The UK Prime Minister

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  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Perhaps, one day, we'll get an elected PM, rather than a knave or a dolt imposed on us by other knaves and dolts.
    :rage:
    .

    To again take up Orfeo's line (as he's not around much at all these days). All PM's are elected on the vote of their constituents. No-one in any other electorate gets that opportunity
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    ... Much as I think Boris s bumbling idiot, he has been in politics a good while and gets people to vote for him. There must be something there. Well hidden but still.
    That's a non sequitur. Besides, look at Corbyn and Trump.

    Corbyn at least has the positives of sincerity, honesty, decency, and a sense of right and wrong. His political savvy and people management skills aren't the best but *shrug* that's why we have John McDonnell (who has a sense of right and wrong but you get the sense that he'd put it aside if he thought shivving you in the kidneys would achieve his political aims).

    The thing is, being crap at dealing with people (to put it less charitably than “people management skills aren’t the best”) is a massive failing for someone in Corbyn’s position. Success in politics requires consensus-building.

    Indeed. As far as I understand the Labour party, that's pretty much his job description. Overall strategy is determined by conference. Detailed policies are (or should be) developed by the shadow minister responsible for that policy area. Funding (i.e. working out how to pay for it all) is for the shadow chancellor. Internal party governance is for the NEC. The leader's role should be to make sure everyone is working together for the same aim, and Mr Corbyn, whatever his other strengths, is not doing this.

    This is one of the great fallacies of modern politics, I think.

    No doubt that being able to unify one's own party is a desirable quality in a leader. However the idea that it is critical quality or somehow the only measure of a leader is just silly.

    From outside, it looks as though the structure of the Labour party has made it the only measure of a leader.

    Of course you are correct, it is no use having brilliant leadership skills if you use them to lead the country off a cliff. But equally, there is no value in knowing the way to utopia if you can't persuade anyone else to come with you.

    Now my understanding of the Labour party is that Mr Corbyn's ability to choose direction is relatively constrained, because the party manifesto is determined by conference. (Hence the attempts to force him to back explicitly a second referendum by calling an emergency conference.) This contrasts with the Conservative party, where the leader seems to have far more scope to choose direction. (Hence the belief that the Brexit deadlock can be resolved by changing leader.)

    I suppose fundamentally the question is: What is the leader of the Labour party for?
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Ricardus wrote: »
    ... I suppose fundamentally the question is: What is the leader of the Labour party for?
    So that there's someone to go and meet the Queen once a week when they're in power?
  • Matthew Norman in the "Indy" and "i", has written an interesting article (behind a pay wall however): "In a sea of Trump-a-likes, Sadiq Khan is starting to look like our prime minister in waiting. He's the only one with the guts to stand up to the US president – and to have emerged untarnished from this Brexit mess".
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Yes I agree.
  • Hear, hear - but I rather fear that having Mr Khan as PM is as likely a happening as the appearance of a genuine unicorn...

    ...but one can hope, and dream, about Good Things, no?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate
    edited June 6
    Matthew Norman in the "Indy" and "i", has written an interesting article (behind a pay wall however): "In a sea of Trump-a-likes, Sadiq Khan is starting to look like our prime minister in waiting. He's the only one with the guts to stand up to the US president – and to have emerged untarnished from this Brexit mess".

    It's amazingly easy to emerge untarnished from something you have no involvement in where you are in charge of a polity that is clearly on one side. See also: Nicola Sturgeon. Both are decent politicians and reasonable human beings afaik but they're playing on easy mode as far as national politics go.

    Quote tidy - Firenze, Purg Host
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    It's certainly a sharp dilemma for Tory would-be leaders. They have to get the UK out, otherwise they fear Faraginous extinction. But if they go out on a no-deal, disaster may strike, in terms of the economy. Presumably, an election or a referendum are not feasible. Hmm, scratches head.
  • It's amazingly easy to emerge untarnished from something you have no involvement in where you are in charge of a polity that is clearly on one side. See also: Nicola Sturgeon. Both are decent politicians and reasonable human beings afaik but they're playing on easy mode as far as national politics go.
    Yes, I take the point. Norman also makes the point that Trump's rudeness to Khan can only have increased the latter's standing in the sight of many.

  • Having a small Brown Muslim PM (rather than a tall White Christian™ would certainly lead to Even More Interesting Times...
    :wink:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Could someone talk Larry the Cat into giving it a go?
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    Seems like a good idea to me. And Palmerston, the FO cat, will obviously handle foreign affairs.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    This has probably been said before, but Rory Stewart is the only contender whose thinking has any connection with reality. That's why he can't win.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Rumours that the Labour vote in Peterborough is rising, partly because of the Trump visit, and his greed for the NHS. I am sceptical about this, and see a Farage win coming. Tories terrified, Labour horrified, Farage PM?
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Some indications that Johnson defuses the Brexit vote. That is the key issue for Tories, isn't it? Google Election Maps UK. Johnson gives 29% Tory vote, others 20% or 21%, Labour 22%, Lib 22%.
  • Rumours that the Labour vote in Peterborough is rising, partly because of the Trump visit, and his greed for the NHS. I am sceptical about this, and see a Farage win coming. Tories terrified, Labour horrified, Farage PM?

