The UK Prime Minister

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  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited May 26
    Which shows that Mr Hammond, in claiming that the views of Parliament trump the result of a referendum, is making the same mistake as Mrs May and of remainers.
    Are you trying to convince us that the Leave position is ignorant and evil? Most of us are tempted to believe that already, true, but are you deliberately trying to eliminate all doubt?

    The referendum was officially advisory and has no legal authority. In fact, it is only because the referendum has no legal authority that the government is not legally required to set the result aside after the illegalities in the Remain campaign spending. Furthermore, in so far as the UK has a constitution it is that Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by previous parliaments. Thus, the constitutional and legal opinion is that Parliament cannot be bound by a referendum, especially one called prior to its own election.

    The Irish border issue is only 'relatively minor' if you don't give a damn about Ireland, or for that matter about the UK's probity in honouring its international treaties. And if you're going to maintain that the population of Ireland is so much smaller than the UK that its interests should give way to the referendum result, you would be ignoring the fact that the Leave majority in the referendum was far smaller than that. The inclusion of the population of Ireland or the inclusion of two other demographics with a direct stake in the outcome (EU nationals in the UK, UK nationals in the EU) would almost certainly have swung the result the other way.

  • Which shows that Mr Hammond, in claiming that the views of Parliament trump the result of a referendum, is making the same mistake as Mrs May and of remainers. If - and I think it is if - Parliament decides to take it upon itself to "correct" the result of the referendum by voting down the UK's departure from the EU, the result could make the current chaos look like a picnic.

    As for a general election, there doesn't need to be one until June 2022: do you really want the current sh*t-show to continue unabated until then, because that will be the case if the UK doesn't get out, deal or no-deal.


    There needs to be a general election if no government has the confidence of the House of Commons, a scenario that could come about very rapidly if Messrs Johnson or Raab get the keys to no. 10 and start pushing for no deal.

    As to whether parliament trumps the referendum - of course it does! We live in a parliamentary democracy and no parliament can bind the hands of another. Whether parliament should consider the referendum to be irrelevant given the passage of time, the closeness of the result and the apparent inability of Brexiteers to get their story straight about what it means is a different question, the answer to which largely depends on whether you still expect a herd of Brexit unicorns carrying sacks full of cake to gallop up the white cliffs of Dover.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Which shows that Mr Hammond, in claiming that the views of Parliament trump the result of a referendum, is making the same mistake as Mrs May and of remainers.
    Are you trying to convince us that the Leave position is ignorant and evil? Most of us are tempted to believe that already, true, but are you deliberately trying to eliminate all doubt?

    The referendum was officially advisory and has no legal authority. In fact, it is only because the referendum has no legal authority that the government is not legally required to set the result aside after the illegalities in the Remain campaign spending. Furthermore, in so far as the UK has a constitution it is that Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by previous parliaments. Thus, the constitutional and legal opinion is that Parliament cannot be bound by a referendum, especially one called prior to its own election.

    The Irish border issue is only 'relatively minor' if you don't give a damn about Ireland, or for that matter about the UK's probity in honouring its international treaties. And if you're going to maintain that the population of Ireland is so much smaller than the UK that its interests should give way to the referendum result, you would be ignoring the fact that the Leave majority in the referendum was far smaller than that. The inclusion of the population of Ireland or the inclusion of two other demographics with a direct stake in the outcome (EU nationals in the UK, UK nationals in the EU) would almost certainly have swung the result the other way.

    :notworthy:
  • MoyessaMoyessa Shipmate
    edited May 26
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    choosing instead to bring up the relatively minor question of the Irish border instead

    As I recall, keeping the Irish border open was one of Mrs May's red lines as well as one of the EU's.

    Are you saying that a future PM should abandon the pledge to keep it open?
  • Moyessa wrote: »
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?
    No, it looks like the one thing that's certain is that whoever is picked will say they'll "deliver Brexit". What's also certain is that whatever method they propose to "deliver Brexit", many others in the Tory Party (and beyond) will declare that they're not delivering the "true Brexit" that the people voted for in 2016 and is failing to respect the outcome of the referendum.
  • Moyessa wrote: »
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?

