Anyone know what is happening in Hong Kong - why the violence?

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  • Wasn't the extradition BILL withdrawn? It did not become law. The protests have taken on something different now. Why focus on something that is no longer on the table?
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    ...It's wrong to assume there is a creeping, sneaky master plan here. ...But the CCP has learned to be better at concealing internal division and presenting a united message to the public. I would not be surprised if there is some serious rancor and fingerpointing going on right now over Hong Kong. The idea that the CCP is this well-oiled machine with a clear plan for everything is an illusion, fostered both by CCP propaganda and Western hysteria.
    Events and oppression elsewhere in China argue against your points. I know too much about bureaucracies, as well as totalitarian states, to think that there's a "clear plan for everything," but I think that squelching what independence HK has is definitely in the works.


  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Well, actually, come to think of it, how DOES that work in the US, where, almost alone among the industrialized democracies, criminal law is written at the state level, with some fairly wide variations between jurisdictions?

    Criminal law here is a combination of the law of the various States (for most offences) and Commonwealth law for offences against Commonwealth legislation. There is extradition between the States. It is a matter for the courts and not executive action/decision. AFAIK, there is no need for the matter alleged to be an offence against the law of both the State seeking extradition and the State where the accused is arrested. So in your sodomy law example, an Illinois court would need to be satisfied that the person before the court was in fact the person named in the warrant and that the offence alleged was an offence against Alabama law.

    International extradition is different; theAttorney-General will not seek extradition if the person if convicted could face the death penalty unless there is an undertaking that that shall not be sought/not carried out*.

    *It may be that the legislation of the jurisdiction seeking extradition provides that the death penalty is the only one which a court may impose for that offence; an undertaking for executive clemency would be sought.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    ...It's wrong to assume there is a creeping, sneaky master plan here. ...But the CCP has learned to be better at concealing internal division and presenting a united message to the public. I would not be surprised if there is some serious rancor and fingerpointing going on right now over Hong Kong. The idea that the CCP is this well-oiled machine with a clear plan for everything is an illusion, fostered both by CCP propaganda and Western hysteria.
    Events and oppression elsewhere in China argue against your points. I know too much about bureaucracies, as well as totalitarian states, to think that there's a "clear plan for everything," but I think that squelching what independence HK has is definitely in the works.


    Maybe there was something in your earlier post I didn't see Rossweisse but the part of your post quted by Sir P. seemed an unusual jumping off point for discussing factionalism in the Chinese Communist Party. I read something somewhere that distinguished the Party from the Government. It's interesting that Sir P. takes another approach here.
  • It is possible to be a politician in China without being in the Party- about a third of the legislature are not CCP members, and in local governments there are often non-members serving- but the Party is supreme in determining policy, and anyone with serious disagreements with the Party would be disqualified from elections. And it goes without saying that the highest offices will be filled by Party officials. Xi Jinping is often called "president" in English but his actual title is "Zhuxi" which is Chairman of the Party and, by virtue of that, head of state.
  • edited September 18
    The “independent” China Tribunal was set up by the “International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China.” If you go to their management page and look up the names you’ll see that they are all Falun Gong members or writers for Falun Gong’s newspaper the Epoch Times. So this “independent tribunal” was set up by Falun Gong. For some reason they are not up front about this connection.
    The former Canadian MP David Kilgour documented this organ transplant scheme back in 2006. Nothing to do with these people. http://www.david-kilgour.com/2006/Kilgour-Matas-organ-harvesting-rpt-July6-eng.pdf

    Kilgour was a secretary of state of Asia and Pacific and a crown prosecutor. Considered credible in the Canadian context at least. Update: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/report-alleges-china-killing-thousands-of-prisoners-to-harvest-organs/article30559415/
    "China has acknowledged the use of prisoner organs in the past, but said the practice stopped last year."

