Sydney Anglican Customs

As an American, I ask this just out of curiosity: I know there are parishes in the Diocese of Sydney that are out of sync with the predominant evangelical way of doing things down there. When the bishops take part in services in traditional BCP or Anglo-Catholic parishes (IIRC, there are some), do they wear episcopal vestments and preside as one would expect in the particular milieu?
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Comments

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    When the Abp or regional Bp visit St Sanity, they wear what I'd call Canterbury or Convocation rig, the sort of vestments CoE bps used wear to the House of Lords. No mitre, no crozier.

    None has presided to my knowledge (trying to think hard who presides at the induction of a new rector). That's done by the rector concerned. The Bp will do the episcopal part, confirmation etc, and preach.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Deep, deep thinking while in the shower brings back a memory that the assistant presided at the induction. A small point is that the (A)Bp will introduce the Peace and also give the blessing at the end - even hold up his right hand to do so but no signing mind you.

    Visiting bishops from other dioceses do what they'd normally do - mitres, croziers, signing and so forth. One or 2 of the older parishioners will call the visitor My Lord and kneel as they process past.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    But NEVER wear a chasuble!
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    It did always intrigue me the chasuble was verboten (in 1911 Google tells me) -- as if it possessed some intrinsic power to convert the masses to Catholicism. And the most vociferous against it seemed quite content to wear a suit, and collar at a stretch, in their ministry rather than more regular clerical garb.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited May 9
    Many will get dressed up to take services, even to the extent of wearing leather shoes. Some will even wear a tie. And I jest not, but was at a funeral locally where the minister wore a red tie. The family, most of whom were from out of Sydney, were horrified. They'd never thought of asking how he would be vested.

    The first banning of the chasuble was in 1911, by the the Abp. In the late '40s Synod passed a canon formalising the ban.
  • LothlorienLothlorien All Saints Host
    A red tie at a funeral is almost dignified compared with the beach shirt and chinos at a wedding, or the blue checked shirt worn by the preacher at a Cathedral in what is now called Sydney’s geographical centre. He had been sitting in pew in front of me with his wife and I would have liked to suggest they get a room somewhere, such was the behaviour before he got up to preach. On way out after service I asked at the door when they had communion. Every couple of months , I was told, as they preferred to preach the gospel. I nearly fell over and suggested that the whole supper was preaching the gospel.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Lothlorien wrote: »
    On way out after service I asked at the door when they had communion. Every couple of months , I was told, as they preferred to preach the gospel. I nearly fell over and suggested that the whole supper was preaching the gospel.

    And they claim to be Anglican???!!!!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes, they do. The one I referred to with a red tie won at a funeral would be one of them. The other in that suburb (near in distance, but now sadly cut off by an expressway) is much more MOTR by most standards. There's not just weekly communion there, but it's one using what was the AAPB or APBA.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    Some years ago I visited a Sydney church and was horrified to hear them announce that the congregation should help themselves to bread and wine as they left the church! I have never before or since heard communion treated in such a manner. Is this still happening anywhere?
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    angloid wrote: »
    Lothlorien wrote: »
    On way out after service I asked at the door when they had communion. Every couple of months , I was told, as they preferred to preach the gospel. I nearly fell over and suggested that the whole supper was preaching the gospel.

    And they claim to be Anglican???!!!!

    I've never been to an Anglican/Episcopal communion service where they didn't read the Gospel and then usually preach on the Gospel and sometimes other Biblical readings. I'd hardly call it an either/or situation.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    Some years ago I visited a Sydney church and was horrified to hear them announce that the congregation should help themselves to bread and wine as they left the church! I have never before or since heard communion treated in such a manner. Is this still happening anywhere?

    I'd not heard of it. That's no guarantee of course.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    I've heard of it in a pentecostal church ... which Sydney would probably feel more sympathy for than ang ang caff or certainly lib caff church
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    Some years ago I visited a Sydney church and was horrified to hear them announce that the congregation should help themselves to bread and wine as they left the church! I have never before or since heard communion treated in such a manner. Is this still happening anywhere?

    Unrelated, but at an NYC Reform Synagogue I visited once for their Friday evening service, on the way out of the Synagogue at the end in the vestibule the Rabbi blessed a loaf of challah and wine in little sippy cups which the congregation shared. There was a bit of mingling afterwards but not much. I don't know if it was supposed to replace the family Shabbat dinner prayers or supplement them. I don't know how common this, especially since I am not Jewish! This was also a pretty liberal congregation with a band with drums and guitars, although the service, aside from the sermon, was mostly sung in Hebrew (led by a cantor) to traditional (or at least traditional-sounding) melodies.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Sounds like kiddush, which is pretty common in some form or another.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    It has long seemed to me that the Sinny "Anglicans" are mostly a bunch of unregenerate Calvinists who pretend to be Anglican in order to hang onto the real estate. True Anglicanism, I believe, accepts some diversity in worship; the Sinny boys (and the ones in charge are all boys) demand lockstep conformity. Fie!