    Is this an allusion to the wingnut conspiracy theory that May was so shit because she was secretly trying to keep Britain in the EU? I find it kind of sweet that people find it impossible to believe that the tories picked someone who really was that incompetent as PM.
  • MoyessaMoyessa Shipmate
    edited May 26
    Moyessa wrote: »
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?

    Is this an allusion to the wingnut conspiracy theory that May was so shit because she was secretly trying to keep Britain in the EU? I find it kind of sweet that people find it impossible to believe that the tories picked someone who really was that incompetent as PM.

    I am nothing if not sweet; but your personal comments aren't relevant to this discussion.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I've been thinking about managerialism recently.

    I'm the sort of person who instinctively believes that managers don't know their arse from their elbow, but people who are more mature than me will be able to tell me that's not the case, and that management is a difficult and specific set of skills.

    Which Mrs May distinctly lacked. It wouldn't take a management consultant long, after taking their million-pound commission to be routed via the Cayman Islands, to diagnose that her problems arose from her failure to achieve buy-in from key stakeholders.

    Setting aside questions of ideology and intellect, do any of the other candidates have this skillset? From skim-reading his Wikipedia page, Rory Stewart looks pretty good.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Moyessa wrote: »
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?
    !! What? !!

    They've just broken their leader over her determination to deliver Brexit.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 26
    Enoch wrote: »
    Moyessa wrote: »
    Are Conservatives seriously considering another P.M. who does not want Brexit?
    !! What? !!

    They've just broken their leader over her determination to deliver Brexit.

    No they didn't. Over her Brexit. Brexit is done. Over. For 3 years now. Johnson/Gove just has to wait for her delay of the formality. As Dimbleby said then, "We're out.".
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    The referendum was officially advisory and has no legal authority. In fact, it is only because the referendum has no legal authority that the government is not legally required to set the result aside after the illegalities in the Remain campaign spending.

    Do you mean the illegality of the Remain campaign spending? I thought the Remain campaign was just incompetent and it was the Leave campaign that has been fined for their illegal spending.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    the illegalities in the Remain campaign spending.
    Do you mean the illegality of the Remain campaign spending?
    Whoops. I did indeed mean the Leave camp spending.

  • SusanDorisSusanDoris Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    tessaB wrote: »
    Please God, not Dominic Raab. He is my MP and a more slimy, self-serving bag of whiney entitled shit would be difficult to find. Not only does he think that feminists are 'obnoxious bigots' but he thinks that the government equalities office is pointless and should be abolished. When we had a charity abseil down our church tower last year to raise funds for the church, he did the abseil as a photo op and didn't give us a penny! Bastard!
    Thank you for that. I've never met him but what you say confirms the impression I've picked up.
    I too am grateful for the info about him. I was talking to a friend yesterday - she and her husband think he would be a good choice. Fortunately, they will not have a vote!

  • Just a query and forgive my ignorance, but would someone in Raab's position be allowed to make a donation of that kind?

    Yes, he does seem to represent the worst form of Tory stereotype but aren't there rules about MPs supporting things financially?

    I presume Raab would say that by posing for a photo-opportunity he was helping to endorse and support this particular cause whilst not contributing to it financially.

    Would he be allowed to make a donation in his position?

    Just wondering aloud ...
  • MPs are allowed to support charities - link (pdf)

    The rules all seem to be about the monies going to MPs and parties
    The main purpose of the Register of Members' Financial Interests is "to provide information of any pecuniary interest or other material benefit which a Member receives which might reasonably be thought by others to influence his or her actions, speeches or votes in Parliament, or actions taken in his or her capacity as a Member of Parliament." Register of Financial Instruments
    Electoral Commission guidance

    From which last I glean that all political parties need to keep records of funding donations which they pass on to the Electoral Commission and that those donations cannot come from individuals, organisations or companies outside the EU currently. (Which compliance is being queried about the Brexit Party currently)

    Digging further the limit on spending per candidate is £45,000 in the EU elections - the East of England Green Party gave these figures:

    £200 will pay for a local leaflet to 5000 households. (population 5,847,000 in 2011 from Wiki)
    £50 will pay for travel expenses for volunteers to run two street stalls
    £20 will pay for printing posters for a local election campaign
  • Just a query and forgive my ignorance, but would someone in Raab's position be allowed to make a donation of that kind?