    So yes, they're doing it.
  • We discussed Kilgour a few pages back. He's been involved with Falun Gong for a while now.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    ...So yes, they're doing it.
    It sure looks that way.

    As to accusations that these stories are all a put-up from Falun Gong members, there's this from the Globe and Mail article:
    ...The authors contend that no one has more reason to pry back official secrecy than those persecuted. "The only places reporting on the Holocaust during the Holocaust in '43 and '44 were the Jewish papers. And they were discredited for exactly that reason," Mr. Gutmann said. ...
    Read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest.

  • So Gutmann isn't denying that these reports essentially rely on Falun Gong testimony, he's saying that makes it even more likely to be true. That's a truly amazing argument.

    And then he compares FG to the Jews in Nazi Germany. More amazingness.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited September 18
    While we're digging up interesting Canadian articles, here's an interesting article that came out last month, investigating Canadian politicians/ former politicians connected to the MeK cult. Our man David Kilgour has a lot to say:
    Of all former MPs who have engaged with the MEK in recent years, David Kilgour appears to be among the most directly involved. A retired MP and former lawyer, Kilgour currently sits as co-chair of Canadian Friends of a Democratic Iran, which he said has “no membership or budget.”

    “We do support Mrs. Rajavi,” Kilgour told National Observer. “I’ve read about her, met her, talked to her...everything she stands for in her 10-point plan — no nuclear weapons for Iran, equality for men and women, democracy — all these things presumably you and I and everyone else from the democratic world stand for.”

    When asked for comment on recent media reports that detail its cultish practices, Kilgour said he had seen no evidence of authoritarian control or forced labour during recent escorted political delegation visits to an MEK compound, Camp Ashraf in Iraq.

    “I was a public prosecutor for 10 years and I hope no one’s more opposed to the sort of thing you’re talking about than I am,” he said.

    In notes he prepared and published online for an MEK international broadcast held at Sandy Hill Community Centre in Ottawa last December, Kilgour quotes heavily from Struan Stevenson, a former Scottish member of the European Parliament. “I believe Struan Stevenson is a completely honest man who tries to write only what he knows and believes to be true,” he said.

    Stevenson’s account relates how the new compound has been constructed by “hard-working and resilient freedom fighters” into “a small city, with shops, clinics, sports facilities, kitchens, bakeries, dormitory blocks, meeting halls, offices and studios. He said the MEK men and women are free to come and go as they please and journalists, politicians, lawyers and trades people visit frequently.

    Kilgour suggested National Observer speak to his co-chair, Golestaneh, who he described as “the leader” of MEK in Canada.
  • So this guy David Kilgour is deeply embedded with not one but two crazy cults, both of which are the darlings of Western pro-regime change politicians and think tanks.

    Meanwhile Ethan Gutmann is associated not with one but two neo-con think tanks, the Brookings Institution and the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

    Finally, David Matas has some interesting history himself:
    David Matas, a human rights lawyer and an R&D board member, has given several lectures defending the MEK and arguing for its removal from the terrorist list. On at least one occasion his travel expenses to Europe were paid by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), which the U.S. State Department describes as the MEK’s political front.



  • So SirP is your position that David Kilgour is a nut, the Chinese haven't done anything wrong re organ transplantation? Do you have any reservations, at all?
  • NPNP, I've presented evidence for what I believe to be a serious lack of credibility by the primary authors of these organ harvesting reports. The sources I use are not Chinese government organs, and in some cases come directly from the men themselves.

    Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I take your response to be a rhetorical question, suggesting that, because I question the credibility of these men, I must therefore believe that "the Chinese haven't done anything wrong".

    I challenge you to provide your rationale for that conclusion.
  • Re organ harvesting, indeed. Is there enough evidence for you to suggest the Chinese have something to answer re that?

