Get the fuck over yourselves. The prime minister of this nation appears to be recovering from a deadly disease. Surely that counts as good news for all but the most blinkered of his political opponents?
He was careless with his own safety. Which should be a lesson to us all not to follow his example.
I am glad he’s recovering. Not least because the drop in moral of his supporters would have become an enormous problem if he’d died.
I deplore the Tory press and all it has done to this country.
Marvin, I'm sure I've remarked before on the debating technique of telling one's opponents what they'd do in a hypothetical situation, as if your guess of someone else's reaction was evidence of anything.
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
He may be a prime minister, he may be educated, but he is a stupid person.
Evidence is that he's reasonably intelligent. What you mean is that he's evil.
There is no need to attribute evil to what is most easily explained as stupidity.
And, to be clear, humans have an amazing ability to override what intelligence they have for the sake of feelings. This is especially the case when there is a narrative which is both sufficient to explain what a person cares about and permits the extrapolation of feelings tha a person wants to feel more of. Power, completeness, connection, meaning - all lies we greedily internalize to compensate for our vulnerability to the empty truth of reality.
This question about evil or stupid is a tricky one. Some years ago I heard Anne Widdecombe live, answering questions from Sixth Form students. Now I disagree with almost everything the woman says, but I was very glad I wasn't debating her. She was as sharp as a nail.
Is the argument made? "reasonably intelligent". That's not smart enough to be evil.
Oh, there's a virus on the loose. I can just shake hands anyway, so long as I wash them. But there's the additional problem of speaking moistly as another prime minister reminds us. Didn't Bore-bore know because he's so intelligent?
There are different forms of intelligence and abilities. Someone can be academically gifted, and be a complete dunce at personal relationships. Or, be able to read a room and get people to like you, but too dumb to take advice from others. BoJo certainly has enough of the form of intelligence that makes him good with words, and to get people on his side. Conversely his ability to maintain personal relationships is lacking, he seems to struggle with the realisation that he doesn't know everything and putting things in perspective. Plus, he's as capable of making mistakes as any off us (though, not as ready to fess up when he does).
Get the fuck over yourselves. The prime minister of this nation appears to be recovering from a deadly disease. Surely that counts as good news for all but the most blinkered of his political opponents?
He was careless with his own safety. Which should be a lesson to us all not to follow his example.
I am glad he’s recovering. Not least because the drop in moral of his supporters would have become an enormous problem if he’d died.
I deplore the Tory press and all it has done to this country.
Not just careless with his on safety, but I gather from other posts, the safety of others.
Get the fuck over yourselves. The prime minister of this nation appears to be recovering from a deadly disease. Surely that counts as good news for all but the most blinkered of his political opponents?
He was careless with his own safety. Which should be a lesson to us all not to follow his example.
I am glad he’s recovering. Not least because the drop in moral of his supporters would have become an enormous problem if he’d died.
I deplore the Tory press and all it has done to this country.
Not just careless with his on safety, but I gather from other posts, the safety of others.
Which is the toehold from which the "evil" epithet may potentially be hung.
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain. Though frankly being a member of the parliamentary Conservative party and not resigning in disgust is pretty indicative in itself.
At the time he must of joined the Tory party, they (and Raegan) were supporting Pol Pot and his attempts to get back in power. (and yes they also supported Pinochet)
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
More new hospital deaths in a day - 980 - without the care home deaths that are not being recorded properly, so almost certainly another 1000 plus more deaths today to 5pm.
One thing notable about the UK is that there is rarely a Pentagon Papers moment -- it's rare that the mainstream media actually tackle the government in the middle of a crisis.
The usual form is a book/documentary published after the people involved have long moved on and which wins the writer/director an award. Or a public inquiry that finds that collective mistakes have been made but no living individual was to blame.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
Economic reasons are part of the public policy argument. There comes a point at which the human cost of lockdown, let alone the economic costs, can be considered greater than the human cost of relaxing the lockdown, because of the need for economic activity to benefit human health overall. Fewer people might die of Covid-19, but a lot more might die due to adverse health conditions brought about by lower income, poorer living circumstances, mental health issues, etc. For different ideologies this tipping point will be determined differently, but it's there in all of them I think.
