Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Enoch wrote: »
    For transatlantic shipmates, @TheOrganist may be misleading you. You can buy the distasteful things here. It's that he doesn't buy them and doesn't wear them. Nor do I.

    Precisely. If I do wear a short-sleeved garment it is a polo shirt.
    Polo shirts are one type of short-sleeved shirt, as are tee shirts and shirts like this.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Casual shirts don't take ties by definition. If you're wearing a tie, you're in formal wear.

    Really? I think of formal as meaning a lot more than a tie!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I am reminded of the prominent local lawyer who never wore a short-sleeved shirt and dressed as you describe with sleeves rolled up. He did this because he didn’t want people to see the tattoo he got while in the navy and later regretted. People didn’t see the tattoo, but they regularly wondered why in the world he had a long-sleeves shirt on.

    In my early years at the bar, very few court houses were air-conditioned, but we were still expected to wear full rig in summer. Occasionally a thoughtful judge would give permission to remove wigs; a very thoughtful one permission to remove gown or jacket (never both). An appearance in Dubbo in February was challenging.
  • {Slight tangent.}

    I felt sorry for the folks at the impeachment hearings. They look drained, and some had sweaty faces. Many of the men were in a jacket and a long-sleeved shirt. (All crowded into the same one! ;) )

    I don't know what the weather was in DC. But the chamber had too many people crammed together.
  • Interestingly we've moved from language showing differences to modes of dress showing differences, not just between Brits, Americans, and Aussies, but within those countries as well.

    In my experience "formal" when referring to clothing refers to either morning coat, tuxedo, or tails.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Interestingly we've moved from language showing differences to modes of dress showing differences, not just between Brits, Americans, and Aussies, but within those countries as well.

    In my experience "formal" when referring to clothing refers to either morning coat, tuxedo, or tails.

    Present use here:

    Black tie - white shirt, normal collar, frilly front, black bow tie of course, dinner suit which is a black suit with satin lapels and a thin strip down the outside of trousers. In summer, a white jacket with plain lapels is ok.

    White tie - white shirt, wing collar, white bow tie, formal suit having a cut away jacket with long tails and the satin strip down the outside of trousers, probably satin lapels.

    Formal - not used afaics.

    White tie is normally only seen on conductors at very serious concerts, and on the most formal of occasions.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    If you're wearing a tie, you're in formal wear.
    What about business attire, or what some here would call “coat-and-tie,” and others would call “Sunday go-to-meetin’ clothes”?

    I call that formal.

    A lot of this discussion is like a different world though; I've almost never been required to wear this black tie, white tie stuff for anything. It's just not something that happens. Suit and tie if I'm forced to is as far as it goes. I think I've worn a bow tie of any colour about three times, and that for singing in concerts.
  • I think that applies to many of us, KarlLB.

    The first time I was invited to a 'black-tie' event I went wearing a, well, a black tie. I didn't know it referred to a bow-tie.

    A suit and tie counts as 'formal' in my book.

    I used to wear a suit and tie to work but other than funerals and ceremonial occasions I rarely wear them these days.
  • I am declassé apparently. I frequently wear a tie with a short sleeve dress shirt.

    I do not know the difference between a blazer and a sport jacket.

    Nor holidays and vacation.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    If you're wearing a tie, you're in formal wear.
    What about business attire, or what some here would call “coat-and-tie,” and others would call “Sunday go-to-meetin’ clothes”?
    I call that formal.
    A suit and tie counts as 'formal' in my book.
    Well, an attire and language difference, I guess. As @mousethief says, suit-and-tie would not typically be called “formal” here. The average male might wear formal attire for two occasions that I can think of in his life: high school prom (though formal wear for prom has gotten “creative” color-wise and in other ways since the 70s) and for a wedding in which he is the groom or a groomsman. This means tuxes or other formal wear are usually rented for these occasions. Suits-and-ties seem be increasing for the wedding party, though, and increasingly I see high school and college parties designated as “formals,” but to which suits-and-ties are worn.

    Beyond that, men who are in some musical ensembles might have tuxes for performances, and of course some men have reason to wear formal wear on other occasions.