    Yes, he does seem to represent the worst form of Tory stereotype but aren't there rules about MPs supporting things financially?

    I presume Raab would say that by posing for a photo-opportunity he was helping to endorse and support this particular cause whilst not contributing to it financially.

    Would he be allowed to make a donation in his position?

    Just wondering aloud ...
    MPs have always, regularly donated to charity. They get paid (a lot) and are as free as anyone else to choose to give whatever of that they want to charity. Some MPs objected to the large salary rise recently awarded, and have stated that the increase will be donated to community charities in their constituencies.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate

    Which shows that Mr Hammond, in claiming that the views of Parliament trump the result of a referendum, is making the same mistake as Mrs May and of remainers. If - and I think it is if - Parliament decides to take it upon itself to "correct" the result of the referendum by voting down the UK's departure from the EU, the result could make the current chaos look like a picnic.

    As for a general election, there doesn't need to be one until June 2022: do you really want the current sh*t-show to continue unabated until then, because that will be the case if the UK doesn't get out, deal or no-deal.

    There needs to be a general election if no government has the confidence of the House of Commons, a scenario that could come about very rapidly if Messrs Johnson or Raab get the keys to no. 10 and start pushing for no deal.

    Whereas it is clear from last night's voting pattern that not only has the government lost the confidence of the electorate, so to has the main opposition party. No, I'm not suggesting there would be a Brexit landslide if a GE was held either tomorrow, in 4 weeks or 4 months: but I think the political establishment has little clue about the depth of contempt, despair and general pissed-offness they engender in huge numbers of the electorate. Furthermore, it seems that some, at least, are still unable to detect any real hint of a need to change - watch the statement from Mr Corbyn if you want to see real political blind obtuseness at its finest; he made Mark Francois look positively nuanced by comparison, no mean feat.

  • Which shows that Mr Hammond, in claiming that the views of Parliament trump the result of a referendum, is making the same mistake as Mrs May and of remainers. If - and I think it is if - Parliament decides to take it upon itself to "correct" the result of the referendum by voting down the UK's departure from the EU, the result could make the current chaos look like a picnic.

    As for a general election, there doesn't need to be one until June 2022: do you really want the current sh*t-show to continue unabated until then, because that will be the case if the UK doesn't get out, deal or no-deal.

    There needs to be a general election if no government has the confidence of the House of Commons, a scenario that could come about very rapidly if Messrs Johnson or Raab get the keys to no. 10 and start pushing for no deal.

    Whereas it is clear from last night's voting pattern that not only has the government lost the confidence of the electorate, so to has the main opposition party. No, I'm not suggesting there would be a Brexit landslide if a GE was held either tomorrow, in 4 weeks or 4 months: but I think the political establishment has little clue about the depth of contempt, despair and general pissed-offness they engender in huge numbers of the electorate. Furthermore, it seems that some, at least, are still unable to detect any real hint of a need to change - watch the statement from Mr Corbyn if you want to see real political blind obtuseness at its finest; he made Mark Francois look positively nuanced by comparison, no mean feat.

    That people use elections to send messages about things they can't directly affect it hardly news. These elections were a "free hit" on the two main parties, and pretty much only tell you where people stand on Brexit (i.e. tipping slightly towards remain). Corbyn's response was that the Brexit decision needs to go back to the people, either in a GE or a referendum. I think that's a reasonable response to a split decision, where both main parties suffered for not taking more extreme positions. What's obtuse about it?
  • Judging by his unadulterated glee, Nigel F is clearly hoping he'll be the next Prime Minister (or maybe the next PM after BoJo...... :grimace: )

    What interesting times we do live in, to be sure.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    Furthermore, it seems that some, at least, are still unable to detect any real hint of a need to change - watch the statement from Mr Corbyn if you want to see real political blind obtuseness at its finest; he made Mark Francois look positively nuanced by comparison, no mean feat.

    This is just nonsense. I posted Corbyn's statement above. Which bit of it is obtuse? Seriously. Moreover, the verbal clip radio2 played on the midday news was even more clear.

    Corbyn has not led on Brexit as well as many of us wish but his statements in the last 24hrs have been spot on. Time will tell if he'll carry that through but when he moved to a CU being an absolute minimum, he did so wholeheartedly.