    There is precisely zero chance of Farage becoming PM. If anything the existence of the Brexit party splitting the tory vote makes a Labour government more likely.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    Rumours that the Labour vote in Peterborough is rising, partly because of the Trump visit, and his greed for the NHS. I am sceptical about this, and see a Farage win coming. Tories terrified, Labour horrified, Farage PM?

    There is precisely zero chance of Farage becoming PM. If anything the existence of the Brexit party splitting the tory vote makes a Labour government more likely.

    Wow, finally someone found something positive to say about Farage!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Voters tend not to take too many risks in a GE. Some one like Farage will not do well. Most people will vote along their traditional lines.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Voters tend not to take too many risks in a GE. Some one like Farage will not do well. Most people will vote along their traditional lines.

    Sure, but they only need to take 10% of the vote from the tories for Labour's chances to improve dramatically.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Which indeed seems to have just happened in Peterborough...
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 7
    In 2017 in Scotland the SNP won a clear majority of seats on 35% of the vote.

    With FPTP, Lib Dem resurgence and the BXP, come a GE we're going to see a lot of seats won by candidates polling in the high 20s and low 30s. This is a bit of a change from the traditional two horse races where being in the 40s is often needed.

    So while I think Peterborough tells us that people will tend to revert to their traditional voting patterns, enough won't to cause some upsets.

    Corbyn - or a new Tory leader - or God help us Farage - could be measuring No. 10 up for new curtains with around 30% of the vote - in reach for any of them.

    I think the Tories have the most to fear. Their supporters are most likely to have voted Leave and they also presided over cocking it up.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Voters tend not to take too many risks in a GE. Some one like Farage will not do well. Most people will vote along their traditional lines.

    Yes.

    My biggest hope now is that boris is elected leader, followed quickly by a vote of no confidence and a general election. Resulting in a Labour win with the other parties splitting the rest of the vote - with the Greens getting a really good percentage. Hopefully farage will find his ‘party’ impossible to manage and it crumbles as UKip did - being made up of people who have no idea how to work together.



  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited June 7
    From a report this morning on the Peterborough result,
    "Brexit party insiders said Labour’s reliance upon a mainly Pakistani vote in inner-city wards had been the difference between the parties. 'Some of these houses had 14 people in them registered to vote. It would be interesting to see what proportion voted Labour,' said one".
    Now, admittedly that's from the Grauniad, but if that's true, it belies the Brexit Party's claim that of course it isn't racist.

    That's 'nasty immigrants with votes robbed true white Brits of our victory'.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Trying to divert my aching mind away from the shuddersome Tory list, it occurred to me that a good candidate for the job of PM might be that nice Mr Khan of London Town.
    :wink:

    Agreed!

    Definitely. Thought that for some years now.
  • It's looking like all the candidates for the Tory leadership are going to admit to use of drugs in the past. Does this constitute evidence that drug use results in serious and long-term brain damage? A new approach to "just say no", "or else you might think becoming Tory leader is a good idea"?
  • I heard the discussions about Gove's cocaine use and Raab admitting to cannabis use at university, but saying cocaine was worse this morning. I'm afraid my immediate thought was that it would take a lot to convince me that Boris has a squeaky clean record on cocaine use, from the reputation of the crowds he hangs out in.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited June 8
    it would take a lot to convince me that Boris has a squeaky clean record on cocaine use
    Wouldn't Boris Johnson claiming that he had used it be enough?

  • OK, I didn't look, but checking now, it's on record that Boris used cocaine as a teenager
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    It's looking like all the candidates for the Tory leadership are going to admit to use of drugs in the past.

    As Gove's 'exclusive' was to the Mail, and as he used to be a journo himself, presumably he knew that half of Fleet Street had been to the same parties, and it was a way of getting ahead of the story.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    It's looking like all the candidates for the Tory leadership are going to admit to use of drugs in the past. Does this constitute evidence that drug use results in serious and long-term brain damage? A new approach to "just say no", "or else you might think becoming Tory leader is a good idea"?
    Yet another post which makes me wish the Ship had a 'like' button.
    ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    Or perhaps they should support decriminalisation and treat addiction as the health probelm it is, and prohibition as the failing strategy it has always been.
  • O come now - that would be far too sensible a Plan.
    :wink:

    These are people with scrambled brains, after all...they must be, to want to be PM in the first place.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    These are people with scrambled brains, after all...they must be, to want to be PM in the first place.

    The drugs Top Trumps continues, with Leadsom admitting to smoking weed in university. Presumably none of this is as serious as drinking a mojito on a train though.

  • At least none of them have done anything as outrageous as running through a field of wheat.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Sorry to break my vow and pop up on a British politics thread, but I just found out that Michael Gove is a coke fiend!!!!!!! Oh my God. I am SO looking forward to Dead Ringers next week. He is one of their most hilarious characters.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    I don't have a major problem with Gove's confession per se. However, I bet you a lot of money that he's supported very draconian drug policies and that's the first level of hypocrisy that needs to be faced.

