Colin Smith's novel...

Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
edited April 20 in The Styx
...appears in bits in several posts in Heaven, with Mr Smith asking for reactions/comments on his writing. Surely, this is a Homework Thread?

I have no personal axe to grind, but from this, and other threads, I get the distinct impression that the Ship is being used by this gentleman for research purposes.



«1

Comments

  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    I'm available for the role of Handsome Prince. He'll have to talk with my agent though.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 20
    :lol:

    I hope Your People drive a hard bargain with His People.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    The Ship's crew are aware. It's going to take a little while to gather a quorum due to it being Easter, so please bear with us.
  • Thank you, O Hostly One. Noted, and understood.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 20
    Hosts have hosted.

    And if that host post isn't clear enough, the Styx is the place to post any questions about that, on this thread.

    Not critique the work of literature in question, and yes @mousethief, I'm looking at you.

    Eutychus
    SoF Admin
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    I haven't even read it.
  • That didn't stop you being pedantic in the wrong place about the OP title. Knock it off.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    I"m sorry. I didn't see that it was a Styx post. Lighten up.
  • SusanDorisSusanDoris Shipmate
    May I make a comment about listening to one-and-a-half posts of the novel, or would that be a no-no?
  • Not for me to say, but, in view of what the Crew has said, might a PM to Mr Smith be more appropriate? He may (or may not!) welcome comments......
  • Colin SmithColin Smith Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Well, that went well.

    I did not ask for any feedback. All I wrote was “I hope it entertains more than it annoys” Therefore not a homework post.

    Heaven guidelines. "Communal writings – the Ship of Fools Song Book, a progressive novel, or your holiday planning guide." That appeared to cover what I was doing.

    Copyright. Ship of Fools reserves the right to use any material posted on the Ship for it's own purposes. But that does not mean I have surrendered my right to do as I see fit with my work.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    @Colin Smith - can you really not see that your best bet is to work this issue out with Hosts and Admins?

    IOW, we are ALL under authority here.
  • @Colin Smith - can you not see that your best bet is to work this out with Hosts and Admins?

    Doh!

    They have not been in touch.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Well, please bear in mind that Hosts & Admins are in various countries, time zones etc., and that it is EASTER SUNDAY, when many 'Christians' might reasonably be supposed to be otherwise engaged.

    It's 345pm here, and my lunch is about ready to be taken out of the oven.

    BTW, your Heaven thread has been closed. Go and have a look.
  • Heaven guidelines. "Communal writings – the Ship of Fools Song Book, a progressive novel, or your holiday planning guide." That appeared to cover what I was doing.
    The clue in that guideline is the word "Communal". We have, in the past though not recently, had threads where the community has worked together to some creative end, examples include threads where different people have written different parts of a story where, with very little coordination, something coherent has been developed. That's quite different from someone posting large chunks of something they have written outwith the context of the community here.
    Copyright. Ship of Fools reserves the right to use any material posted on the Ship for it's own purposes. But that does not mean I have surrendered my right to do as I see fit with my work.
    Yes, you're still free to do what you want with your own words. Even though I'm neither a lawyer nor publisher, it seems fairly obvious to me that if you come to publish that elsewhere then there could be potential legal complications if the copyright on part of what you want to publish is also held by someone else. As a rule, I try to avoid doing things which might result in needing to get a lawyer involved at some point in the future. On the other hand, if you're posting extracts as a teaser to make us consider buying the whole work then I also direct you to our rules regarding advertising.

  • Colin SmithColin Smith Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Well, please bear in mind that Hosts & Admins are in various countries, time zones etc., and that it is EASTER SUNDAY, when many 'Christians' might reasonably be supposed to be otherwise engaged.

    It's 345pm here, and my lunch is about ready to be taken out of the oven.

    BTW, your Heaven thread has been closed. Go and have a look.

    I know it's closed.

    Overall, my experience on the Ship has been odd. I rather assumed that if a writer wanted to depict Christians and their relationship with faith and the church then Christians might want him to get it right. That has certainly been the case elsewhere. On the Ship, however, there seems to be an objection to the very idea of someone using the Ship for their own ends.