    AFZ
  • CU?
    :grey_question:
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    CU?
    :grey_question:

    Customs Union
  • Thank you - I should have guessed, but a Senior Moment occurred....
    :wink:
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Time will tell if he'll carry that through but when he moved to a CU being an absolute minimum, he did so wholeheartedly.
    I don't think anybody is marching for the Customs Union though. The only person who's campaigned for that is Farage (though he's conveniently forgotten that). It's very much a sitting on the fence position. And as far as I can tell, if there are any Lexit unicorns to be had, they're not to be had in the Customs Union.
  • Thanks @Curiosity Killed and @Alan Cresswell.

    I know the rules for local councillors and such but not MPs.
  • tessaBtessaB Shipmate
    Interesting that BoJo is being called to court over lying during the Brexit referendum. I thought at first that it might be a way to stop him becoming leader, but a little reflection shows that the whole process must have started a long while ago (time to crowdfund, get a solicitor/barrister on side etc.) Could it be, as insinuated, an anti-Brexit strategy. Or is it an anti BoJo strategy. Or possibly a concerned individual who is just anti being lied to by politicians? (I know, I know, find me one that doesn't lie)
    Could this affect his chances?
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I think Johnson will use it to his advantage, saying that Remainers are out to get him, and so on. A touch of martydom always helps, and he can always talk about the referendum being betrayed.
  • tessaBtessaB Shipmate
    I think unfortunately you might be right. I also think that he will find some poor sap who will be willing to say that he gave Boris the information and that Boris used it in good conscience.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    It reminds me of Trump - lying is now seen as advantageous, and something to boast about.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    If Boris starts hugging the union flag as trump the the US flag... I don’t know what I’d do but it wouldn't’ Be pretty
  • Perhaps he'll get tangled or stuck in the flag pole halyards, after all he has form: http://i.imgur.com/CFmbjDY.jpg
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    Furthermore, it seems that some, at least, are still unable to detect any real hint of a need to change - watch the statement from Mr Corbyn if you want to see real political blind obtuseness at its finest; he made Mark Francois look positively nuanced by comparison, no mean feat.

    This is just nonsense. I posted Corbyn's statement above. Which bit of it is obtuse? Seriously. Moreover, the verbal clip radio2 played on the midday news was even more clear.

    Corbyn has not led on Brexit as well as many of us wish but his statements in the last 24hrs have been spot on. Time will tell if he'll carry that through but when he moved to a CU being an absolute minimum, he did so wholeheartedly.

    I can't find your posting of Corbyn's statement. However, I have found (again) the statement he made on Monday following the result of the EU elections. Interviewed on TV (I watched it) he said the following:

    After three years of Tory failure to deliver a Brexit that works for the whole country, these elections became a proxy second referendum.

    With the Conservatives disintegrating and unable to govern, and parliament deadlocked, this issue will have to go back to the people, whether through a general election or a public vote.

    Labour will bring our divided country together so we can end austerity and tackle inequality.

    Over the coming days we will have conversations across our party and movement, and reflect on these results on both sides of the Brexit divide

    We will not let the continuing chaos in the Conservative Party push our country into a No Deal exit from the EU.

    Parliament can and will prevent such a damaging outcome for jobs and industry in the UK.


    Based on that I stand by what I said: Corbyn is not calling for another referendum, he is calling for a general election - quite what he means speaking of a "public vote" is anybody's guess, but I suspect he will do anything to avoid using the "R" word because he has powerful union backers (and bankrollers) who are against holding another referendum (Len McCluskey of Unite) and others who are pro (Tim Roache of the GMB); understandably Mr Corbyn doesn't want to upset either of his two biggest backers.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    edited May 30
    I think those rating Stewart may have forgotten what happened the last time the Tories were led by a congenial Old Etonian who professed to have liberal tendencies.
  • Was that when the said OE turned out to be a bit of a pig in a poke?
    :wink:
  • Sure, but Stewart is brighter than Cameron, not that I want him as PM particularly but given the choice between him and Boris ...
  • Scylla and Charybdis?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Was that when the said OE turned out to be a bit of a pig in a poke?
    :wink:

    Wasn't it more of a poke in a pig?
  • Ah - you saw what I did there....!
    :wink:

    Back to the OP - the next PM will doubtless be a knave/dolt/charlatan/mountebank/clown (add other epithets, or delete as appropriate).

