Anyone know what is happening in Hong Kong - why the violence?

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  • Fortunately the thugs of Hong Kong did not interrupt the 70th anniversary which went splendidly :smiley:
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Another in your series of Twitter videos of straw dogs?
  • Have you ever been squiggled by the cuddle clock?
  • Another Fujianese owned store ransacked with “Chinazi” spray painted. All Fujianese are now accused of being “Triads”.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    This was interesting, but kind of odd coming from the newspaper's chief news editor.
    ... there are thousands of youngsters on the streets who have tasted blood and become intoxicated by the success of mob rule. They are supported by a massive demographic that includes lawyers, teachers, doctors and other professionals who constantly gloss over and find excuses for all the outrageous excesses on the front lines of the anti-government movement.
    The author's bafflement is clear, but I would have thought he'd be able to glean some insight into these people's reactions by talking to them, however much he disagrees with them. Doesn't he know any "lawyers, teachers, doctors, and other professionals"?
  • What makes you think he hasn’t talked to them? He doesn’t seem baffled to me.
  • Someone spray painted “支那“ (Shina) on a shop. This is an old WWII-era Japanese racial slur for Chinese, equivalent to “chink.” It’s appeared in a lot of protest graffiti.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    What makes you think he hasn’t talked to them? He doesn’t seem baffled to me.
    Really? You think he totally gets why all these white collar professionals are (supposedly) supporting the "outrageous excesses"? I don't. In each column he's written on the protests since June he's gotten more and more frustrated with the protesters, and now he's bewildered by (what he sees as) the fact that the vast majority don't seem to share his shock and outrage.
  • Of course he gets it. It’s pretty hard not to hear their message. Rationalizations and thinkpieces are all over social media and the news. Even the SCMP publishes pro-protest editorials, enough that PRC jingoists accuse them of being CIA propaganda.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    I don't think he's puzzled by what the protesters say they want, I think he sounds puzzled by why all the lawyers, teachers, doctors, and other professionals excuse their "outrageous excesses." I mean, he obviously doesn't think they're excusable, but for some reason (he says) the vast majority do, and he doesn't offer any explanation for why that might be the case.
  • He doesn’t sound puzzled at all.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    He sounds to me like one of those conservatives who thought the Republican party really was all about limited government, cutting taxes, and balancing the budget and then all of a sudden HOLY CRAP Donald Trump has a 90% approval rating and it turns out he really doesn't understand these people at all.
  • There were people with legitimate grievances and tangible, realistic demands. I mean, they’re still around, adamantly maintaining they are not looking for independence, but, as often happens with mass movements without clear leadership, the craziest people took control of the narrative.
  • Here are a bunch of people declaring a new provisional government. Madness. I mean, yeah, this sort of thing happens in revolutions but there’s an army to back it up. Kids with sticks and hammers are not that.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Fortunately the thugs of Hong Kong did not interrupt the 70th anniversary which went splendidly :smiley:
    You gotta love mass murderers who pull things off with style, apparently.

    I'm not a fan of the PRC or its wicked works.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Someone spray painted “支那“ (Shina) on a shop. This is an old WWII-era Japanese racial slur for Chinese, equivalent to “chink.” It’s appeared in a lot of protest graffiti.

    How much currency would that particular phrase have among Hong Kongers generally?

    Serious question, 'cuz obviously, I really don't know. But what I'm thinking is, for example, if one group of Jewish people were protesting against another group of Jewish people, and some of the protestors allegedly spraypainted Nazi anti-Jewish slurs on shops owned by their Jewish opponents, that would send my "provocateur" alarm bells ringing pretty loudly. Because Jews don't generally use anti-Jewish slurs to criticize each other.

    But if it is something that Chinese people would generally say about each other, or perhaps Hong Kongers about mainlanders, well, I guess that could be plausible.

  • It should be noted that these are archaic characters, which have fallen out of use in China but were commonly used before the Sino-Japanese wars. The use of these characters by the Japanese during those wars as the only characters for China gave them an unsavoury flavour to Chinese, as the language of the oppressor. During the Cultural Revolution different characters for "China" were introduced in the People's Republic, in Japan a different kanji is now used (中国, chūgoku). Korea and Vietnam continue to use these characters for "China". BTW, shina is the Japanese word, in Cantonese the characters would be for the word jee-na, I'm not sure why archaic Chinese characters would be pronounced as they would be in Japan when we're talking about Hong Kong.

    These characters have become common within the Hong Kong protest movements over recent years. Part of that appears to be a rejection of the newer characters produced during the Cultural Revolution, which falls within the narrative of the protests that Hong Kong is different from the mainland and the protestors don't want to be part of mainland China under Communist rule - the use of these archaic characters are a rebellion against the innovations of Communism. Part of it is the connotations with imperialism and occupation by a foreign power (the characters associated with Japanese occupation, but the message is to equate the Communist Chinese control with that time in Chinese history). Part of it's certainly because it is offensive.
  • Thanks Alan.