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited May 16
    I'd not call them Calvinist. Their general stance on the Eucharist is Zwinglian. Is penal substitutionary atonement (another of their touchpoints) Calvinist - again, I'd think it closer to Zwingli than any other. The disdain for a formal liturgy and beauty in worship is very anabaptist. If they're in any tradition, I'd say it was the Puritan teaching of the early 17th century.

    You're certainly right in talking of their lack of tolerance for diversity.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    (of Sydney Anglicans)
    Gee D wrote: »
    I'd not call them Calvinist.<snip>

    You're certainly right in talking of their lack of tolerance for diversity.

    That last point is two words too long.

    Three years ago an old friend who had married an Australian came to stay for a month, someone I thought I knew and had remembered with fondness. Talk about changed: she made the average National Front member look like a dangerously left-wing liberal wet, and the attitudes were even more extreme when it came to "sin" (which seemed to include practically everything) and "going against God's law" (I think if God had come down he'd have been found to be against His law too according to her).

    Never again :grimace:
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    An anecdote is not data. Despite strong disagreement with the theological position of the Moore College clique, for as long as I can recall, the archbishops and hierarchy have been liberal in all but the dead horses issues, strong proponents of fair treatment for refugees, better social security provisions and so forth. While they have tried to look non-partisan in their statements there's not much doubt where their votes in the ballot box go. I don't think you can attack the church establishment here as having National Front policies. I stick with what I said.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    The first banning of the chasuble was in 1911, by the the Abp. In the late '40s Synod passed a canon formalising the ban.
    Is this still in effect? If so, how do Anglo-Catholics vest in the diocese? Or do they simply ignore the ban?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes, still in force and on licensing a priest, the Abp obtains a written undertaking to observe the Ordinance. It is observed as any failure would be fatal to continuing ministry, apart from breaching an undertaking. Usual vesting is cassock, stole and cope. If it's a particularly hot day commonsense prevails and the cope's dispensed with - as is the chasuble in the rest of the country.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    So I'm guessing that there are a few continuing Anglo-Catholic bodies in Sydney. I would be surprised to hear that there weren't any full on Anglo-Catholics in the city.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    There is a minority of A-C churches here. The Anglican Church League is doing its best to eradicate them but not getting all that far. Where there have been losses is in the ranks of the MOTR churches and also those in the old-fashioned and once prevalent old-fashioned low-church group. This latter is very different to the Moore College lot now dominant.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    ... Usual vesting is cassock, stole and cope. If it's a particularly hot day commonsense prevails and the cope's dispensed with - as is the chasuble in the rest of the country.
    No surplice?!? That's not Low Church - that's basically Calvinist.


  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Sorry for any confusion - the cassock, stole and cope is usual for the A-C churches. MOTR and trad Sydney would vest in black cassock, surplice and scarf - often just a black scarf but quite a few would change for seasons. The Moore College ones would think a pair of shoes and a shirt tucked in very formal but AFAIK, none wears thongs (US flip-flops) for a service. Does that cover your query?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    ... Usual vesting is cassock, stole and cope. If it's a particularly hot day commonsense prevails and the cope's dispensed with - as is the chasuble in the rest of the country.
    No surplice?!? That's not Low Church - that's basically Calvinist.
    Not unless worn with a (Geneva) gown and bands. :wink:

    Though as I understand it, cassock, gown and bands was how Anglican priests in the 18th C typically vested.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I wasn't around then, but think you're right on that.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    There is a minority of A-C churches here.
    So I'm guessing that people that some who could have been Anglo-Catholics have been, ironically, driven to the Roman Catholic Church?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No - why would they? There's a bit of interchange of course, but mostly in the other direction - those who feel a calling but want to marry or are women.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    And you have to remember that Sydney is but 1 of 23 dioceses. The only others which follow Sydney are Armidale in NSW and North Western Australia (which is the largest diocese in the Anglican Communion by land area even though the Anglican population is small). Others in NSW range from mixed but mostly MOTR to high (Canberra-Goulburn) through to very Catholic (Riverina).
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    So they drive them out of their city instead, then?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    kmann wrote: »
    So they drive them out of their city instead, then?