    It's also an odd position to take when everything here, bar the private forums, is accessible to non-members.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment, so will leave it there.
  • Heaven guidelines. "Communal writings – the Ship of Fools Song Book, a progressive novel, or your holiday planning guide." That appeared to cover what I was doing.
    The clue in that guideline is the word "Communal". We have, in the past though not recently, had threads where the community has worked together to some creative end, examples include threads where different people have written different parts of a story where, with very little coordination, something coherent has been developed. That's quite different from someone posting large chunks of something they have written outwith the context of the community here.
    Copyright. Ship of Fools reserves the right to use any material posted on the Ship for it's own purposes. But that does not mean I have surrendered my right to do as I see fit with my work.
    Yes, you're still free to do what you want with your own words. Even though I'm neither a lawyer nor publisher, it seems fairly obvious to me that if you come to publish that elsewhere then there could be potential legal complications if the copyright on part of what you want to publish is also held by someone else. As a rule, I try to avoid doing things which might result in needing to get a lawyer involved at some point in the future. On the other hand, if you're posting extracts as a teaser to make us consider buying the whole work then I also direct you to our rules regarding advertising.

    Thank you. I had misunderstood the guidelines. The copyright issue does not concern me. The work is not for sale so I am not advertising.
  • @Colin Smith - can you not see that your best bet is to work this out with Hosts and Admins?

    Doh!

    They have not been in touch.

    We were "in touch" right from the moment a host intervened on the thread on question.

    We certainly aren't going to take the initiative to sound out every registered user about their posting intentions. We expect users to read the 10 Commandments, FAQs, and Guidelines, and generally expect them to behave like responsible adults.

    It's not unusal for people to message H&A's for advice, including potential copyright issues, if they're not sure about posting something and we are happy to provide it (within reasonable limits).
    Thank you. I had misunderstood the guidelines. The copyright issue does not concern me. The work is not for sale so I am not advertising.

    As I understand it, the fact that something isn't for sale doesn't mean copyright isn't a potential issue. And advertising definitely isn't restricted to things that are for sale. Neither is self-publicity. Both are covered by Commandment 9.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    We were "in touch" right from the moment a host intervened on the thread on question.

    We certainly aren't going to take the initiative to sound out every registered user about their posting intentions. We expect users to read the 10 Commandments, FAQs, and Guidelines, and generally expect them to behave like responsible adults.

    It's not unusal for people to message H&A's for advice, including potential copyright issues, if they're not sure about posting something and we are happy to provide it (within reasonable limits).
    Thank you. I had misunderstood the guidelines. The copyright issue does not concern me. The work is not for sale so I am not advertising.

    As I understand it, the fact that something isn't for sale doesn't mean copyright isn't a potential issue. And advertising definitely isn't restricted to things that are for sale. Neither is self-publicity. Both are covered by Commandment 9.

    Apologies. I meant I have not been messaged.
    I was not advertising and I was not engaging in self-promotion. I was responding to a couple of direct attacks on my writing (which no one here had read) by Rossweise and Doc Tor. I wanted to show that I can write believable Christian characters. I also hoped other readers might find it amusing. There were no other reasons. I have read the ten commandments and do not believe I break any of them.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Do you have a blog, to which those interested might be directed? AFAIK, a link to that would be within Ship's guidelines.

    Your characters may well be amusing, and believable, but this, it seems is, not the place in which to establish that!

    Am I missing something here?
    :neutral:
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 21
    I was not advertising and I was not engaging in self-promotion.
    It's hard to know what posting around 2500 words of your own work in multiple consecutive posts counts as if it's not self-promotion.

    What is more, you placed the copyright symbol after each excerpt: in other words, you were attempting to assert your ownership rights over work fixed on a medium that belongs to Ship of Fools. This despite your claim above that copyright was not an issue for you.

    These boards don't exist for you or anyone else to post 2500 consecutive words of anything, still less to try and foist (allegedly) copyrighted material on us. They exist to have online discussions.
  • Do you have a blog, to which those interested might be directed? AFAIK, a link to that would be within Ship's guidelines.

    Your characters may well be amusing, and believable, but this, it seems is, not the place in which to establish that!

