Let's assume I'm guilty of Islamophobia without realising it.

Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
What is the consensus please?

Plough up from here.

Comments

  • Just pig(sorry, couldn't help it)-ignorant.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 11
    Of what? I live in a Muslim street. I lived in a Muslim house for two years 10 years ago. I work, walk, talk, eat with Muslims. As I have for 12 years. I read what they believe. I've studied fiq. I've stood at the back of the mosque. I've been to Eid festivals. I'm sure there is much I'm ignorant of. What is it? And yes I've worked in Kuwait and holidayed in Morocco.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    While I'm not sure Islam has fractured into quite as many competing bits as Christianity seems to have done, I think what you're guilty of is assuming that the bits you've encountered on your home turf are like and/or represent all the other bits as well.

    Just as the Latin-mass Catholic devotee bears little theological resemblance to the MOT Methodist, and neither has much in common with a typical Quaker, Mormon, or Congregationalist, your Wahabists, Sufis, Sunnis, Shiites, etc. also follow different practices, emphasize different teachings, etc. People differ. Quelle surprise.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    In the house I was a father figure to Muslim postgrads from Jordan, Uzbekistan, Egypt; I'd take them to dinner, down the pub, Nando's, share Ramadan breakfast in the back yard, talk about anything and everything, smoke shisha. I'm sure I missed much.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I'll have to ask Faez and Gulshan and Abdi and Ali and Shirin and Mrs. Ahmed and the Doctors Shah what I'm missing at the street party in July.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited May 11
    Mate you just failed to prosecute your argument, and instead shriveled at Croesos' shameless deployment of statistics, a well known cheat.

    I recommend first looking at the detail behind the statistic, and whether there is a competing set of figures. You should be able to make a distinction of some sort. Perhaps there is survey materiel limited to Birmingham or the UK that might help. This is rarely an option I pursue as it involves work. I prefer the spouting off approach.

    Given that Croesus is involved, you will have to do some work. This one is a research freak, who can link a relevant bit of research to a post in less than 15 seconds. I have not done the work, but surely what is being surveyed here is the opinion of people who identify as Muslim, not necessarily believers, or adherents. If that pans out (you do need to look at the stuff, however uncool that might be, and it is very uncool), it should be easy to say something like, 'well, it does look like Islam has the Christian disease, and indeed the disease of most (no research remember) major and ancient religions (the Bahai are probably liberal): a persistent theological hatred of women and non-normative sexuality.

    I can be contacted by PM at any time. I charge EUR20 per 6 minute unit of thinking, research and writing time. I do not accept payment in GBP. That is one dodgy currency.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    While I'm not sure Islam has fractured into quite as many competing bits as Christianity seems to have done, I think what you're guilty of is assuming that the bits you've encountered on your home turf are like and/or represent all the other bits as well.
    This.

    Martin, I don’t think anyone is suggesting you’ve “missed” things in your many interactions with Muslims. What people are saying is that you’re making a mistake in presenting your experiences and personal observations as accurately reflecting the Islamic world as a whole, such that you can say “Muslims are…” or “all Muslims are…,” rather than “the Muslims I have known are…” or “my experience with Muslims has been….” I’ve seen you do this with other groups as well.

    Just because all Muslims you’ve interacted with (or whatever other group you might encounter) have fit a particular mold, that doesn’t mean all Muslims in the West or in the world fit that mold.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    The other thing to consider is that when the Muslims you do encounter (wherever you encounter them) all seem to resemble each other closely in some way is that something may be amiss with the lenses through which you're viewing them.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    The hints Martin has dropped don't sound like casual relationships.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    The hints Martin has dropped don't sound like casual relationships.

    I've been well fed at Eid, but I wouldn't necessarily presume that the small number of people I know well are representative of a religion of 1bn.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Thank you all.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    The hints Martin has dropped don't sound like casual relationships.

    I've been well fed at Eid, but I wouldn't necessarily presume that the small number of people I know well are representative of a religion of 1bn.

    Yes me too, but I find having good friends and neighbours who are Muslim certainly helps me see that fact - and to lose my fear of the ‘other’ which, I think, we all have - even if it’s small and mild.

  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Of what? I live in a Muslim street. I lived in a Muslim house for two years 10 years ago. I work, walk, talk, eat with Muslims. As I have for 12 years. I read what they believe. I've studied fiq. I've stood at the back of the mosque. I've been to Eid festivals. I'm sure there is much I'm ignorant of. What is it? And yes I've worked in Kuwait and holidayed in Morocco.