    ?
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    And you have to remember that Sydney is but 1 of 23 dioceses. The only others which follow Sydney are Armidale in NSW and North Western Australia ...

    ... and, increasingly, NT :disappointed:
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    oh, and Tasmania :cry:
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I'm not so sure about Tassie and thought it was still largely back in C18 England, but gradually accepting electric lights in churches. That's sad news about the NT. AFAIK, the Cathedral is still strongly A-C.
  • Barnabas_AusBarnabas_Aus Shipmate
    Our friend DD who was at the Cathedral in Darwin was one of the few A-C male clergy remaining in the diocese, but more than half the indigenous clergy are female, so the diocese has not gone down the full Sydney path. It will be interesting to see how things develop. Bishop Greg has vested in both chasuble and mitre, so pure Sydney Anglicanism seems some way off.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited May 27
    Thanks B A - that gives some grounds for hope. Of course, there is nothing against being Moore College in theology but not in governance. Hard but not impossible.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    kmann wrote: »
    So they drive them out of their city instead, then?

    ?
    I refuse to believe there isn't a single Anglo-Catholic in a city with 4.627 million citizens, built, amongst others, by people of English descent. It seems to me, from the comments here, that if you want to be an Anglo-Catholic in Sydney you would have to join a continuing Anglican body. What have I missed?
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    edited May 27
    I refuse to believe there isn't a single Anglo-Catholic in a city with 4.627 million citizens, built, amongst others, by people of English descent. It seems to me, from the comments here, that if you want to be an Anglo-Catholic in Sydney you would have to join a continuing Anglican body. What have I missed?

    Christ Church St Laurence?

  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Our friend DD who was at the Cathedral in Darwin was one of the few A-C male clergy remaining in the diocese, but more than half the indigenous clergy are female, so the diocese has not gone down the full Sydney path. It will be interesting to see how things develop. Bishop Greg has vested in both chasuble and mitre, so pure Sydney Anglicanism seems some way off.

    The "femaleness" is complex, if I can put it that way! There is an "out" in Sydney style probity that permits a woman leadership roles if no men are present - for example standing orders were suspended at one stage in the Diocese of Armidale so a woman could be ordained as a school chaplain for a girls' school. In the remote communities of Arnhemland there are, sadly, often no "functioning" males as a result of decades of substance abuse, imprisonment, suicide and low life expectancy in general. The women have kept alive the flames of functionality and faith, the former in the wider community and the latter of course in the church communities. The communities are often cut off from the rest of the world for many months, at least for land-based travel and even much telecommunication, for many months during The Wet.

    The current bishop certainly represents a liberalised version of Sydney. Just. Which in rough terms means he might wear silly clothes (as they would see it unofficially) in extremis. Clothes at all are something of a struggle in many parts of the diocese, with massive and hot humidity in the north in The Wet, and fierce heat elsewhere, though south of about Katherine it can cool down overnight in the Dry (which becomes "winter" as you move south). So the occasional donning of oddities is not hugely significant, and there's few clergy left in the diocese who would wear a chazzie.

    So it's hard to extrapolate directly from Sydney, but there's no doubt that there's very little non-Sydney presence from the South Australian border north, now.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Sounds as if climate not theology would most influence the choice of vesture anyway! I doubt if I would wear a chasuble in 40 degrees.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    kmann wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    kmann wrote: »
    So they drive them out of their city instead, then?

    ?
    I refuse to believe there isn't a single Anglo-Catholic in a city with 4.627 million citizens, built, amongst others, by people of English descent. It seems to me, from the comments here, that if you want to be an Anglo-Catholic in Sydney you would have to join a continuing Anglican body. What have I missed?

    I think you've missed everything I've said. There is an A-C tradition in the Sydney diocese, but it is very much a minority one. Sydney has been low church almost from its foundation. It very nearly wasn't, with 3 additional priests sent from England in the 1840s, all of them very much of the Oxford Movement. Sadly, 2 of the 3 swam the Tiber very shortly after arrival and there was a severe reaction. But amongst the low church majority, there was a strong MOTR minority as well as a much smaller A-C group. Starting in the 1980s the Moore College group became much more powerful, taking over many of the traditional low church and MOTR parishes .