    Such is political 'life' in Sinking Ukland today.

  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    Ah - you saw what I did there....!
    :wink:

    Back to the OP - the next PM will doubtless be a knave/dolt/charlatan/mountebank/clown (add other epithets, or delete as appropriate).

    Such is political 'life' in Sinking Ukland today.

    Nostalgia is never what it used to be.

    It is always dangerous to bemoan the current state of affairs by yearning for yesteryear when everything was much better. However, it must be true that the current state of affairs in the UK political landscape is particularly poor. It's not just me, is it?

    AFZ
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I think it's more frightening than I can remember. Farage is being predicted to get 100 MPs, and he will attack NHS and welfare state. Some Tory candidates are competing over attacking LGBT rights, it's grim.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Farage is being predicted to get 100 MPs, and he will attack NHS and welfare state.
    Has he advanced his share of the vote so far beyond what UKIP got?
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Farage is being predicted to get 100 MPs, and he will attack NHS and welfare state.
    Has he advanced his share of the vote so far beyond what UKIP got?

    I'm going off the latest YouGov poll which has Brexit at 22%. Translating this into seats is difficult but there are guesses of over 100, Tories on 110, Labour 200. If this is correct, I guess UK politics is changing! I am using the Electoral Calculus website.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Link to a John Rentoul article, who is saying "Tories are doomed". Exaggeration?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/lib-dem-poll-yougov-conservatives-doomed-corbyn-recover-a8937921.html
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Farage is being predicted to get 100 MPs, and he will attack NHS and welfare state.
    Has he advanced his share of the vote so far beyond what UKIP got?

    I'm going off the latest YouGov poll which has Brexit at 22%. Translating this into seats is difficult but there are guesses of over 100, Tories on 110, Labour 200. If this is correct, I guess UK politics is changing! I am using the Electoral Calculus website.

    The Electoral Calculus website is pretty accurate. That YouGov poll is not necessarily meaningful though. We are definitely in a time of much change and flux. Labour forming a proper position of another Brexit referendum will be an important factor.

    The other issue that is critical here is that the Brexit Party is not a political party which would pose some legal issues with a Westminster campaign and more importantly recruiting candidates is not a small undertaking. (A significant proportion of the (actually quite small number) of candidates they fielded for the European election were just transmuted from UKIP).

    Having said all that, a Parliament with 200 Labour MPs, 100 Tories and 100 UKIPers - sorry - Brexit Party idiots would see the Blues have very little power. Labour/SNP/PC/LibDem coalition would put a final end to their Brexit nonsense.

    The Conservative (sorry Self-serv-ative) party remains the problem. For all the issues we have with Labour at the moment, a Labour-led coalition would find a way out of this mess. But I don't think a GE will happen just yet; the Tories are gonna hold on to power with all their might. Later in the year, then things may well fall apart.... but what damage to the country might they have afflicted by then?

    AFZ

  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I don't think there will be an election soon, looking at those figures. But if the Tories carry on with their non-Brexit Brexit, Farage may prosper.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    I don't think there will be an election soon, looking at those figures. But if the Tories carry on with their non-Brexit Brexit, Farage may prosper.

    Absolutely, there is no chance of an election before the Autumn but there is an inherent instability in the way the DUP are propping up the government that means it could all collapse at some point. Whilst too many Tory MPs would put their own careers and their party before the country, if the issue is a No Deal Brexit, then probably there would be enough rebels to bring down the government. Conversely, the DUP won't support any Brexit deal with the backstop in it. The EU will no countenance any deal without the backstop.... Hence I think we inevitably will stumble into an election but if it's after the 31st October, we may well have left the EU without a deal before that happens...

    AFZ
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    The chances of Stewart may have evaporated now that someone has dug up his admission that at an Iranian wedding he ended up smoking opium. :grin:
  • And his voting record is being splashed all over Twitter.
  • And how is that worse than (allegedly) having sexual intercourse (or pretending to have sexual intercourse) with a dead pig?

    :grimace:
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