew Lounge for legitimately calling out an Admin.

    Raising the question of hate speech is irrelevant. Marvin's comments are not, in any way, based on membership of any group, much less a group with protected characteristics (race, gender, religion, sexuality etc).

    In consideration of the above our advice to the hosts was that the subject of the thread is one that will always result in emotional responses, that may fall below the standard we seek in Purgatorial discussion. And, specifically that some of the comments by Marvin were more like rants and hence should have been made in Hell. This was the basis of the ruling by Barnabas62. There has been ample opportunity to question that ruling here in the Styx since then if anyone was unhappy with it.

    Marvin acknowledged the warning and backed off the more heated language. Subsequently, his posts have consisted of a robust argument in favour of capital punishment in a limited number of instances, largely argued in general terms rather than specifically relating to any individual criminal. Capital punishment is something that has support in a large portion of the population, and is a legitimate subject for discussion on the Ship. We may disagree with the arguments Marvin is making, but so long as he expresses those views without personally attacking other Shipmates, or otherwise transgressing our Commandments, he has every right to make those arguments.

    Alan
    Ship of Fools Admin
  • Well now, this is nice. There are so many things I’d like to say about this, but I’ll restrict myself to a single observation:

    Other than my first post on that thread, in which I (inappropriately, per Barnabas’ ruling) spoke about what I would want to do in a hypothetical situation where it was my child who had been killed, I have been talking about the punishment that should be meted out by the State. I’ve been very explicit about that on multiple occasions.

    It’s a shame Cheesy seems to have gone away. There’s more that I’d like to say to him in Hell, but if he’s not here to read it there’s little point doing so.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Don't let that stop you - if you visit the thread I think you'll find other willing interlocutors.
  • Mark BettsMark Betts Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Golden Key wrote: »
    …...And c) Why would his posts be considered hate speech? (By mr cheesy, at least.)

    I can answer this one question very easily. When it comes to ultra-liberals, you know them by the frequency with which they use words like "hate" and "bigotry" - usually in the context where the other party doesn't agree with everything they say.

    It is similar to a child who accuses his parents of "hating" him, because they didn't buy him the trainers he wanted for his birthday.

  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    Mark Betts wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    …...And c) Why would his posts be considered hate speech? (By mr cheesy, at least.)

    I can answer this one question very easily. When it comes to ultra-liberals, you know them by the frequency with which they use words like "hate" and "bigotry" - usually in the context where the other party doesn't agree with everything they say.

    It is similar to a child who accuses his parents of "hating" him, because they didn't buy him the trainers he wanted for his birthday.

    You needn't have bothered as your answer says more about your particularly prejudices than anything else. Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or a group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Calling someone out for that has nothing to do with with being an ultra-liberal. It's a hallmark of decency.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Tubbs:

    :notworthy:
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    mousethief wrote: »
    Tubbs:

    :notworthy:

    :blush:
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    Thank you, Tubbs.
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