    The second is of the same vein but (arguably) worse. The spate of knife crime (particularly in London) is drug-related. Kids from sink estates with very little life hopes can literally earn thousands by delivering drugs to wealthy young people who take Cocaine for fun. This is not a victimless crime. Moreover I strongly suspect that it would really help to tackle this problem is the police were resourced well enough to target the Goves of this world and their recreational use.

    Drugs is one area of our society where the class divide is incredibly stark. If you're poor and have a drug problem (Health problem as per @Doublethink's comment above) you'll go to prison to not get treatment, to become a proper criminal and to make your drug problem worse. OTOH, if you're wealthy and/or connected enough you can get treatment and then get on with your life.

    The problem with Gove here is that he is part of the problem. And at the end of the line this means lots of people who see their lives wrecked by the criminal justice system and young people who are dying.

    But I bet you when he's on the Marr program today it will be all about how this hurts his leadership election campaign; and the terms of the debate will be something like how can you convince the party that you will be tough on law and order...?

    Gove has always been a self-serving POS. He remains a terrible choice for PM. He also remains not the worst option.

    AFZ
  • The tory leadership contest is somewhat like watching a gang decide what gun they're going to shoot you with. You hope they choose the .22 or even the air rifle but you still don't want them to pull the trigger.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Gove wasn’t a teenager 20 years ago when he took class A drugs, he was a 31 year old man. He’s trying to pass it off as a youthful ‘mistake’. 😡

    Asked if he lied about it (eg on forms to enter the US) he just burbled.

    Is he out of the running now?
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    According to the US embassy UK citizens with valid e-passports are generally admitted under the visa waiver program "for business, pleasure or transit for less than 90 days." This program isn't offered to people who have been arrested, but I assume that's not Gove's problem (or we would have heard about it by now.)

    There's a multi-part online application form for this program which I am loathe to complete just so I can see the questions asked, but as it happens there are companies that will fill these out for you, and at least one of them does have a PDF form online.

    If Gove traveled under this program, he would have been asked, among other things:
    • Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
    but also
    • Do you have a communicable disease, physical or mental disorder, or are you a drug user or addict?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    Why are folk so worried about Gove’s cocaine use but not Johnson’s ?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Why are folk so worried about Gove’s cocaine use but not Johnson’s ?

    Because I guess that the Johnson episode has faded from people's mind and the media has decided to focus on Gove.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I'm beginning to wonder if they're all jumping on the "I took drugs when I was at university" bandwagon in the hope that it'll boost their street-cred.

    Oh hang on a minute - the people who are going to be voting for them wouldn't know street-cred if it came up in their soup ... :mrgreen:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Nah. They're getting their defence in before it's suddenly used against them. Once it's down to a few candidates it'll be knives in the dark. For some reason I keep humming https://g.co/kgs/GxL4R5
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    I'm beginning to wonder if they're all jumping on the "I took drugs when I was at university" bandwagon in the hope that it'll boost their street-cred.

    Oh hang on a minute - the people who are going to be voting for them wouldn't know street-cred if it came up in their soup ... :mrgreen:
    Yes, I've been wondering that - whether they're after the yoof vote, or at least trying to show they can attract it. But, the yoof voters are not party members. So I think @KarlLB is right.

    The marker which might change our minds on this will be if Andrea Leadsom parades herself as the only one who has tried pethidine.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Of course Boris Johnson is promising tax cuts for 3m higher earners.

    They will be over-represented in the 160,000 people who will decide our next PM.

    🙄😡
  • More importantly, that 100,000 party members are very likely to have bought the lie that more money in the hands of the rich trickles down to boost the entire economy and helps those on lower incomes.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    They say Boris is as shameless as Trump. I think there's a difference. Trump just has no understanding of what he should be ashamed of. Boris is literally shameless.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited June 10
    Boris is this generation’s Jeffrey Archer. Unfortunately a lot closer to the pm’s job than Archer ever managed.

    (Weirdly, anti-immigrant bigots are generally fine with him, despite the fact he literally used to be a US citizen - I wonder why, could it be because he’s ... I don’t know .... white ?)
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Of course Boris Johnson is promising tax cuts for 3m higher earners.

    They will be over-represented in the 160,000 people who will decide our next PM.

    🙄😡

    There's a sting in the tail - he's proposing raising the NI threshold to partly pay for it. This means that the biggest cuts will go to... wealthy pensioners, the self-employed and those living off unearned income (i.e. the rentier class). Those on PAYE (headteachers, hospital consultants and the like) would get only half as much back. It is a very precise cut targeted at the tory selectorate. It's as if a candidate for the Green Party co-leadership promised to remove VAT from products made from hemp.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    There's one big difference. For all his many failings, Jeffrey Archer has beaten Mr de Pfeffel Johnson in one respect. He's actually succeeded at something. He's written books that sell.
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