Anyone know what is happening in Hong Kong - why the violence?

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  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited October 27
    I’ve reached my limit of free WaPo articles. Is this referring to Sonia Ng’s allegation?
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    It doesn't mention her by name, but it alludes to that. It's a feature story about one young female protestor who describes her experiences of being shot by rubber bullets and beanbags and is afraid of being raped:
    For women, the front line can pose particular safety risks. Reports of demonstrators alleging sexual assault by police have contributed to a drop in the number of female protesters on the front lines in recent weeks, said Alexa, who uses the alias to avoid being tracked by authorities.
  • Thanks. So, Rossweisse, apart from these unspecified, anonymous rumors, is there anything that leads you to declare with such certainty that HK police are raping female protestors?

    And, are you familiar with the specific allegations of Sonia Ng?

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I was not familiar with Sonia Ng. None of this is surprising, though, from a violent and corrupt police force.
  • I’ll ask again:
    So, Rossweisse, apart from these unspecified, anonymous rumors, is there anything that leads you to declare with such certainty that HK police are raping female protestors?

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    That's not an unspecified anonymous rumor; it's a researched report published in one of the world's most respected newspapers. And it's typical of violent thugs, which the HK police seem to be.

    Women protesters are being attacked in other ways, too. (There seem to be a lot of sexist trolls in China; they don't even like Carrie Lam.) This is from the respected Hong Kong Free Press.
  • Rossweisse, the article simply reproduces rumors. They’re not claiming to have actually interviewed anyone who was raped by police. Whether or not you think the Washington Post is respectable has no bearing on your duty as a thinking citizen to ask questions about the reliability of particular claims and how a given reporter acquired that information.

    I would also note that a while back I linked an investigation from the same newspaper (the Washington Post) that disputed the claims of Falun Gong organ harvesting based on the WaPo reporter’s own findings in China. In that case you ignored it. So it seems you are only inclined to trust WaPo when its reporting matches your preconceptions.

    As for the HK police being violent thugs- there have been many cases documented of HK police officers perpetrating unnecessary violence against protestors. None of that is excusable. But when held up, as a whole, against police departments around the world, it has to be admitted that the HK police are extraordinarily restrained. Four months of violent rioting, with people attacking cops with firebombs, bricks, steel bars, knives, sometimes with a clearly murderous intent- not a single HK protestor has been killed as a result. That is truly remarkable. I

    There are scenes from ongoing protests in Ecuador and Chile where the police or military are shooting protestors point blank or running them over with armored cars. If this happened in Hong Kong we’d be seeing it play on a loop on CNN.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    @SirPalomides, on another board you referred to "journalistic malpractice" without providing any links. I think the problem here is that you don't like anyone who provides positive coverage for the protesters. (I did think that perhaps you'd feel sorry for Carrie Lam, but evidently not.) And, no, I don't trust or distrust news outlets according to my "preconceptions," although Breitbart might be an exception to that rule.

  • On journalistic malpractice I’ve given several examples on the war in Syria thread. On this thread I’ve given lots of examples of violence by rioters in Hong Kong which are ignored by Western media.

    On the present question, I expressed neither like nor dislike for the WaPo article you posted- I merely asked you about the conclusions you were drawing from it, conclusions which it seems to me even the author of the article would not claim to have established.

    It’s been noted in a few places that misinformation has been spread by both sides in the Hong Kong protests: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3032734/fake-news-and-hong-kong-protests-psychological-war-hearts

    Recently there was an attempt to claim that a girl who committed suicide had been murdered by police: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3033637/using-fake-news-defame-hong-kongs-police

    So when you read unsourced, unverified rumors- even in publications you respect- you should demand more before believing them.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I do, Sir P. I just don't give much credence to totalitarians.
  • Hong Kong protester xenophobia on display in Germany too.
  • Hong Kong protest leader Joey Siu interviewed on Deutsche Welle. There is no future for a movement led by such people.
  • ooh, that is a top show. They would destroy St Francis of Assisi.
  • The lady pretty much destroys herself.
  • That tends to be the preferred method - dragging out the inconsistencies and false conclusions and making the victim trip over themselves. The interviewer is a masterful craftsman and the research impeccable.
  • Someone doused a guy with petrol and set him on fire while he was arguing with protestors: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3037243/hong-kong-father-two-burned-alive-after-chasing
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    And before that, a police officer shot at least one protester at short range, and sent him to the hospital in critical condition.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    I've just come to this thread. There seems to be quite a bit of what-about-ism coming from all around.