    Am I missing something here?
    :neutral:

    I agree with your point. I would also say this is not the place to attack someone's ability to write fiction, as Rossweisse and Doc Tor did, without having read any of it.

    Anyway, I won't be posting any more extracts. I do have a blog but nothing from this particular novel is on it.

    I've also concluded that those who dislike the idea of a non-Christian coming here to find out and ask questions will never approve of what they have done with the information gained.

    The irony is, if I wanted to mock Christians and Christianity I could do so without bothering to ask Christians anything.
  • Colin SmithColin Smith Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Eutychus wrote: »
    I was not advertising and I was not engaging in self-promotion.
    It's hard to know what posting around 2500 words of your own work in multiple consecutive posts counts as if it's not self-promotion.

    What is more, you placed the copyright symbol after each excerpt: in other words, you were attempting to assert your ownership rights over work fixed on a medium that belongs to Ship of Fools. This despite your claim above that copyright was not an issue for you.

    These boards don't exist for you or anyone else to post 2500 consecutive words of anything, still less to try and foist (allegedly) copyrighted material on us. They exist to have online discussions.

    So what you're saying is anyone is free to slag off someone's creative work sight-unseen, but that person cannot reply by actually showing the work in question to prove they are wrong.

    The reason it was 2500 words is those scenes cover the Easter Vigil, which happened last night. It seemed appropriate to take the action right through to dawn.
  • People are free to do what they like provided they don't disobey the Ten Commandments, and you are free to respond subject to the same conditions.

    You were perfectly entitled to call your critics to Hell.

    What you're not allowed to do is post huge walls of text in response, still less attempt to copyright it.

    As has been suggested, keep your walls of text on a blog. This is not the right place for them, still less for you to attempt to copyright text you post here.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    I would also say this is not the place to attack someone's ability to write fiction, as Rossweisse and Doc Tor did, without having read any of it.

    'This place' being Hell which is exactly the only place on the entire ship where you can do that. If you'd like to continue this line of thought, you know the way.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    @Doc Tor is a published author. We have read and critiqued one of his books, at least, as a monthly book club book. And your point is?
  • Okay. I will continue to trawl the Ship for useful information but maybe I don't need to post here.
  • What you need to do is simple: make sure anything you do post complies with the rules.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    Well, others may differ, but I suppose being 'trawled for useful information' by someone who isn't posting is an occupational hazard, IYSWIM.
    :frowning:

    @Colin Smith , as @Eutychus says, just be careful that you don't, in so trawling, breach others' copyright.....
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Colin, were you in Hell when they were attacking you? Hell is the place where people make personal attacks, if they are annoyed with someone - it says in the guidelines. Take with a pinch of salt. Even if you had the talent of Shakespeare, if people are annoyed with you and want to insult you, posting your work isn't going to change their minds. They need to respect you as a person, in this sort of community. People here have all sorts of talents, but the community isn't about that. It's about people's interaction with each other.

    When you first joined the ship, you made a thread asking if it was appropriate to post your fiction here, and we all had a long discussion where people explained in detail the purpose of the threads we have here, the concept of community, the fact that it would be more appropriate to post your fiction in a writers group, etc.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    What you need to do is simple: make sure anything you do post complies with the rules.

    That would also work. But I'm tired of fighting battles and this is getting to be a distraction.
  • Well, others may differ, but I suppose being 'trawled for useful information' by someone who isn't posting is an occupational hazard, IYSWIM.
    :frowning:

    @Colin Smith , as @Eutychus says, just be careful that you don't, in so trawling, breach others' copyright.....

    Plagiarism should always be avoided.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 21
    In all fairness, a request for consideration of Mr Smith's novel was first published by him in Heaven.

    But ISTM that the wearisome lengths of the extracts pointed to something outside the Ship's guidelines. I make no comment as to the accuracy, interesting (or not) nature etc. etc. of those extracts.
  • fineline wrote: »
    Colin, were you in Hell when they were attacking you? Hell is the place where people make personal attacks, if they are annoyed with someone - it says in the guidelines. Take with a pinch of salt. Even if you had the talent of Shakespeare, if people are annoyed with you and want to insult you, posting your work isn't going to change their minds. They need to respect you as a person, in this sort of community. People here have all sorts of talents, but the community isn't about that. It's about people's interaction with each other.