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
Yes, I noticed the usual right wing dingbats have been arguing for a relaxation, spiked online being an obvious example. Or in Toby Young's formulation, why hold up the economy for a few hundred thousand old dodgers. I don't know if they've changed their tune, with 1000 deaths a day.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
Economic reasons are part of the public policy argument. There comes a point at which the human cost of lockdown, let alone the economic costs, can be considered greater than the human cost of relaxing the lockdown, because of the need for economic activity to benefit human health overall. Fewer people might die of Covid-19, but a lot more might die due to adverse health conditions brought about by lower income, poorer living circumstances, mental health issues, etc. For different ideologies this tipping point will be determined differently, but it's there in all of them I think.
Of course the lockdown is also saving a lot of lives beyond just those due to Covid-19. Less air pollution, fewer car accidents and so on. Heck, a lot of people are probably eating better with a bit more time at home and less reliance on eating out and Greggs. Plus all the people who've taken up running as an excuse for getting out the house for 30 minutes a day.
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
Yes, I noticed the usual right wing dingbats have been arguing for a relaxation, spiked online being an obvious example. Or in Toby Young's formulation, why hold up the economy for a few hundred thousand old dodgers. I don't know if they've changed their tune, with 1000 deaths a day.
I seem to recall aforementioned known fucknugget Toby Young saying he was willing to be one of the old codgers who died. Cue a load of tweets suggesting a way out of the restrictions for him...
I got the impression that people such as Young are not all that conversant with exponential growth. They seem to think that it's finite, and will just give up after a while.
Of course the lockdown is also saving a lot of lives beyond just those due to Covid-19. Less air pollution, fewer car accidents and so on. Heck, a lot of people are probably eating better with a bit more time at home and less reliance on eating out and Greggs. Plus all the people who've taken up running as an excuse for getting out the house for 30 minutes a day.
The problem is not what happens during lockdown, but the long-term effects after lockdown, which are likely to increase in severity the longer the lockdown goes on. It is simply not possible to completely separate the economic aspect from public health in the long term as though talking in economic terms was of the devil.
(I'm also not convinced the long-term environmental effects of a prolonged lockdown will be positive, either. As just one tiny example, our recycling bin collections were among the first casualties).
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
Economic reasons are part of the public policy argument. There comes a point at which the human cost of lockdown, let alone the economic costs, can be considered greater than the human cost of relaxing the lockdown
That wasn't entirely the point I was making - but that some of those those who were happy to take the hit for Brexit seem less happy about taking any economic hit to ameliorate the effects of coronavirus.
Besides:
Fewer people might die of Covid-19, but a lot more might die due to adverse health conditions brought about by lower income
And again it isn't actually a choice - either take the economic hit or take deaths which will also result in an economic hit (which may well last longer because the impact of taking experienced people out of the workforce for good).
Of course the lockdown is also saving a lot of lives beyond just those due to Covid-19. Less air pollution, fewer car accidents and so on. Heck, a lot of people are probably eating better with a bit more time at home and less reliance on eating out and Greggs. Plus all the people who've taken up running as an excuse for getting out the house for 30 minutes a day.
The problem is not what happens during lockdown, but the long-term effects after lockdown, which are likely to increase in severity the longer the lockdown goes on. It is simply not possible to completely separate the economic aspect from public health in the long term as though talking in economic terms was of the devil.
(I'm also not convinced the long-term environmental effects of a prolonged lockdown will be positive, either. As just one tiny example, our recycling bin collections were among the first casualties).
I'm pretty sure the lack of recycling (though we've just been asked to stash ours if we can until the dump re-opens) will be dwarfed by the massive decrease in carbon emissions and resources consumption. Improving the environment by reducing economic activity is easy. The trick has always been to improve the environment without hurting the economy.
The word evil suggests to me not just wrongdoing such as culpable negligence or selfishness, but active malice or suchlike. That said, major negligence can be morally worse than petty evil.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
There did seem to be an overlap between Brexit proponents and the "herd immunity" mentality early on, which delayed the full introduction of the shut down. It was almost as though the same people who wanted to "take back control" also wanted to ignore the majority of the experts and the international community and take a uniquely British approach to keep us safe. That they also wanted to avoid international cooperation in procurement, even if that meant missing out on obtaining PPE and ventilators, doesn't seem so odd for people determined to do things on our own. And, when the international experience is that restrictions need to be maintained for an extended period of time, they're also wanting to do something different, and relax restrictions early.
It's almost as though they've placed an ideology that says the UK is Special and We Can Go It Alone above common sense and working with others to address a common challenge.
I got the impression that people such as Young are not all that conversant with exponential growth. They seem to think that it's finite, and will just give up after a while.