    When passions arise often so does nastiness.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited November 12
    Footage of the event. Try assaulting US cops with their guns drawn and see how it turns out.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Better than US cops - there's an endorsement all right.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited November 12
    There was no assault on that footage. The cop tackled the guy in white. The guy who was shot approached. He was shot. He didn't touch the cop. The suggestions as to what was happening on the linked video is post-event speculation at best. I actually reckon the person putting it together is planting suggested explanations in the mind of the viewer. Spin. Pure and simple. Actually, not pure and not simple. Impure and disgusting.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited November 12
    Not spin. Here’s the clip without commentary. He very clearly tried to grab the gun. Meanwhile his buddy attacked the cop from behind. No commentary needed there. These guys are acting this dumb because of the ridiculous restraint HK police have shown over these past months. If he hadn’t fired he would be beset by four or more assailants. No cop in the world would be okay with that, nor should they. Anywhere else it would be called self defense. More than can be said for the people roasting that man alive for arguing with them.
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    SirPalomides: Your daily serving of Hong Kong democracy.


    ....errr, isn't the whole point that Hong Kong isn't a democracy?
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    ISTM that in SirPalomode's world China, outside of Hong Kong, is a very happy place, where levels of satisfaction with the government is exceptionally high, particularly by comparison with western democracies. In some rural areas there is bottom up politics where issues are discussed without the inconvenience of political parties, and a meritocracy ensures that advancement in the society is by educational merit: the Napoleonic ideal of careers open to all the talents. Fortunately, this has been achieved without the downside that characterised states in the former Soviet empire. We thank God.

    The one scar on this paradise is Hong Kong, where there is still a hankering after not only the maintenance of quasi-representative democracy introduced towards the end of the colonial period but a desire, especially amongst the youth, for a western-style constitution. Demonstrations against top-down rule through Peking appointees have forced the authorities to enforce civil peace. Acts of criminal violence have been committed by some of the demonstrators, which forced the police to act with appropriate force. The demonstrators might well reflect that their treatment has been mild compared to that meted out at Tiananman Square, 1989.

    From a liberal democratic view, the violence by the police and the demonstrators should be dealt with through an independent legal process. The causes are fairly obvious, aren't they: a desire on the part of the demonstrators to be governed by consent, and an uncertainty on the part of the authorities how to react. It's not about the balance of alleged atrocities committed by both sides, however regrettable they might be.
    The outcome will be a test of SirPalomides' views concerning the benign nature of the Chinese government. Perhaps there has been a damascene conversion since 1989.
  • Kwesi wrote: »
    SirPalomides: Your daily serving of Hong Kong democracy.


    ....errr, isn't the whole point that Hong Kong isn't a democracy?

    It will be once the naysayers are beaten into submission.

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    There is nothing remotely benign about the Chinese government.
  • 100% evil, 100% of the time. Everyday the Central Committee meets in the Great Palace of Terror to devise new and exquisite oppressions. Anyone who so much as thinks a slightly benevolent proposal- BZZZT the trapdoor opens and it’s a one-way trip to the piranha tank. “Does anybody else think it would be nice to build another hospital? No? Good. Now where were we? Ah yes, turn to page 666 in your Party approved Marquis de Sade anthology...”
  • It's all fun and games until someone gets hit by a flying chunk of democracy.
    A 70-year-old man was fighting for his life on Wednesday after being struck in the head by a brick during a clash between anti-government protesters and residents in Sheung Shui.