    To clarify 中國/中国 (Traditional/simplified), pronounced Zhongguo in Mandarin, is an ancient name for China- while the simplified characters have a modern PRC association the name doesn’t.

    “China”, “Sina” and similar names are general believed to derive from the Qin dynasty.

    To answer @stetson ‘s question, a lot of the HK protesters are asserting precisely that they are not Chinese. Overseas Chinese- Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc- who have no interest in being PRC will still happily call themselves Chinese. Hong Kongers are something else, something better apparently.
  • why should different = better? Different would be sufficient reason to seek to have control over their own future without implying superiority.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 6
    It’s definitely a sense of superiority. Mainlanders are corrupt, slavish, stupid, etc. Hong Kongers are hardworking, cultured, well-educated, etc. And the superiority doesn’t just apply to actual mainlanders but to 2nd, 3rd generation Hong Kong families with roots in Fujian or elsewhere. A lot of this stems from the days when the mainland was dirt poor (along with normal colonial self-hatred)- now that the mainland is flourishing, with jobs, tech, better schools in Shenzhen, etc while HK is relatively stagnant, the old contempt hasn’t gone away but just added resentment to the mix.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Fortunately the thugs of Hong Kong did not interrupt the 70th anniversary which went splendidly :smiley:
    You gotta love mass murderers who pull things off with style, apparently.

    I'm not a fan of the PRC or its wicked works.

    Or the dreadful historical determinism that made it. It's come a very long way in a very short time, increasing the quality of life of billions of people.
  • This lady is pretty cool: https://youtu.be/ZPYuGYLesx0
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Hope someone showed that to Yonden Lhatoo - might cheer him up.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Or the dreadful historical determinism that made it. It's come a very long way in a very short time, increasing the quality of life of billions of people.
    Yes, those who haven't ended up in massive re-education camps or any of their variants. And I still wouldn't want to be a healthy young dissident with usable organs.

  • There was also a fair whack of greedy westerners who judged that they could make a fortune involved in that economic miracle. And the poverty was engineered by the same crew, courtesy of collectivisation in the countryside and everyone's favorite cultural revolution. Yay for the Chinese Communists! Such great people.
  • China was brutally poor well before the communists arrived. The idea that they “engineered” poverty is beyond absurd. Prior to the PRC, there was a famine every decade or so. The Great Chinese Famine of the 50’s- which was, yes, largely the result of some very bad policy by Mao and friends- was also the last one. The PRC has improved life drastically for everyone since then and lifted over half a billion from poverty.

    But don’t let reality get in the way of your propaganda-induced hysterics.
  • I know what happened and I know who is to blame from the 50's onward.
  • Who is to blame for ending the famines? Who is to blame for lifting 750 million out of poverty?
  • Those people don’t matter, of course. Imaginary Falun Gong organ donors are more important than real Chinese people. The former are at least useful in upholding the Yellow Peril narrative.
  • The same crew who created the chaos in the first place and will do so again. Only a fool would trust those bastards.
  • As opposed to the British who only meant the best with their Opium Wars. You really are a piece of work. Did a Chinese man steal your girlfriend in high school or something?
  • Back to the actual topic of the thread, Hong Kong freedom fighters hard at work attacking a train full of people: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3031906/mtr-corporation-suspends-cross-border-services-mainland
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Host hat on
    You really are a piece of work. Did a Chinese man steal your girlfriend in high school or something?
    This @SirPalomides is out of order. Personal attacks belong only in Hell.
    Host hat off
    BroJames Purgatory Host
  • In the meantime perhaps we can all remember people who are trying to carry on with their normal lives in the midst of the unrest. And please pray for Jackie Pullinger who is very unwell.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    In so far as it would make a difference to her if she knew, this 99.9..9% deist Christian just did (or else never would), because you asked, in terms of thanks for her inspired inspiring work.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Those people don’t matter, of course. Imaginary Falun Gong organ donors are more important than real Chinese people. The former are at least useful in upholding the Yellow Peril narrative.
    Manufacturing a "Yellow Peril narrative" is certainly more fun for those inclined to be Righteously Indignant and less inconvenient than actual PRC murderers.

    Speaking of whom, the Wall Street Journal (behind a paywall, alas) reports that "The U.S. is imposing visa restrictions on Chinese officials linked to the abuse of Muslim minority groups in China's Xinjiang region, where as many as a million people are detained in camps." I'm sure other papers will pick it up.

  • Imagine being so gullible as to automatically believe anything that appears in a Rupert Murdoch rag.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Imagine being so gullible as to automatically believe anything that appears in a Rupert Murdoch rag.
    Host hat on
    Calling another poster gullible, which is what your post appears to do, is a personal attack. There are plenty of other ways you could have expressed your distrust of Murdoch media without doing that. Please avoid personal attacks in Purgatory.
    Host hat off
    BroJames
    Purgatory Host
  • As opposed to the British who only meant the best with their Opium Wars. You really are a piece of work. Did a Chinese man steal your girlfriend in high school or something?