    Some of my best friends are …… (insert name of persecuted group here)
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    You don't know any then?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Martin54 wrote: »
    You don't know any then?

    Your feigned ignorance to the characterization of a well-known racist trope is small and petty. Perhaps you are giving in to your thoughtless defensive urges, or perhaps you really are just that pathetic.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I live in a Muslim street. I lived in a Muslim house for two years 10 years ago. I work, walk, talk, eat with Muslims. As I have for 12 years. I read what they believe. I've studied fiq. I've stood at the back of the mosque. I've been to Eid festivals.

    Even so, the fact that all (most?) of the local Muslims you know are people you consider to be not just homophobic but "implacabl[y]" so doesn't really support your generalization that all (most?) Muslims living in "the West" are gay haters. After all, the other common factor aside from their adherence to Islam is that they all know you. Maybe there's observer bias involved.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    This. And that when he decides what his view is on an issue it becomes fact. Not opinion. When I first encountered him on the Ship he was a "damnationist". "Damnationism" was truth 'cause that view was consistent in the Bible to him although many of us see the inconsistency of God's love there, he didn't. Then something cut the Gordian knot of using the Bible as definitive reference and now materialism is fact. Though I don't know how God gets a bye without being supernatural he is still somehow in Martin's cosmos. I await him falling into actual atheism since that would seem to be the next logical step. And then atheism will be fact.

    I find his contributions interesting but a bit puffed with hubris.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    You don't know any then?

    Your feigned ignorance to the characterization of a well-known racist trope is small and petty. Perhaps you are giving in to your thoughtless defensive urges, or perhaps you really are just that pathetic.

    Then you are in excellent company RooK.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Lyda wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    This. And that when he decides what his view is on an issue it becomes fact. Not opinion. When I first encountered him on the Ship he was a "damnationist". "Damnationism" was truth 'cause that view was consistent in the Bible to him although many of us see the inconsistency of God's love there, he didn't. Then something cut the Gordian knot of using the Bible as definitive reference and now materialism is fact. Though I don't know how God gets a bye without being supernatural he is still somehow in Martin's cosmos. I await him falling into actual atheism since that would seem to be the next logical step. And then atheism will be fact.

    I find his contributions interesting but a bit puffed with hubris.

    No you didn't. Unless you mean annihilationist.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Lyda wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    This. And that when he decides what his view is on an issue it becomes fact. Not opinion. When I first encountered him on the Ship he was a "damnationist". "Damnationism" was truth 'cause that view was consistent in the Bible to him although many of us see the inconsistency of God's love there, he didn't. Then something cut the Gordian knot of using the Bible as definitive reference and now materialism is fact. Though I don't know how God gets a bye without being supernatural he is still somehow in Martin's cosmos. I await him falling into actual atheism since that would seem to be the next logical step. And then atheism will be fact.

    I find his contributions interesting but a bit puffed with hubris.

    Guilty. I am too attached to myself that's for sure. To my weightless, worthless thoughts and feelings. Too desperate.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Elder daughter has married into a Muslim family (mother and father from Bangladesh). Her husband isn't practising but his parents, one of his sisters and most of his extended family is.

    His family is different, and there's no disguising it, but they are decent, hospitable and law-abiding (English and Sharia) but the main problem is with some folk at our shack :(
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    There is a well established interfaith dialogue project called Scriptural Reasoning whereby interested Moslems, Jews and Christians can meet together to discuss what their sacred texts say about common themes like Creation, Abraham's Journeys, Moses' Encounter with God, Peacemaking, Pilgrimage, Reconciliation and Refugees. The website has a range of text packs listed under Resources and they would also be interesting material for a Bible Study group to explore.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    You don't know any then?

    Your feigned ignorance to the characterization of a well-known racist trope is small and petty. Perhaps you are giving in to your thoughtless defensive urges, or perhaps you really are just that pathetic.

    Then you are in excellent company RooK.

    Well Rook, I was very saddened, more than you can possibly know, by your response, but that's my responsibility all round, starting this thread and all.

    That well known racist - antisemitic - trope, Goering's I thought, turns out to be former Klansman Hugo Black's, nominated for the Supreme Court in 1937.