  • When my parents moved from England to Australia in 1948 my mother experienced some difficulties in changes of language. Our family was invited to a function and were asked to bring a plate. Mum thought that there must be a real shortage in plates due to the war and actually took extras to help out. She was seriously embarrassed to discover that bring a plate in Australia means to bring one plate containing food to share. :)
  • I'd imagine if you are a pilot, police officer or prison officer, or in the armed forces there are times of the year when your uniform consists of a tie and and short-sleeved shirt

    I went to a school for forces children, and can remember the time when "short sleeved order" was called (presumably co-inciding with the same for the soldiers/air force ) and that was when the school uniform permitted the wearing of short sleeves.
  • I knew a salesman who always wore short sleeved shirts on the grounds that since it was rarely warm enough to remove his jacket, nobody noticed.

    On the formal/informal thing - I don't detect a great deal of difference between the US and other Anglophone countries in terms of the occasions when someone might wear a tux or equivalent.

    I suppose I was thinking of grades of formality - a suit and tie would be relatively formal - a tuxedo or equivalent would be very formal.

    Back in the day everyone wore suits. I'm old enough to remember older fellas wearing suits on the beach or - as in Ireland - farmers cycling to Mass on ancient black bikes wearing ancient black suits and Grandad shirts with flat caps looking like something from the 1920s.
  • I was taught that you should show just a little shirt cuff when wearing a jacket, so you couldn't get away with a short sleeved shirt and pretend to be well dressed.
  • Wet Kipper wrote: »
    I'd imagine if you are a pilot, police officer or prison officer, or in the armed forces there are times of the year when your uniform consists of a tie and and short-sleeved shirt.

    A recent Chief of Police in Phoenix, Arizona decreed that his uniformed officers wear long-sleeved shirts all year. In Phoenix -- where the summer temperature can go as high as 122F (50C). He was not popular.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Wet Kipper wrote: »
    I'd imagine if you are a pilot, police officer or prison officer, or in the armed forces there are times of the year when your uniform consists of a tie and and short-sleeved shirt.

    A recent Chief of Police in Phoenix, Arizona decreed that his uniformed officers wear long-sleeved shirts all year. In Phoenix -- where the summer temperature can go as high as 122F (50C). He was not popular.

    What is with people like this? Are they stupid, sadistic, or what?
  • well, if it's hot enough for short sleeves, you won't be wearing the Jacket :tongue:
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    ...White tie is normally only seen on conductors at very serious concerts, and on the most formal of occasions.
    Male instrumentalists in orchestras normally wear white tie; these days, conductors are apt to show up in black Nehru jackets or something modeled on Soviet apparatchik-wear. The gentlemen of the chorus are generally in tuxedo jackets and trousers.

    For matinees, the rule is dark suits and ties. For outdoor music festivals in the summer, substitute dinner jackets (white) for the tails and tuxes.

    The women of the chorus are usually found in long black dresses, although dressy black slacks are appearing more often. For the women of the orchestra, almost anything goes.


  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    For the women of the orchestra, almost anything goes.

    Although always dark and nearly always black, in my experience.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I was at a concert by the Norwegian Radio Orchestra a couple of years ago, and the ladies wore turquoise dresses. They looked lovely.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Rossweisse, I can't recall the last time I saw the orchestra in white tie.

    When I started at the Bar, required dress in superior courts was wing collar and bibs under that. The bib tied at the back, so was difficult. Then came the invention of velcro, and at the same time jabots came on the scene. Out with wing collar and bib, in with velcro-secured jabots. Some jabots were extremely frilly indeed, excessively so.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I am reminded of the prominent local lawyer who never wore a short-sleeved shirt and dressed as you describe with sleeves rolled up. He did this because he didn’t want people to see the tattoo he got while in the navy and later regretted. People didn’t see the tattoo, but they regularly wondered why in the world he had a long-sleeves shirt on.