    When you first joined the ship, you made a thread asking if it was appropriate to post your fiction here, and we all had a long discussion where people explained in detail the purpose of the threads we have here, the concept of community, the fact that it would be more appropriate to post your fiction in a writers group, etc.

    Yes, it was hell. I don't see that as an excuse.
    As I said, I posted the work in response to attacks. I don't believe there is ever an excuse for personal attacks.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    What you need to do is simple: make sure anything you do post complies with the rules.

    That would also work. But I'm tired of fighting battles and this is getting to be a distraction.

    In other words, your own work is more important to you than adapting to others' legitimate expectations ("fighting battles"). That kind of explains why you're having trouble fitting in.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Eutychus wrote: »
    What you need to do is simple: make sure anything you do post complies with the rules.

    That would also work. But I'm tired of fighting battles and this is getting to be a distraction.

    Is there a particular reason why your presence here should be a battle, or that you need to fight?

    Is this a question of you having difficulty understanding the rules?

    Or is it more that there is a discrepancy between what you would like this community to be, in your ideal world where communities are Colin-Smith-shaped (and believe me, I'd love a fineline-shaped community too!), and the reality of what the community actually is?
  • Aye, there's the rub.

    Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.....
  • Eutychus wrote: »

    In other words, your own work is more important to you than adapting to others' legitimate expectations ("fighting battles"). That kind of explains why you're having trouble fitting in.

    It is fair to say that I am uncommonly self-centred and am not inclined to meet society or family's legitimate expectations, whatever they might be.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 21
    Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.....
    @Bishops Finger, a word to the wise: I'm tired of your constant sniping at other posters outside Hell.

    It's not funny, not welcoming, and not accommodating, and you are already in my little black book because of it.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    fineline wrote: »
    Colin, were you in Hell when they were attacking you? Hell is the place where people make personal attacks, if they are annoyed with someone - it says in the guidelines. Take with a pinch of salt. Even if you had the talent of Shakespeare, if people are annoyed with you and want to insult you, posting your work isn't going to change their minds. They need to respect you as a person, in this sort of community. People here have all sorts of talents, but the community isn't about that. It's about people's interaction with each other.

    When you first joined the ship, you made a thread asking if it was appropriate to post your fiction here, and we all had a long discussion where people explained in detail the purpose of the threads we have here, the concept of community, the fact that it would be more appropriate to post your fiction in a writers group, etc.

    Yes, it was hell. I don't see that as an excuse.
    As I said, I posted the work in response to attacks. I don't believe there is ever an excuse for personal attacks.

    Right, so you disagree with the existence of, and reasoning behind, the Hell forum. Did you see the thread Rublev started, asking the purpose of Hell, from a similar viewpoint? People elaborated in detail on why it was decided to have such a forum. You may or may not agree, but it will show you the history and the thinking behind it, and the fact that it's not about to change just because some people don't like it. Also worth bearing in mind that it is possible to be a member of this community (if you wish to be) and never post in Hell, even if you are called to Hell. You can avoid it altogether.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 21
    I agree with your point. I would also say this is not the place to attack someone's ability to write fiction, as Rossweisse and Doc Tor did, without having read any of it.

    In Ship hosting terms, the bolded part above constitutes a personal attack.

    And it's by you.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.....
    @Bishops Finger, a word to the wise: I'm tired of your constant sniping at other posters outside Hell.

    It's not funny, not welcoming, and not accommodating, and you are already in my little black book because of it.

    Word to the wise noted, and taken on board.

    Sorry about that - I seem to have Too Much Time on my hands....

  • Colin SmithColin Smith Shipmate
    edited April 21
    fineline wrote: »

    Is there a particular reason why your presence here should be a battle, or that you need to fight?

    Is this a question of you having difficulty understanding the rules?

    Or is it more that there is a discrepancy between what you would like this community to be, in your ideal world where communities are Colin-Smith-shaped (and believe me, I'd love a fineline-shaped community too!), and the reality of what the community actually is?

    I have difficulty with the community aspect, not least because I have never regarded myself as, or wanted to be a member of a community. Having lived in eight counties and some twenty towns, villages and cities, in the last 25 years I have rarely been anywhere long enough to become part of the community.