    The man was among more than 20 local people who were clearing bricks left by protesters on Lung Wan Street outside the Sheung Shui MTR station around noon. He becomes the second victim to suffer life-threatening injuries in an attack by protesters in the city since Monday.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    100% evil, 100% of the time. Everyday the Central Committee meets in the Great Palace of Terror to devise new and exquisite oppressions. ...
    Tell it to the Uighurs.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited November 14
    Hong Kong. Kashmir. Palestine. Made in England. 'andsome. Makes yer prard dunnit. Burma come to that. Oh yeah, Cape ter Cairo too. Banjul to Lilongwe.
  • Abuse is not for balance sheets. The English were just a sub-set of European brutality, itself a sub-set of human brutality. English people clawing at their own record is the inverse of English and American people overstating the importance and power of the British Empire. The English do that to beef themselves up. The Americans also do it for that reason, as it emphasises the glory of their come-from-behind victory in 1776.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ....The English do that to beef themselves up. The Americans also do it for that reason, as it emphasises the glory of their come-from-behind victory in 1776.
    [pedantry] Actually, 1776 was the year we declared our independence. The come-from-behind victory arrived in 1783. (Thank you, France.) [/pedantry]


  • I stand corrected.
  • It's all fun and games until someone gets hit by a flying chunk of democracy.
    A 70-year-old man was fighting for his life on Wednesday after being struck in the head by a brick during a clash between anti-government protesters and residents in Sheung Shui.

    The man was among more than 20 local people who were clearing bricks left by protesters on Lung Wan Street outside the Sheung Shui MTR station around noon. He becomes the second victim to suffer life-threatening injuries in an attack by protesters in the city since Monday.

    The man died in hospital yesterday.

  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    100% evil, 100% of the time. Everyday the Central Committee meets in the Great Palace of Terror to devise new and exquisite oppressions. ...
    Tell it to the Uighurs.

    Wow. Just did a little reading about this. The USA is trying hard to treat Latin Americans the way the Chinese treat the Uyghurs, including involuntary DNA collection. The world is a shameful place. But let's ignore that and talk about rock-throwing Hong Kongians, clearly a much greater scourge.
  • I believe that is the sinister Kremlin propaganda tactic known as "whataboutism."
  • Disproving a claim by citing a counterexample is not whataboutism. Nice try, professor.
  • Indeed one could say that trotting out the sins of protestors is what-aboutery when the issue is the perfidy and oppression of the Chinese government.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited November 15
    A man has died because a rioter threw a brick at his head. Something you saw on Breitbart about Uyghurs "disproves" that, how?

    What's the title of this thread again?
  • Breitbart writes Wikipedia? You presume too much, sirrah.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Indeed one could say that trotting out the sins of protestors is what-aboutery when the issue is the perfidy and oppression of the Chinese government.

    Did you just whatabout whataboutery? I believe that is what Marxist-Leninists call "negation of the negation." Putin has taught you well.

  • mousethief wrote: »
    Breitbart writes Wikipedia?

    Maybe, maybe not, but the CIA does.

  • Guys, this is a thread about the Hong Kong protests. If you actually want to talk about Uyghurs, and you're not deliberately trying to distract from the fact that a man was murdered by an HK protestor, you can go to the China thread where this has been discussed for a while, or even start your own thread specifically devoted to the topic.
  • Thank you, junior host.
  • .
    mousethief wrote: »
    Indeed one could say that trotting out the sins of protestors is what-aboutery when the issue is the perfidy and oppression of the Chinese government.

    Did you just whatabout whataboutery? I believe that is what Marxist-Leninists call "negation of the negation." Putin has taught you well.

    Hell Call.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    <snip>On this thread I’ve given lots of examples of violence by rioters in Hong Kong which are ignored by Western media.<snip>
    I don’t really feel you have done this SirPalomides. Most of the examples you have given have either been widely reported in western media, or are specific examples of the more general descriptions in western media of protestor violence against mainland Chinese people or institutions.

    You have posted a number of twitter links which are difficult to evaluate at the best of times, even for those with much better resources than most readers of this thread, and impossible in this case for anyone who does not have Cantonese (I’m presuming that’s the language mainly being used rather than Putonghua). They look like, as I’ve said above, specific instances of the protestor violence marring the demonstrations that has been reported in the western media, as indeed has the most recent killing with a brick.

    At the same time your supporting information quite often comes from the South China Morning Post, a publication which (like others about which you have commented adversely) has been criticised for lack of impartiality on the issues.

  • You’re right, maybe that guy really did say something that merited being lit on fire.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Is that intended to be a reply to my post? Because what you have apparently inferred is not what I said.
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