    And usually, when you see arms that are fully tattooed, the tattoos end where the edge of the cuff of a long sleeve.
  • Indeed. My children tell me that a full arm tattoo is known as a Sleeve.
  • Right, but the tattoo in question wasn’t a sleeve. It was a tattoo on the upper arm, gotten in the navy in the 1950s. A short sleeve might cover it, but with movement it might not.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    Here is an article that says Appalachian English is closest to Elizabethan I English.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I'd say more like 17th century English. But it's an interesting piece.

    The dialect of the Gullah people of the Carolinian-Georgia barrier islands is an interesting mix of antique English, Scottish dialect, and various African languages.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    I'd say more like 17th century English. But it's an interesting piece.

    The dialect of the Gullah people of the Carolinian-Georgia barrier islands is an interesting mix of antique English, Scottish dialect, and various African languages.

    And very endangered, sadly.
  • that's a bummer or a real bummer was a common enough phrase around here even in the 50s.Haven't read everything on this thread but has anyone mentioned the Scottish expression 'heid bummer' ? as in' he's the heid bummer' (he is the top man who gives the orders)
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I'd say more like 17th century English. But it's an interesting piece.

    The dialect of the Gullah people of the Carolinian-Georgia barrier islands is an interesting mix of antique English, Scottish dialect, and various African languages.

    And very endangered, sadly.
    Both the Gullan dialect and the old Appalachian dialect are very endangered, I’m afraid, as is the "high tider" brogue of the NC Outer Banks.

  • I read an article some while back which said the Gullah are being forced out of their homes by real estate developers. They scatter into the hinterlands (the Gullah not the r.e.d.), breaking up their language community and ensuring the rapid death of their language/dialect.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    Given what's been happening all along the Carolinas-Georgia-Florida coast for the last several decades, I wouldn't be at all surprised. It's beyond sad.
  • Wet Kipper wrote: »

    I went to a school for forces children, and can remember the time when "short sleeved order" was called (presumably co-inciding with the same for the soldiers/air force ) and that was when the school uniform permitted the wearing of short sleeves.

    You reminded me that that happened in my school; it meant ties off too, and was the only time we were meant to take our jackets off while eating. I never got the hang of that - it seemed so natural to hang your jacket on the back of your chair and roll your sleeves up so as not to get them in your gravy (or sponge-and-custard).
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    I read an article some while back which said the Gullah are being forced out of their homes by real estate developers. They scatter into the hinterlands (the Gullah not the r.e.d.), breaking up their language community and ensuring the rapid death of their language/dialect.
    My late uncle, who grew up and spent his adult life in Charleston, spoke fluent Gullah. I always found it fascinating. It will be a major cultural loss when it dies out.

  • Re ties between Appalachian English (and that of other remote places) and Elizabethan (and other old forms):

    Back in the '70s, IIRC, country singer Mel Tillis was on a TV talk show. He brought this up. Unfortunately, the other people on stage didn't believe him.

    That stuck with me, for some reason. Maybe because I like languages. Maybe because I like (seemingly) odd little connections like that.

    Catherine Marshall's beloved novel, Christy, had characters living in the mountains of the Southern US. (Might not have been Appalachians.) They also spoke in ways that had very old connections. Christy may've opened more eyes than Mel did.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    You reminded me that that happened in my school; it meant ties off too, and was the only time we were meant to take our jackets off while eating. I never got the hang of that - it seemed so natural to hang your jacket on the back of your chair and roll your sleeves up so as not to get them in your gravy (or sponge-and-custard).

    Chair? We had benches - there's nowhere to hang your clothes on a bench!
  • You reminded me that that happened in my school; it meant ties off too, and was the only time we were meant to take our jackets off while eating. I never got the hang of that - it seemed so natural to hang your jacket on the back of your chair and roll your sleeves up so as not to get them in your gravy (or sponge-and-custard).

    Chair? We had benches - there's nowhere to hang your clothes on a bench!

    Ah, what we would have given for a bench. We sat on rough boulders, and liked it.

    </monty python>
  • "Sat"? We only stood...or walked...or ran.

    {Muttering: Lazy kids. Get off my lawn!}
  • You stood? You had LEGS?!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    Golden Key wrote: »
    "Sat"? We only stood...or walked...or ran.