    I don't know of any "continuing Anglican body" in Sydney. There s one group, dedicated to Our Lady, which is not part of the diocese but AFAIK is not affiliated with any continuing Anglican body. There are very few members of such a body anywhere in Aust for that matter.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    But then I was right in my first question, that they do in fact ignore the rules? Because I see at least one chasuble on the website of Christ Church St Laurence.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    We've never seen one worn there, nor at any other of the A-C churches. Even clergy visiting from another diocese don't wear them but stick to a cope. The rules are not ignored, but I don't know that you need to wear a chasuble to be A-C.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    You probably do not need one but to be denied one surely is a denial of the Anglo-Catholic heritage.

    But it seems pretty obvious that Christ Church St Laurence (in the Sydney diocese) ignores the ban on chasubles, as evidence from one of the pictures on its website. In the third picture on the front page, almost to the end, you see a man holding the processional cross. He might be a deacon, but he is wearing a chasuble.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    But if I'm wrong, it seems then, that proper Anglo-Catholics are ineed unwelcomed in the diocese and are either driven out of the city or into other denominations.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    kmann wrote: »
    But it seems pretty obvious that Christ Church St Laurence (in the Sydney diocese) ignores the ban on chasubles, as evidence from one of the pictures on its website. In the third picture on the front page, almost to the end, you see a man holding the processional cross. He might be a deacon, but he is wearing a chasuble.

    Looks like a tunicle to me (akin to a deacon's dalmatic but simpler in detail and worn by subdeacons and often crucifers, who may be the same person in some parishes). Difference from a chasuble is that a tunicle has sleeves.

    But use of a tunicle would, I expect, be objectionable in Sydney as it's generally part of a set with the chasuble and dalmatic in a solemn Mass. Or perhaps the letter of the law is still upheld, with the chasuble being the one specifically banned vestment?
  • Oblatus wrote: »
    kmann wrote: »
    But it seems pretty obvious that Christ Church St Laurence (in the Sydney diocese) ignores the ban on chasubles, as evidence from one of the pictures on its website. In the third picture on the front page, almost to the end, you see a man holding the processional cross. He might be a deacon, but he is wearing a chasuble.

    Looks like a tunicle to me (akin to a deacon's dalmatic but simpler in detail and worn by subdeacons and often crucifers, who may be the same person in some parishes). Difference from a chasuble is that a tunicle has sleeves.

    But use of a tunicle would, I expect, be objectionable in Sydney as it's generally part of a set with the chasuble and dalmatic in a solemn Mass. Or perhaps the letter of the law is still upheld, with the chasuble being the one specifically banned vestment?


    As I understand it, CCSL has three sacred ministers with the celebrant attired in a cope and the deacon and subdeacon in the traditional vestments, very much upholding the letter of the law.... In every other respect, it is very much an "advanced" Anglo-Catholic parish.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Oblatus wrote: »
    kmann wrote: »
    But it seems pretty obvious that Christ Church St Laurence (in the Sydney diocese) ignores the ban on chasubles, as evidence from one of the pictures on its website. In the third picture on the front page, almost to the end, you see a man holding the processional cross. He might be a deacon, but he is wearing a chasuble.

    Looks like a tunicle to me (akin to a deacon's dalmatic but simpler in detail and worn by subdeacons and often crucifers, who may be the same person in some parishes). Difference from a chasuble is that a tunicle has sleeves.

    But use of a tunicle would, I expect, be objectionable in Sydney as it's generally part of a set with the chasuble and dalmatic in a solemn Mass. Or perhaps the letter of the law is still upheld, with the chasuble being the one specifically banned vestment?


    As I understand it, CCSL has three sacred ministers with the celebrant attired in a cope and the deacon and subdeacon in the traditional vestments, very much upholding the letter of the law.... In every other respect, it is very much an "advanced" Anglo-Catholic parish.

    It most definitely is a tunicle. It's very similar to a dalmatic, so similar that it's a tunicle when worn by an acolyte and a dalmatic when worn by a deacon (or the other way round, I can never remember). And your comments about CCSL are quite correct.

    kmann - Anglo-Catholics are not at all popular with the dominant group in the diocese. But very, very few make the move to Rome or elsewhere. They would do so for teaching not because they felt "driven out". I imagine very few low-church Anglicans in Chichester or Brisbane for example leave the Anglican church either.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    Zappa wrote: »
    The "femaleness" is complex, if I can put it that way! There is an "out" in Sydney style probity that permits a woman leadership roles if no men are present ...
    Oh, so Girls Still Have Cooties, but we'll let them serve if we get desperate enough. ("Women aren't fully human, but sometimes they're a reasonable facsimile.")
    ...So it's hard to extrapolate directly from Sydney, but there's no doubt that there's very little non-Sydney presence from the South Australian border north, now.
    Judging from what I know of Sinny, that's pretty horrible.


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