    Aye, fair enough, thoughtless defensive urges and pathetic.

    Having that shit thrown at me by ExclamationMark, of all people, caught me out.

    And I should stop digging I'm sure, but hey. I'm hurt mate. Diddums eh?
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Lyda wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    This. And that when he decides what his view is on an issue it becomes fact. Not opinion. When I first encountered him on the Ship he was a "damnationist". "Damnationism" was truth 'cause that view was consistent in the Bible to him although many of us see the inconsistency of God's love there, he didn't. Then something cut the Gordian knot of using the Bible as definitive reference and now materialism is fact. Though I don't know how God gets a bye without being supernatural he is still somehow in Martin's cosmos. I await him falling into actual atheism since that would seem to be the next logical step. And then atheism will be fact.

    I find his contributions interesting but a bit puffed with hubris.

    Guilty. I am too attached to myself that's for sure. To my weightless, worthless thoughts and feelings. Too desperate.

    Martin it's the same old stuff all over again dredging up the contents of your own psyche. Give it a rest or find someone to talk to irl
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 15
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I live in a Muslim street. I lived in a Muslim house for two years 10 years ago. I work, walk, talk, eat with Muslims. As I have for 12 years. I read what they believe. I've studied fiq. I've stood at the back of the mosque. I've been to Eid festivals.

    Even so, the fact that all (most?) of the local Muslims you know are people you consider to be not just homophobic but "implacabl[y]" so doesn't really support your generalization that all (most?) Muslims living in "the West" are gay haters. After all, the other common factor aside from their adherence to Islam is that they all know you. Maybe there's observer bias involved.

    Thank you Croesos.

    I don't characterize any of the many Muslims I know as gay haters.

    Neither did I say or mean that any people are implacably homophobic.

    Did I.

    That's not a question.

    I said Islam was. By its text. By its teaching. As are Judaism and Christianity. Which can far more easily transcend and validly re-interpret their texts. Islam cannot. That's not a 'generalization'. It's a fact.

    My boss - whom I love and have been out with in all weathers - went out of his way to express his homophobia (NOW I'm being 'personal'), not for the first time, to me recently. I would NEVER raise the issue or any other matter of religion in an inquisitorial manner. I was multiply shocked by what he said but kept my counsel. I wish I had not, in particular in response to his rhetorical question to me of what Jesus would say to them on His return. The 'smart' remark that occurred to me after was that He would have far more important matters on His mind like the lack of social justice toward Muslims.

    He actually characterized Gay Lib parades in the worst way, based on extreme behaviour, excesses elsewhere. The Leicester parade I've joined is a family affair.

    He actually said that they should be shot. That he'd he'd shoot them.

    And no, I don't regard this as gay hating. Just thoughtless, casual hyperbole. People do not believe 1% of the shit they say if that.

    He has no idea how disturbing I found it. And there's more. He wouldn't allow a gay employee to bring a partner to a works do - before my time, but I've no idea how I'd have handled that, with silent protest at least I hope, declining to attend - and required him to remove a gay themed screen saver, how extreme I don't know. I didn't ask. The rainbow wrist band I bought at the parade frayed straight away, so I'll get a stronger one to wear to work after. We'll see what reaction that gets.

    The first time he raised the issue with me openly in the office, unbidden - it must prey on his mind - it was only to repeat the Pope's and Sentamu's pathetic argument that it endangers the birth rate and contributes nothing to human evolution. And no, I had no clever response then either.

    A very liberal looking lawyer at met at the main masjid expressed his homophobia far more delicately, regretfully I thought.

    This all cognitively biases me for sure.

    What plank does you brother?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 15
    [Gay] Pride parades. Gay Lib dates us! And I met... at?!
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    Link to me doing that please.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I don't characterize any of the many Muslims I know as gay haters.

    Neither did I say or mean that any people are implacably homophobic.

    Did I.

    That's not a question.

    I said Islam was. By its text. By its teaching. As are Judaism and Christianity. Which can far more easily transcend and validly re-interpret their texts. Islam cannot. That's not a 'generalization'. It's a fact.

    Can a religion be implacably homophobic if none (or relatively few) of its adherents are homophobes? That sounds like a dicey proposition, rather like saying that Nazism is implacably anti-Semitic but that you'd never say Nazis themselves are anti-Semites. We're fast approaching the appearance of the argument that Every True Scotsman Western Muslim Is A Homophobe to dismiss the fact that most Scotsmen Western Muslims aren't that homophobic.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    He actually characterized Gay Lib parades in the worst way, based on extreme behaviour, excesses elsewhere. The Leicester parade I've joined is a family affair.