    As "communities" go, I rather prefer the competing voices of Facebook. Of cpurse, Facebook groups can gather around shared interests, but no one in the group offers much in the way of commitment. And no, I think I'd hate a community that was "Colin-Smith-shaped".

  • fineline wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    Colin, were you in Hell when they were attacking you? Hell is the place where people make personal attacks, if they are annoyed with someone - it says in the guidelines. Take with a pinch of salt. Even if you had the talent of Shakespeare, if people are annoyed with you and want to insult you, posting your work isn't going to change their minds. They need to respect you as a person, in this sort of community. People here have all sorts of talents, but the community isn't about that. It's about people's interaction with each other.

    When you first joined the ship, you made a thread asking if it was appropriate to post your fiction here, and we all had a long discussion where people explained in detail the purpose of the threads we have here, the concept of community, the fact that it would be more appropriate to post your fiction in a writers group, etc.

    Yes, it was hell. I don't see that as an excuse.
    As I said, I posted the work in response to attacks. I don't believe there is ever an excuse for personal attacks.

    Right, so you disagree with the existence of, and reasoning behind, the Hell forum. Did you see the thread Rublev started, asking the purpose of Hell, from a similar viewpoint? People elaborated in detail on why it was decided to have such a forum. You may or may not agree, but it will show you the history and the thinking behind it, and the fact that it's not about to change just because some people don't like it. Also worth bearing in mind that it is possible to be a member of this community (if you wish to be) and never post in Hell, even if you are called to Hell. You can avoid it altogether.

    Yes, I wish I had never posted in hell. I didn't even notice the thread I was commenting on was in hell. The idea that different rules of behaviour apply in different places is completely new to me. I act and speak the same way anywhere I go online.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Please keep this thread for relevant Ship's Business - such as the clarifications about Crew instructions, copyright, promotion, etcetera. Angst about the existence of uncomfortable conversations or tiresome soliloquies about who we really are should be discussed somewhere else. Preferably a blog. In GeoCities.

    -RooK
    Styx Host
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    fineline wrote: »

    Is there a particular reason why your presence here should be a battle, or that you need to fight?

    Is this a question of you having difficulty understanding the rules?

    Or is it more that there is a discrepancy between what you would like this community to be, in your ideal world where communities are Colin-Smith-shaped (and believe me, I'd love a fineline-shaped community too!), and the reality of what the community actually is?

    I have difficulty with the community aspect, not least because I have never regarded myself as, or wanted to be a member of a community. Having lived in eight counties and some twenty towns, villages and cities, in the last 25 years I have rarely been anywhere long enough to become part of the community.

    As "communities" go, I rather prefer the competing voices of Facebook. Of cpurse, Facebook groups can gather around shared interests, but no one in the group offers much in the way of commitment. And no, I think I'd hate a community that was "Colin-Smith-shaped".

    Ah okay. Since you are not interested in being part of a community, does it then actually matter to you if certain members of the community get annoyed with you, misunderstand you, or make derogatory comments about your writing ability without having read your work?

    There are of course a lot of Christian groups on Facebook. In terms of posting your novel, I wonder if you might find an audience there.

  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Sorry, cross-posted with RooK.
  • fineline wrote: »

    Ah okay. Since you are not interested in being part of a community, does it then actually matter to you if certain members of the community get annoyed with you, misunderstand you, or make derogatory comments about your writing ability without having read your work?

    There are of course a lot of Christian groups on Facebook. In terms of posting your novel, I wonder if you might find an audience there.

    Good manners are good manners everywhere. I'm not after an audience. I joined the Ship hoping I could get some advice on depicting Christians and Christianity. It hasn't worked out as I hoped.

    I am coming to the point where I think I shall write as I see fit and if some Christians don't like it, sobeit.
  • RooK wrote: »
    Please keep this thread for relevant Ship's Business - such as the clarifications about Crew instructions, copyright, promotion, etcetera. Angst about the existence of uncomfortable conversations or tiresome soliloquies about who we really are should be discussed somewhere else. Preferably a blog. In GeoCities.

    -RooK
    Styx Host

    Okay.
Sign In or Register to comment.