The UK Prime Minister

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  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Sherlock Holmes took cocaine and is generally well thought of.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Why are folk so worried about Gove’s cocaine use but not Johnson’s ?

    Gobve's is funnier, but only just.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Sherlock Holmes took cocaine and is generally well thought of.

    Funnily enough, I’m rereading the complete Sherlock Holmes at the minute.

    A couple of things: (a) Sherlock Holmes is a fictional character, and (b) Watson never presents his flirtation with cocaine as anything other than a vice. Oh, and actually (c) Holmes wasn’t trying to get people jailed for drug use.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Of course Boris Johnson is promising tax cuts for 3m higher earners.

    They will be over-represented in the 160,000 people who will decide our next PM.

    🙄😡

    There's a sting in the tail - he's proposing raising the NI threshold to partly pay for it. This means that the biggest cuts will go to... wealthy pensioners, the self-employed and those living off unearned income (i.e. the rentier class). Those on PAYE (headteachers, hospital consultants and the like) would get only half as much back. It is a very precise cut targeted at the tory selectorate. It's as if a candidate for the Green Party co-leadership promised to remove VAT from products made from hemp.

    As a higher rate taxpayer* and also a landlord, I would extort benefit quite a bit from this move. It is however a morally repugnant idea. IFS puts the cost at £10bn. The list of better things you could do with that money runs to hundreds of items; here's a few of the top of my head (and you could probably do ALL of these): reopen Surestart centres; restore legal aid to its previous levels; fund PIP to everyone who needs it (getting rid of ATOS in the process); fund child/adolescent mental health services; actually the list is quite long in just the DWP because of how little actual money is saved by the punitive policies...

    But it will appeal to the higher rate taxpayers who think they're hard up...

    It makes me very angry.

    AFZ

    *actually, I'm not at the moment as my research job is not as well paid but when I go back to fulltime clinical, next year, I will be a higher rate payer again.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    But it will appeal to the higher rate taxpayers who think they're hard up...

    .. as well as columnists who don't have any idea of how median wages work, because all of their mates are higher rate tax payers.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    The list of better things you could do with that money runs to hundreds of items;
    Spend it on the NHS? Somebody suggested that should be a priority on the side of a bus.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    But it will appeal to the higher rate taxpayers who think they're hard up...

    .. as well as columnists who don't have any idea of how median wages work, because all of their mates are higher rate tax payers.

    As I imagine are nearly all Boris'. Just saying.
  • The thought of BoJo the Clown (aka banal, treacly-mouthed, self-serving, shameless gobshite) as our next Prime Minister is absolutely appalling, IMHO.

    If the worst happens, is there NOTHING sensible people* can do, perhaps in the way of civil disobedience? I don't advocate civil unrest or disturbances of the violent kind, but surely there must be some way in which the madness can be stopped.

    *IOW, quite a hefty number...
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    It seems to me that the current PTB wouldn't take it under their notice. Six million people signed the People's Vote petition, and a million marched on London and the square root of bugger-all happened.

    They don't give a stuff for anyone but themselves and their mega-rich buddies - and the 100,000-odd geriatrics who are going to decide your next PM.

    I love my homeland, but I'm glad I don't live there any more. :cry:
  • My feelings exactly. I love my country, but I’m not proud of it.
  • Surely BoJo's tax cut idea is designed to appeal precisely to the Tory MPs and members who, he hopes, will vote for him. No-one else counts in this election, which proves precisely how democratic it is!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Have the Conservatives not got it? If they push a no deal Brexit they will get punished at the GE. It may be good for the leadership contest but in reality even the threat of a no deal Brexit is hurting us. Their big business supporters will not like it. To canvass on that is disaster. On the business news this morning the guest business man is as also a member of the Conservative party and he was against a no deal Brexit. They are not listening to their main money supply, who are they listening to?
  • And how is his other proposal, to leave the EU immediately and not pay any dues, going to work?
    Current list of candidates standing - 10 valid candidates:
    1. James Cleverly
    2. Michael Gove
    3. Sam Gyimah
    4. Matt Hancock
    5. Mark Harper
    6. Jeremy Hunt
    7. Sajid Javid
    8. Boris Johnson
    9. Andrea Leadsom
    10. Kit Malthouse
    11. Esther McVey
    12. Dominic Raab
    13. Rory Stewart

    With Jeremy Hunt and Boris Johnson as the bookmakers' leading candidates.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I agree. The EU regards the payment as sovereign debt. This has to be repaid full stop (period)
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Have the Conservatives not got it? If they push a no deal Brexit they will get punished at the GE. It may be good for the leadership contest but in reality even the threat of a no deal Brexit is hurting us.