Yes,
A libertarian half-friend shared a post about being all of "aware of Cor19", "concerned about the economy" and "worried about civil liberties" and apart from the different words I agree. Ignoring the interplay, it probably is worth risking twice* the minimal hospitalisation/cov-deaths against other effects.
But, as it is the exponential growth, that means we get one visitor (the outdoor exercise probably alone takes a chunk of that, and indeed businesses are still open**).
The thing I would do would be to create virtual gardens in parks for the flats.
*Number from rear end, you'd need to base it on the total duration (for the other affects) and size of peak.
**We have about 40/200 people on site, mostly healthy. Pretty well spaced out. Arguably remaining active could save about 2 lives. If we were fully open that's a net loss, as it is, it's a tiny gain.
I did check spiked online and they have moderated their opposition to the lockdown, although still worried about civil liberties, and hating the BBC, especially Emily Maitlis. You can bet, if deaths stay below 20 000, it's all an exaggeration.
Hospital deaths will breach 10k today. Community deaths are being mostly ignored, but judging from the French figures, we're probably looking at a total of 20k already and a week or two from the peak.
I got the impression that people such as Young are not all that conversant with exponential growth. They seem to think that it's finite, and will just give up after a while.
To be fair, exponential growth will give up when it's completely suffused through the population.
I don't think most of those who sound off about being most anxious about the economic costs of the lockdown are concerned because of the economic consequences for those with adverse health conditions, low income, poorer living circumstances, mental health issues, etc. They're not the sort of people who have normally shown much interest in the effects of the other policies they advocate on the poor, sick and needy.
I don't think most of those who sound off about being most anxious about the economic costs of the lockdown are concerned because of the economic consequences for those with adverse health conditions, low income, poorer living circumstances, mental health issues, etc. They're not the sort of people who have normally shown much interest in the effects of the other policies they advocate on the poor, sick and needy.
Of course not: they're looking at their share portfolio.
Pity, in a way (and I know TIACW!) that Our Glorious SaviourLeader rose from his Bed of Sickness (ewww.....) after three days, thus proving that he is the Third Son of God (Trump being the Second).
Just think of the fun we could have had, once lockdown is over, at his State Funeral! Once the brandy had been poured out (the 'good spirits' he was said to be in), there would have been many willing hands to pour the quicklime over the corpse, prior to interment.
I haven't watched it myself but I am told that Boris put out a heartfelt thanks to the NHS video...
I do not want to be churlish. If his brush with death has affected him and he now understands and appreciates the NHS better that is a good thing and I will acknowledge and support that. But I cannot avoid the following however because Johnson's track record on honesty demands it.
However, actions speak very much louder than words. If he does genuinely appreciate and is grateful for the NHS and its staff (including non-UK born staff) then this will be born out in a change of rhetoric and a radical change in policy.
Prime Minister, the NHS staff wait with baited breath.... your move, Sir.
I think it is possible for politicians to experience something that changes what had appeared previously to be an opinion or attitude set in stone; whether his personal experience of the NHS at it's best will persuade Mr Johnson to look at the organisation in a different light and from a different angle will become apparent in the future.
I wouldn't expect a statement realigning policy in the next few weeks because, to be blunt, in current conditions it would be an unnecessary distraction.
The optimist in me says that the UK, and probably a few other countries, is going to see a radical re-think about many things, including the NHS, after the Covid-19 dust has settled; the pessimist ...
I think we should wait and see but with breath un-bated.
Your right @TheOrganist, of course, but only up to a point. Two reasons for this: firstly politically and culturally narrative is so important and parts of the media are working very hard to cast Boris as the NHS Champion. The only thing worse for the NHS than the current government would be the current government successfully pretending to be on the side of the angels. Secondly and more importantly, there is a massive need for a policy change right now. There is not enough PPE in the NHS. That is a fact. It is also the government's responsibility. Rather than admit the problem and work to fix it, they deny the problem. That is something that could and should change right now.
This is no small thing and yes, it is personal. I am really not on the front line; I feel so much for ICU staff in the badly hit areas but at 9pm last night I had to do a 'high-risk' procedure on a teenager who had a very high temperature and may well be infective. Imagine how I would feel about that 5 minute procedure if the appropriate safety equipment was not available to me? (My hospital is doing well for PPE and surge planning, but this is not true nationally)).
Besides our losses have made us thrifthy, fifty guiders? sod off home.