    He actually said that they should be shot. That he'd he'd shoot them.

    And no, I don't regard this as gay hating.

    Just a little casual murder-talk about a despised, frequently murdered and assaulted minority. I think if "they're all horrible people who should be murdered" doesn't ping your hate-o-meter it should be recalibrated.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    no. It's what's preached in the name of the religion that matters, what its doctrinal books teach, all that sort of stuff. That's why you can say that Christianity is homophobic, even though we all know that many of its adherents are not.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 15
    @Crœsos I just can't believe it.

    And swimming upstream, most Nazis weren't Judenhasser?

    Forgive me, but I see every shade of grey. I feel like I'm being presented with a binary choice. Is that all there is?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Forgive me, but I see every shade of grey. I feel like I'm being presented with a binary choice. Is that all there is?

    Not seeing a lot of grey in your analysis. Islam in the West is implacably homophobic according to you. Not just homophobic, but according to you there's nothing that can be done to placate Islam on that matter. And apparently "Islam" is a disembodied entity that somehow manages to "thrive" in the West without adherents following its "implacable" tenets.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Anyone who believes that being gay is wrong, sinful etc. is by definition homophobic.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Lyda wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    @Martin54 , you are generally well-known for being a serial over-generalizer. Given any fragment of information, you have an obsessive urge to extrapolate far beyond even the normal realm of human cognitive bias.

    Perhaps this is the font of what you consider witty commentary. It is probably also connected to your various woes. Regardless, it is a facet of self-knowledge you are long overdue for facing.

    This. And that when he decides what his view is on an issue it becomes fact. Not opinion. When I first encountered him on the Ship he was a "damnationist". "Damnationism" was truth 'cause that view was consistent in the Bible to him although many of us see the inconsistency of God's love there, he didn't. Then something cut the Gordian knot of using the Bible as definitive reference and now materialism is fact. Though I don't know how God gets a bye without being supernatural he is still somehow in Martin's cosmos. I await him falling into actual atheism since that would seem to be the next logical step. And then atheism will be fact.

    I find his contributions interesting but a bit puffed with hubris.

    Guilty. I am too attached to myself that's for sure. To my weightless, worthless thoughts and feelings. Too desperate.

    Martin it's the same old stuff all over again dredging up the contents of your own psyche. Give it a rest or find someone to talk to irl

    God bless you ! (That wasn't the first version).
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Maybe we should just assume you're in need of attention?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I'm sure I am.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Forgive me, but I see every shade of grey. I feel like I'm being presented with a binary choice. Is that all there is?

    Not seeing a lot of grey in your analysis. Islam in the West is implacably homophobic according to you. Not just homophobic, but according to you there's nothing that can be done to placate Islam on that matter. And apparently "Islam" is a disembodied entity that somehow manages to "thrive" in the West without adherents following its "implacable" tenets.

    Whatever mate. You're the clever one.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    He actually characterized Gay Lib parades in the worst way, based on extreme behaviour, excesses elsewhere. The Leicester parade I've joined is a family affair.

    He actually said that they should be shot. That he'd he'd shoot them.

    And no, I don't regard this as gay hating. Just thoughtless, casual hyperbole. People do not believe 1% of the shit they say if that.

    He has no idea how disturbing I found it.
    Of course, the reason he has no idea is because you said nothing. (So how disturbing did you find it, really?)
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Why do you ask with such a presumption of bad will?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    That is your extrapolation, based on what I assume is a projection of your own feelings. @Dave W appears to merely have made a logical deduction based on pointing out something that you said yourself, and asked a question about how it could have worked.

    Your post reads like a clumsy deflection of a person feeling guilty.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    And no, I don't regard this as gay hating. Just thoughtless, casual hyperbole.

    You don't regard a wish to shoot homosexuals as gay hating? Really? Just what would you so regard, anyway? That "thoughtless, careless hyperbole" certainly indicates an intense dislike if not out and out hatred.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Why do you ask with such a presumption of bad will?
    If you don’t want to know what people think of you (or at least your self-described behavior), you probably shouldn’t ask them.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Thanks again friends, brothers, sisters.
Sign In or Register to comment.