    They are stuck - Micawber like - hoping that something will turn up. The reality is that the more brexity of the final two will be chosen as Tory leader by the membership - and the closer Johnson gets to 107 votes, the greater the incentive to board the bandwagon.

    They are hoping that Johnson proves to be a winner, and saves their seats.
  • Dave W wrote: »
    If Gove traveled under this program, he would have been asked, among other things:
    • Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
    but also
    • Do you have a communicable disease, physical or mental disorder, or are you a drug user or addict?

    If he's never been arrested for drug offences then the true answer to the first question is "No". And if he's not a current drug user then the true answer to the second is also "No".

    So he won't have had to lie on either question.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    The EU elections and this by-elections have both demonstrated that it is essential to get out and vote. That may have been the case with Referendum
    Dave W wrote: »
    If Gove traveled under this program, he would have been asked, among other things:
    • Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
    but also
    • Do you have a communicable disease, physical or mental disorder, or are you a drug user or addict?

    If he's never been arrested for drug offences then the true answer to the first question is "No". And if he's not a current drug user then the true answer to the second is also "No".

    So he won't have had to lie on either question.

    Which part of "Are you a drug user or addict" doesn't apply? No mention is made of current. Nice try.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    That might require some equivocation about the meaning of “drug user”, possibly depending on when he travelled and when he used. Most people would probably agree that “I’m not a drug user” is a little more restrictive than “I’m not high at this very moment.”

    I’ve seen it reported that the ESTA visa waiver form asks “Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using or distributing illegal drugs?” This might be a tougher question for someone who “took drugs on several occasions at social events”.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I presume the ESTA form translates to ‘Have you ever been caught violating etc’, otherwise it’s expecting a degree of frankness seldom found outside the confessional I’d say.

  • This is what the BBC doing proper political journalism looks like...

    It's sooooooooooo refreshing to see. Oh and Boris is frit. What a surprise. Not.

    AFZ
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Emma Barnet is a star 🌟 🌟
  • Is Boris frit? Will it affect his chances?
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Is Boris frit? Will it affect his chances?

    From his point of view, as long as he is one of the two front runners, there's very little point exposing himself to scrutiny.
  • Is Boris frit? Will it affect his chances?

    From his point of view, as long as he is one of the two front runners, there's very little point exposing himself to scrutiny.

    Exactly.

    That's democracy at work, that is.
  • This picture of your Boris and the other blond from across the pond has me wondering about several things, most of them rude, adolescent and I can't help it.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    This picture of your Boris and the other blond from across the pond has me wondering about several things, most of them rude, adolescent and I can't help it.

    OTOH the UK would no longer have a sense of superiority.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    The EU elections and this by-elections have both demonstrated that it is essential to get out and vote. That may have been the case with Referendum
    Dave W wrote: »
    If Gove traveled under this program, he would have been asked, among other things:
    • Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
    but also
    • Do you have a communicable disease, physical or mental disorder, or are you a drug user or addict?

    If he's never been arrested for drug offences then the true answer to the first question is "No". And if he's not a current drug user then the true answer to the second is also "No".

    So he won't have had to lie on either question.

    Which part of "Are you a drug user or addict" doesn't apply? No mention is made of current. Nice try.

    No, not a nice try but rather reading the question asking "Are" - present indicative tense. Not "have you been" - past perfect indicative.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    This picture of your Boris and the other blond from across the pond has me wondering about several things ...
    Me too, NP - in particular, how the hell am I supposed to unsee it ... :confounded:
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited June 12
    Boris still says he is willing to crash out with no deal. Meanwhile there are moves a foot by several MPs including JC to essentially make it illegal. Thus making any promise by the new PM to do that impossible to bring about.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    This picture of your Boris and the other blond from across the pond has me wondering about several things ...
    Me too, NP - in particular, how the hell am I supposed to unsee it ... :confounded:

    An excellent image. They will both hate it for many reasons, yet it speaks the truth.