The PPE thing is needed last month, to be fair they have shortened the steps. But they needed to have changed that when they were still in their "ok I didn't paint the fence today, but tomorrow I'll paint 100 panels" mode. They still hadn't even ordered the ventilators mid-march.
Similarly, they were very slow/still haven't implemented the measures to make a lock-down sustainable.
(we have the 80% furlough, as long as you aren't self employed), and the business loans (which 98% of applicants didn't get). Instead as you say most of the cabinet plan to start the new wave while we are still at the peak of the old one.
I really miss the projectile-vomit emoji when trying NOT to read the sycophantic shite being published about Our Glorious Leader rising from the Bed on the Third Day.
I hope that a possible change of heart results in a bloody quick change of policy, but, given the record of Johnson's toadies and lickspittles up until now, I think I'll continue breath-bating.
There is, of course, a supreme irony in the fact that Our Glorious Leader seems to owe his Resurrection to Horrid Brown People™.
The CBC today had a story that Boris is a changed man by his brush with his mortality. Is it wishful or true?
They didn't say it, but I thought it and wondered if there was a biblical parallel The virus struck him down, rendering him breathless and deathly feverish while he was on the Denial Road. Did this experience truly convert this Saul into a Paul? (Not that I really like Paul that much)
Paul was a pain the a*se, I suspect, as far as many people of his time were concerned! But he did a good job in spreading the Gospel, so his personal shortcomings are perhaps of little moment.
Who knows? Our Glorious Leader (PBUH) may well have been refined by the fire of Covid-19 - time will tell.
Perhaps Paul's personal shortcomings go someway in explaining his doing a good job in spreading the Gospel. Though, I can well image some acquaintance saying, "Yeah, I knew him when he was Saul. He was a dick then, and he's a dick now."
Comments
But yay for the man whose inaction has driven those figures, right?
He was careless with his own safety. Which should be a lesson to us all not to follow his example.
I am glad he’s recovering. Not least because the drop in moral of his supporters would have become an enormous problem if he’d died.
I deplore the Tory press and all it has done to this country.
He may be a prime minister, he may be educated, but he is a stupid person.
Evidence is that he's reasonably intelligent. What you mean is that he's evil.
There is no need to attribute evil to what is most easily explained as stupidity.
And, to be clear, humans have an amazing ability to override what intelligence they have for the sake of feelings. This is especially the case when there is a narrative which is both sufficient to explain what a person cares about and permits the extrapolation of feelings tha a person wants to feel more of. Power, completeness, connection, meaning - all lies we greedily internalize to compensate for our vulnerability to the empty truth of reality.
Oh, there's a virus on the loose. I can just shake hands anyway, so long as I wash them. But there's the additional problem of speaking moistly as another prime minister reminds us. Didn't Bore-bore know because he's so intelligent?
Not just careless with his on safety, but I gather from other posts, the safety of others.
Which is the toehold from which the "evil" epithet may potentially be hung.
Brexit? Deliberate harm to the country done solely for personal gain. Though frankly being a member of the parliamentary Conservative party and not resigning in disgust is pretty indicative in itself.
It is interesting that there is some overlap between those who want to end the lockdown for economic reasons, and those who supported Brexit.
One thing notable about the UK is that there is rarely a Pentagon Papers moment -- it's rare that the mainstream media actually tackle the government in the middle of a crisis.
The usual form is a book/documentary published after the people involved have long moved on and which wins the writer/director an award. Or a public inquiry that finds that collective mistakes have been made but no living individual was to blame.
Yes, I noticed the usual right wing dingbats have been arguing for a relaxation, spiked online being an obvious example. Or in Toby Young's formulation, why hold up the economy for a few hundred thousand old dodgers. I don't know if they've changed their tune, with 1000 deaths a day.
Of course the lockdown is also saving a lot of lives beyond just those due to Covid-19. Less air pollution, fewer car accidents and so on. Heck, a lot of people are probably eating better with a bit more time at home and less reliance on eating out and Greggs. Plus all the people who've taken up running as an excuse for getting out the house for 30 minutes a day.
I seem to recall aforementioned known fucknugget Toby Young saying he was willing to be one of the old codgers who died. Cue a load of tweets suggesting a way out of the restrictions for him...
(I'm also not convinced the long-term environmental effects of a prolonged lockdown will be positive, either. As just one tiny example, our recycling bin collections were among the first casualties).