    Am I allowed to say that British Colonialism was awful and so are Chinese Communists? Is that too an impermissible opinion to hold?
  • And yet your desire to return to those days is apparent. I also note your avoidance of the question regarding what China has done end famine and lift hundreds of millions out of poverty.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    As opposed to the British who only meant the best with their Opium Wars. You really are a piece of work. Did a Chinese man steal your girlfriend in high school or something?

    Am I allowed to say that British Colonialism was awful and so are Chinese Communists? Is that too an impermissible opinion to hold?

    They are separated by a century in terms of similar losses. The latter was a direct result of Portuguese, British, Japanese, Russian, French, German, even Italian and Austrian and US imperialism of course. At least 30-50,000,000 died from foreign interference, equalled by The Great Leap Forward 60+/- years ago in just four years, like losses in the Soviet Union to Stalin then Hitler in reverse.

    China has come a long, long way. With a long way to go.
  • The disaster of the Great Leap Forward was recognized within the Party itself, which is why Mao was quietly sidelined. This in turn led Mao and his partisans to launch the Cultural Revolution, which was explicitly billed as a war against "reactionary" elements within the party itself. After 15 years or so of chaos, Mao's faction was defeated and the more pragmatic people (the ones who survived) have led the Party ever since. So Simon's assertion that the same people who perpetrated the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution are in charge of the PRC now is wrong not only because the actual people who did those things are all dead but also because their ideological current within the Party was thoroughly discredited.

    In China today you'll occasionally meet people who openly criticize Marxism- it's a German ideology not suited for China, it didn't work for the West, why would it work for us, etc. No one bothers those people. I saw TV commercials that parodied old Maoist slogans to advertise soft drinks or something. But people that start earnestly agitating for a return to Maoism get detained for "ideological correction."
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited October 9
    The disaster of the Great Leap Forward was recognized within the Party itself, which is why Mao was quietly sidelined. This in turn led Mao and his partisans to launch the Cultural Revolution, which was explicitly billed as a war against "reactionary" elements within the party itself. After 15 years or so of chaos, Mao's faction was defeated and the more pragmatic people (the ones who survived) have led the Party ever since. So Simon's assertion that the same people who perpetrated the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution are in charge of the PRC now is wrong not only because the actual people who did those things are all dead but also because their ideological current within the Party was thoroughly discredited.

    This is all true, and needed to be said.

    But I'll also observe that the Chinese Communists themselves own a big portion of the blame for this ongoing confusion, as they continue to venerate Mao, while pursuing policies that(justifiably, in many cases) roll back everything he tried to do.

    A few years back, I met a starry-eyed sinophile westerner here in Korea, who talked about both Confucius and Mao as great examples of the kind of leaders who have inspired China on its march to greatness. Never mind that Mao hated Confucianism, and launched a violent campaign against it. They were both just mixed into one, uni-dimensional narrative about how China Rocks.

    But I couldn't entirely blame him, because he wasn't that well-informed, and just going by what China itself says, there'd be no reason for him to think otherwise.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 9
    Repudiating Mao altogether would probably be a cure worse than the disease. For better or worse he symbolizes the moment where China finally "stood up" and put an end to a long period of foreign domination and humiliation. Anything appearing or construed to suggest that this whole thing was a mistake is not going to fly. The safer route is to admit he made some grave mistakes which do not outweigh his accomplishments, and to blame the grosser excesses on bad advisers or extremists exploiting his name for their purposes. I think pretty much every country has problematic founding figures that need to be glossed or mythologized in some way. Understandably Mao hagiographies tend to focus more on his activity in the civil war and the war against Japan.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Is there official recognition of grave mistakes? What’s the current government take on the “three years of difficulties”?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Repudiating Mao altogether would probably be a cure worse than the disease. For better or worse he symbolizes the moment where China finally "stood up" and put an end to a long period of foreign domination and humiliation. Anything appearing or construed to suggest that this whole thing was a mistake is not going to fly. The safer route is to admit he made some grave mistakes which do not outweigh his accomplishments, and to blame the grosser excesses on bad advisers or extremists exploiting his name for their purposes. I think pretty much every country has problematic founding figures that need to be glossed or mythologized in some way. Understandably Mao hagiographies tend to focus more on his activity in the civil war and the war against Japan.

    Yeah, I get that a certain level of cognitive-dissonance is neccessary for propaganda purposes. But it's like an American politician who, while firmly believing that no state or region has the right to leave the Union, still likes to be seen waving the Confederate Flag, 'cuz, well, that's just the way you get votes down south: I understand his reasoning, but he really can't complain all that much if people get the impression he's a seccessionist.

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