    Worth sharing far and wide.

  • Hugal wrote: »
    Boris still says he is willing to crash out with no deal. Meanwhile there are moves a foot by several MPs including JC to essentially make it illegal. Thus making any promise by the new PM to do that impossible to bring about.

    Impossible promises has never been a problem for Boris before...
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Piglet wrote: »
    This picture of your Boris and the other blond from across the pond has me wondering about several things ...
    Me too, NP - in particular, how the hell am I supposed to unsee it ... :confounded:

    An excellent image. They will both hate it for many reasons, yet it speaks the truth.

    I think the Jonathan Coe quote is apposite.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    This by Matthew Parris on Boris Johnson deserves to be more widely seen and known.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Which part of "Are you a drug user or addict" doesn't apply? No mention is made of current. Nice try.

    The question is phrased in the present tense. It therefore clearly refers to current use rather than historical use.

    By way of explanation, consider the question "are you a smoker?" I think it's perfectly reasonable - and, indeed, correct - for anyone who used to smoke but has now given up the habit to answer "no", especially if they gave up several years ago. Why would it be any different for any other form of drug use?
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    Which part of "Are you a drug user or addict" doesn't apply? No mention is made of current. Nice try.

    The question is phrased in the present tense. It therefore clearly refers to current use rather than historical use.

    By way of explanation, consider the question "are you a smoker?" I think it's perfectly reasonable - and, indeed, correct - for anyone who used to smoke but has now given up the habit to answer "no", especially if they gave up several years ago. Why would it be any different for any other form of drug use?

    I agree that the question is phrased in the present tense, but the use of drugs doesn't go away, and unlike smoking, the drug mentiond was illegal. As far as many jobs are concerned, drug use is not merely a health issue, it is a factor that, like adultery, can be used to blackmail someone if it is concealed. Why else are Tory leadership candidates rushing to admit drug use from thirty or forty years ago?
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    My impression is that the issue frequently raised is not “Could he answer honestly now?” (assuming his cocaine use is decades old) but “Has he ever lied on such a form in the past?”
  • This Tweet from the FT is a nice graphic.

    My take from that is that after Thursday this week the contenders will be:
    • Johnson
    • Gove
    • Hunt
    • Raab
    • Javid
    • and probably Hancock

    There are a lot of undeclared Tory MPs in this still though, so it could be a slightly bigger field into next week.

    To sum up, the choices are: The narcissist bullshitter*; the arrogantly incompetent; the also arrogantly incompetent and a proven serial liar, the incredibly stupid, the self-serving, misleading hypocrite and (probably) the slightly better than my predicessor

    AFZ

    *Specific definition here.


  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Hugo Rifkind did a great listing on The News Quiz of the Tory leadership candidatesas the list then (31/5) stood. (Beginning one minute into the programme. Link valid until the end of June.)
  • BroJames wrote: »
    This by Matthew Parris on Boris Johnson deserves to be more widely seen and known.

    The Andrew Tyrie video mentioned deserves to be more widely watched, too: source. There's another segment of what appears to be the same hearing which I've shared before and can no longer find which speaks volumes through Johnson's language and body language.

  • Found it. I think it's much more damning than the more popular one on balloons: Boris Johnson v Andrew Tyrie on EU coffin and lorry claims.

    Another gold star for the BBC, @alienfromzog ?
  • sionisais wrote: »
    I agree that the question is phrased in the present tense, but the use of drugs doesn't go away, and unlike smoking, the drug mentiond was illegal.

    In what sense does it not go away?
    As far as many jobs are concerned, drug use is not merely a health issue, it is a factor that, like adultery, can be used to blackmail someone if it is concealed. Why else are Tory leadership candidates rushing to admit drug use from thirty or forty years ago?

    None of which is relevant to a question on a US immigration document.
  • It's raining again today (as if having a month's worth on Tuesday wasn't enough), and to add to the general gloom it is beginning to look as though our next PM will indeed be BoJo The Clown.

    You'd think it would be hard to replace Treeza Trainwreck with anyone worse, but...
    :anguished:
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Found it. I think it's much more damning than the more popular one on balloons: Boris Johnson v Andrew Tyrie on EU coffin and lorry claims.