    FWIW, my untimely dead uncle was friend to David Kilgour, and I met him once many years ago. Can't suggest anything about his credibility based on that. He was a very pleasant man to speak to for a few hours. We've certainly had odd ball MPs, though less frequently crown prosecutors.
  • Re organ harvesting, indeed. Is there enough evidence for you to suggest the Chinese have something to answer re that?

    I again ask you to “show your work” as it were and demonstrate how my skepticism of the Kilgour-Matas-Gutmann team leads you to conclude that I believe “the Chinese haven’t done anything wrong.”

    Regarding the allegations themselves I refer you to the Washington Post article I linked earlier in the thread.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    edited September 26
    (deleted)
  • It's amazing to me that the protests continue unresolved. I still watch with dread and without hope.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    This article from today's New York Times makes things a little clearer.
  • Appalling scenes last night on the BBC of a lone counter-protestor with a PRC flag being beaten by the mob.
  • I’ve heard of cases where someone just shouts “Triad!” to get a mob to beat up a random person. And if you’re caught speaking Mandarin you are fair game for harassment as well.
  • This video has gotten the author lots of death threats.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited September 29
    From whom?! The insurrectionists I presume.
  • Revolutionary actions tend towards that sort of mob violence, which is why gradual and compromised change is to be preferred.
  • Not a dinner party, right?
  • So SirP is your position that David Kilgour is a nut, the Chinese haven't done anything wrong re organ transplantation? Do you have any reservations, at all?

    I think the problem with people associated with the organisations named above is that they have a record of finding a foreign policy 'solution' first, and then fitting in facts and associations later.
  • So SirP is your position that David Kilgour is a nut, the Chinese haven't done anything wrong re organ transplantation? Do you have any reservations, at all?

    I think the problem with people associated with the organisations named above is that they have a record of finding a foreign policy 'solution' first, and then fitting in facts and associations later.

    Right. It's pretty clear, based on their various right-wing, pro-regime change connections, that these guys have an agenda which they are willing to fabricate information to fit. Is Kilgour a nut? I don't think so. At first I thought he was simply a dupe but now that I know about his pro-MEK lobbying, he seems to be a run-of-the-mill scumbag. Likewise David Matas shills for the MEK too, in addition to being the senior counsel of B'nai Brith Canada, a right-wing pro-Israel lobbying group.

    Western foreign policy establishments love weird cults like MEK and Falun Gong because they have provide an "opposition" angle and have lurid stories that make great propaganda. And lapdog media gobble it up without question. It's too bad L Ron Hubbard wasn't Venezuelan or Cuban- if he were, we could be hearing about how the Scientologists are a brutally persecuted "spiritual community."

  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 2
    Video of a Hong Kong protester getting shot. 17 protesters swarm five cops; one cop gets cut off and a protester swings at him with an iron bar. The cop draws his pistol and fires a single round into the assailant’s chest. The other rioters flee but not before one of them throws a Molotov in apparent disregard for their friend’s life. The shot protestor is recovering in hospital now, reportedly in stable condition. I can assure you that, if someone came charging at a US cop with a weapon (or even without one- see Michael Brown) he would be dead.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    A new motto for the HKPD: "Not as brutal as American cops!"
  • HK blackshirts beating up some old dude. For democracy, of course.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 2
    HK protestors ransacking a Fujianese shop. HK Fujianese tend to support the government, in large part due to the xenophobic/nativist streak in the protests. A lot of HK Fujianese are actually HK natives, but not native enough for the "pro-democracy" crowd.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Here are some protestors smashing up a Japanese fast food joint. Don’t worry, though, they’re doing it for freedom. Teriyaki is a communist plot.
  • The attack on the man with the Chinese flag, mentioned above.
  • You do realise that street protests often get very ugly. Mob violence is a thing. Your myopic focus is problematic Sir P. What are you trying to achieve?
  • Myopic focus? What's the big picture, Simon?
  • I mean your focus on protestor violence.
  • What should I focus on, Simon, in a thread about violence in the HK protests? Should we go on another tangent about some ridiculous Falun Gong propaganda?
  • Office worker from the mainland on lunch break gets harassed by thugs and “reporters”. Asks one of them for press ID who then walks away. He shouts, in Mandarin, “Women dou shi Zhongguoren/We are all Chinese!” before a white “journalist” wearing a mask blocks him from entering his workplace. Then someone jumps in and assaults him.
  • What should I focus on, Simon, in a thread about violence in the HK protests? Should we go on another tangent about some ridiculous Falun Gong propaganda?