That wasn't entirely the point I was making - but that some of those those who were happy to take the hit for Brexit seem less happy about taking any economic hit to ameliorate the effects of coronavirus.
Besides:
As a number of commentators have pointed out a recession need not have this impact depending on the public policy adopted to compensate.
And again it isn't actually a choice - either take the economic hit or take deaths which will also result in an economic hit (which may well last longer because the impact of taking experienced people out of the workforce for good).
I'm pretty sure the lack of recycling (though we've just been asked to stash ours if we can until the dump re-opens) will be dwarfed by the massive decrease in carbon emissions and resources consumption. Improving the environment by reducing economic activity is easy. The trick has always been to improve the environment without hurting the economy.
It's almost as though they've placed an ideology that says the UK is Special and We Can Go It Alone above common sense and working with others to address a common challenge.
Yes,
A libertarian half-friend shared a post about being all of "aware of Cor19", "concerned about the economy" and "worried about civil liberties" and apart from the different words I agree. Ignoring the interplay, it probably is worth risking twice* the minimal hospitalisation/cov-deaths against other effects.
But, as it is the exponential growth, that means we get one visitor (the outdoor exercise probably alone takes a chunk of that, and indeed businesses are still open**).
The thing I would do would be to create virtual gardens in parks for the flats.
*Number from rear end, you'd need to base it on the total duration (for the other affects) and size of peak.
**We have about 40/200 people on site, mostly healthy. Pretty well spaced out. Arguably remaining active could save about 2 lives. If we were fully open that's a net loss, as it is, it's a tiny gain.
This is not a drill.
To be fair, exponential growth will give up when it's completely suffused through the population.
Of course not: they're looking at their share portfolio.
Just think of the fun we could have had, once lockdown is over, at his State Funeral! Once the brandy had been poured out (the 'good spirits' he was said to be in), there would have been many willing hands to pour the quicklime over the corpse, prior to interment.
In a Ditch.
I do not want to be churlish. If his brush with death has affected him and he now understands and appreciates the NHS better that is a good thing and I will acknowledge and support that. But I cannot avoid the following however because Johnson's track record on honesty demands it.
However, actions speak very much louder than words. If he does genuinely appreciate and is grateful for the NHS and its staff (including non-UK born staff) then this will be born out in a change of rhetoric and a radical change in policy.
Prime Minister, the NHS staff wait with baited breath.... your move, Sir.
AFZ
I wouldn't expect a statement realigning policy in the next few weeks because, to be blunt, in current conditions it would be an unnecessary distraction.
The optimist in me says that the UK, and probably a few other countries, is going to see a radical re-think about many things, including the NHS, after the Covid-19 dust has settled; the pessimist ...
I think we should wait and see but with breath un-bated.
This is no small thing and yes, it is personal. I am really not on the front line; I feel so much for ICU staff in the badly hit areas but at 9pm last night I had to do a 'high-risk' procedure on a teenager who had a very high temperature and may well be infective. Imagine how I would feel about that 5 minute procedure if the appropriate safety equipment was not available to me? (My hospital is doing well for PPE and surge planning, but this is not true nationally)).
Hence the breath-holding.
AFZ
The PPE thing is needed last month, to be fair they have shortened the steps. But they needed to have changed that when they were still in their "ok I didn't paint the fence today, but tomorrow I'll paint 100 panels" mode. They still hadn't even ordered the ventilators mid-march.
Similarly, they were very slow/still haven't implemented the measures to make a lock-down sustainable.
(we have the 80% furlough, as long as you aren't self employed), and the business loans (which 98% of applicants didn't get). Instead as you say most of the cabinet plan to start the new wave while we are still at the peak of the old one.
I hope that a possible change of heart results in a bloody quick change of policy, but, given the record of Johnson's toadies and lickspittles up until now, I think I'll continue breath-bating.
There is, of course, a supreme irony in the fact that Our Glorious Leader seems to owe his Resurrection to Horrid Brown People™.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/120982426/coronavirus-british-pm-boris-johnson-released-from-hospital
Still, the main thing is that Our Glorious Saviour Leader is ALIVE! - and ready to lead His people to Victory!
They didn't say it, but I thought it and wondered if there was a biblical parallel The virus struck him down, rendering him breathless and deathly feverish while he was on the Denial Road. Did this experience truly convert this Saul into a Paul? (Not that I really like Paul that much)
Who knows? Our Glorious Leader (PBUH) may well have been refined by the fire of Covid-19 - time will tell.