    {Muttering: Lazy kids. Get off my lawn!}

    In my neck of the woods, you may have gotten shot with rock salt if you did not get of the lawn.

    Yes, they had shotgun shells loaded with rock salt. Stung like the dickens
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Wet Kipper wrote: »
    I'd imagine if you are a pilot, police officer or prison officer, or in the armed forces there are times of the year when your uniform consists of a tie and and short-sleeved shirt.

    A recent Chief of Police in Phoenix, Arizona decreed that his uniformed officers wear long-sleeved shirts all year. In Phoenix -- where the summer temperature can go as high as 122F (50C). He was not popular.

    What is with people like this? Are they stupid, sadistic, or what?
    In very intense sunlight I frequently wear long sleeves. Better than sun guck (which is one of the names for sunscreen lotion).
  • NP--

    "Guck", rather than "gunk" (US)?

    Thx.
  • edited December 2019
    Yes, guck. Because it is liquidy. Gunk is more like the dirt under your fingernails, not a liquid. Though when you open a crab up by taking off its head shell, there is a mix of what the crab has been eating, partly digested inside it and between the gills and in the body cavity. It is apparently more properly called "tamale" I think, but we called it "gunk" which my father claimed was from New Brunswick in the 1950s. It's quite tasty actually.

    While leads me to greeblies which are things that float in your drink that shouldn't be there.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    "Sat"? We only stood...or walked...or ran.

    {Muttering: Lazy kids. Get off my lawn!}

    In my neck of the woods, you may have gotten shot with rock salt if you did not get of the lawn.

    Yes, they had shotgun shells loaded with rock salt. Stung like the dickens

    Amazing how we blithely used to accept physical violence against children isn't it?

  • While leads me to greeblies which are things that float in your drink that shouldn't be there.

    Those are "floaters" - especially when referring to saliva left behind from someone with whom you have shared your drink

    person A : Cavva swally o yer ginger, pal ?
    Person B : Aye, nae floaters, mind!

    (and in the spirit of the Ship's rule of using English translations

    Person A: I say, old chap, might I be able to consume some of your carbonated beverage ?
    Person B: why of course, but do be careful not to contaminate it with excess saliva!
  • Coud someone please explain to a confused elderly Brit: What is a Ball Park? and Where is Left Field? I'm stumped!
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Coud someone please explain to a confused elderly Brit: What is a Ball Park? and Where is Left Field? I'm stumped!
    A ballpark is a field or stadium where baseball is played. Left field is the left side of the field from the perspective of a batter facing the pitcher’s mound, particularly the area beyond third base. This article might help that all make sense, but I offer no guarantees.

    To “hit it out of the park” literally means for a batter to score a home run by hitting the ball beyond the edge of the park, so that it can’t be caught. Figuratively, it means to do something really, really well.

    To say that something “came out of left field” means it was unexpected, odd or strange—something you didn’t see coming.
  • edited December 2019
    Wet Kipper wrote: »

    While leads me to greeblies which are things that float in your drink that shouldn't be there.

    Those are "floaters" - especially when referring to saliva left behind from someone with whom you have shared your drink

    person A : Cavva swally o yer ginger, pal ?
    Person B : Aye, nae floaters, mind!

    (and in the spirit of the Ship's rule of using English translations

    Person A: I say, old chap, might I be able to consume some of your carbonated beverage ?
    Person B: why of course, but do be careful not to contaminate it with excess saliva!
    The saliva thing is "back wash". Greeblies are not that.

    It would be said here:

    Person A: can I have a sip of your pop? (you might hear bud or man for pal, but probably not)
    Person B: okay, no back wash though!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Coud someone please explain to a confused elderly Brit: What is a Ball Park? and Where is Left Field? I'm stumped!

    No stumps in baseball, you're talking of another game.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    ... This article might help that all make sense, but I offer no guarantees. ...
    And people claim cricket is mysterious.

  • TBH, I don't understand (cross Pond) how anyone wields a seemingly unwieldy cricket bat--especially with such a short handle.

    And yes, I know it's used differently than in baseball.
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