    If you feel unable to answer the question, that is fine. People can draw their own conclusions.
  • I can understand why exposing these acts makes people like you uncomfortable.
  • Huh? If you don't want to answer the question, just say so straight.
  • Hong Kong primary school teacher with his children sings the national anthem and is assaulted.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    You do realise that street protests often get very ugly. Mob violence is a thing. Your myopic focus is problematic Sir P. What are you trying to achieve?

    I think there are some indications that the protests are turning into something other than what they were originally reported as - as such that seems to be a reasonable focus for discussion in this thread.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited October 4
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    You do realise that street protests often get very ugly. Mob violence is a thing. Your myopic focus is problematic Sir P. What are you trying to achieve?

    I think there are some indications that the protests are turning into something other than what they were originally reported as - as such that seems to be a reasonable focus for discussion in this thread.

    The way of peace they know not. Hopefully there are no Christians involved, except as police. Apart from nominal ones of course.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 4
    The xenophobia of the "pro-democracy" camp isn't new- it's something that's been remarked upon for years by various observers, and inflamed by Jimmy Lai's Apple Daily and other propagandists. It's not just some mob reflex but a deliberately cultivated attitude.

    I've shared it before but this New York Times article from June reflects the thinking of many of the protestors- that is, the police must be deliberately provoked into violence, thereby bringing more sympathy and support from the population. (Note also the author's support for Hong Kong Indigenous, a right-wing nativist group.) The article does advocate non-violent methods or "marginal violence", yet even after months of massive destruction of public and private property, and armed assaults on police, the desired over-reaction has not come and the HK police have thus far been restrained.

    This has undoubtedly been a disappointment not only to the fanatics on the streets but to the US state department and other Western powers, who are the only ones who stand to gain from the chaos. The HK protests at this point are a stew of nihilism and delusion. These kids are basically destroying their own home and will have nothing to show for it.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    How does the West gain? And provoking power is what the leaders of insurrections do; it's standard revolutionary warfare. Provoking power to oppress the masses and create waters for the leaders to swim in, with increasing violence in both directions. Often in the name of democracy.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    How does the West gain?

    If the crisis manages to cripple Hong Kong as a financial hub, that would weaken China's economic power significantly. There has already been some capital flight to Singapore but not yet a serious dent.

    A massacre would of course be a delightful propaganda gift.

    No matter what, though, the protestors are straw dogs.
    And provoking power is what the leaders of insurrections do; it's standard revolutionary warfare.

    Of course. In many situations it makes a grim kind of sense. In Hong Kong, it doesn't. An insurgency would have to hurt the PRC hard enough to convince it that it's less costly to lose HK than to keep it. That will never happen.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited October 4
    Agreed. Under no circumstances. Except I cannot see how the West gains in the worst theoretical case. I cannot see how China's loss is the West's gain, apart from some narrow, mercantilist, share of the fictitiously fixed cake way.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I'm not sorry the protesters are breaking up the celebration of 70 years of PRC mass murders, slaughter for organs, imprisonments, slave labor, forced abortions and sterilizations, deliberate destruction of ethnic cultures, surveillance, religious suppression, and all the rest of their human rights violations and destruction. I'm sorry the protests have changed their nature. I'm assuming that most of these people are not, at this point, police provocateurs, but I expect that there's still some of that. I pray that peace may come to HK, and not the PRC-style peace of the grave.

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