    Another gold star for the BBC, @alienfromzog ?

    Silver, I think.

    The BBC news website has, on-the-whole, been pretty good on Brexit and bullshit claims. But its audience is quite small. On the TV and radio which has a far greater reach, they have given him a pass for over a decade.

    AFZ
  • Lord, have mercy. He's been around that long?
    :fearful:

    Let's hope and pray that his reign will be extremely short (and inglorious).
  • It's raining again today (as if having a month's worth on Tuesday wasn't enough), and to add to the general gloom it is beginning to look as though our next PM will indeed be BoJo The Clown.

    You'd think it would be hard to replace Treeza Trainwreck with anyone worse, but...
    :anguished:

    Looking at the FT graphic there seems to me to be a strong correlation between the level of support and unsuitability to lead a nation.

    I try very hard to respect and not demonize those with whom I disagree, but this seems to show mathematically that the Tory party is the problem.

    All of the likely contenders are likely to be demonstrably worse the the current PM who is a strong candidate for worst Prime Minister in a century but probably 2nd to her immediate predecessor.

    So they're all awful candidates for PM and the more awful they are, the more support they currently have...

    The Conservative Party is the problem.

    AFZ
  • A desire to retain some mental equilibrium has kept me from looking too closely at the other gobshites contenders, but I fear you may be right.

    The sheer awfulness of the state we're in, thanks to that 'party', is truly...er...awful.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    ... All of the likely contenders are likely to be demonstrably worse the the current PM who is a strong candidate for worst Prime Minister in a century but probably 2nd to her immediate predecessor.

    So they're all awful candidates for PM and the more awful they are, the more support they currently have...
    Not quite. This is an uncharitable thing to say of anyone but Mr de Pfeffel Johnson really arouses my disgust.

    On the FT link Esther McVey hasn't much support. I hope that's true. Nevertheless, I think if you examine and reflect on her, she is actually even worse than he is. Too much blonde hair isn't the only thing they have in common.
    The Conservative Party is the problem.
    I think that's the nub of it.

    Furthermore, and although I know some shipmates will squeal with outrage at my saying this, it demonstrates how hopeless the Labour party is at the moment, that they aren't effectively storming the citadels and riding high in the opinion polls. The problem in their case is their dismal leader and the depressing clique of minders that surround him.
  • Thanks @Enoch, I agree about the despicable nature of Ms McVey but I stand by my analysis of those who are likely to survive the first round.

    Many shipmates will know that I am a doctor and, as such, have very strong feelings about Mr Hunt. But on balance, I think Gove is worse; he did similar things to Education that Hunt did to health. Both are very close to Murdoch* both have been pulled up on dishonest and misleading official statements and then continued making the same false claims. Gove wins though for chairing the Leave campaign....

    By similar fine judgements I have ranked the 6-7 that I think will get somewhere.

    When May became PM I was both relieved and deeply worried.

    Relieved because it could have been so much worse. Worried because I (unlike much of the public, I think) was aware of her awful tenure at the Home Office. I think many might see McVey in a similar light. No disabled person would make that mistake. She is callous and viscious**

    But all of this makes the point about the Tory party- these are their stars, their heroes... God help us all.


    AFZ

    *in a previous role as Culture Secretary, Hunt supported the Foxification of Sky news.

    **I have no knowledge of her personally but her actions and words at the DWP more than justify these adjectives.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Furthermore, and although I know some shipmates will squeal with outrage at my saying this, it demonstrates how hopeless the Labour party is at the moment, that they aren't effectively storming the citadels and riding high in the opinion polls.

    Ignoring the 20% of remainers who continue to support the Tory Party (which is in itself an interesting phenomena), outside elections people consider to be a free kick at the major parties the Tories have a monopoly on the Leave section of the population who don't trust anyone else to deliver Brexit. They were 52% of the referendum vote, and were numerically more likely to be Home Counties pensioners of the sort who already voted Tory and are now unlikely to swing to any other party.
  • @chrisstiles is right in my view. The this is an open goal for Labour is a myth.

    The Tories have a solid core support which (in the absence of Farage's insurgency) is about 25% who will always vote Tory.

    Moreover, most Leavers won't vote Labour so the constituencies that Labour can get support from are not as big as many think.

    AFZ
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