"When in Rome" . . .

As a non-Anglican, I'm curious as to how episcopal oversight and liturgical participation play out when a bishop is serving a diverse diocese --- especially in England, where parishes run the spectrum from nosebleed Anglo-Catholic to so-law-it-crawls, ignore the Prayer Book evangelical. Given that any bishop, no less than a priest, espouses a particular theological and liturgical viewpoint, would an Anglo-Catholic bishop be welcome to preach or do Confirmation in an evangelical parish church, and vice-versa? How do theologically liberal bishops relate to their clergy and parishes whose views don't coincide with theirs? Despite their differences, they are still under his/her oversight. I can't imagine how all this works in such a way as to be copacetic.
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Comments

  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Bishops are a sign of unity. So they do their best to be liturgically sensitive towards the tradition of the church wherever they are presiding. When I was a curate my training minister pointed out to me that the diocesan bishop did not make any manual actions when he was presiding at Holy Communion. And the reason was so that he could be inclusive across all traditions. I don't know if that would apply to all Anglican bishops, but it was his approach to holding diversity across the church.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    I'm not a bishop thank God but have a diocesan role and am in churches around the pad almost every Sunday, usually preaching, often presiding, sometimes just preparing for some sort of consultation ... while occasionally I want to scream imprecations to the heavens, on the whole I whisper thanks that this motley crue of St Whosits in the 'Hood are gathering to cling to belief in an unseen God ...

    The coffee, on the other hand, is a source of great horror
  • In TEC, where the clergy and people of the diocese do the recruiting, interviewing, nominating a slate, and electing the bishop (which election is confirmed by a majority of the House of Bishops) any diversity in theology or practice within the diocese is obvious from the start. So the individual elected is well aware of any need for sensitivity and inclusion of the diversity present. IMHO a messy process perhaps, but a tidy outcome.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Most the bishops I have dealt with have tended to maintain their own churchmanship style within reason even when visiting parishes that were of strongly differing outlooks. That seemed to work quite well in that both sides compromised a little and managed to get along at least for the day. Generally though I have not usually had a strong difference of churchmanship with my bishop, so the visit has usually been quite pleasant, and did not require intense negotiation beforehand to ensure that no-one got bent out of shape.

    That said, I have had some misadventures with bishops, usually those of the Anglo-Catholic variety.
  • It's only a post-post-Tractarian phenomenon surely? In the C of E until the late 19th century liturgical practice was comparatively uniform and whatever different theological slants any bishop might have was not reflected in what he did in church to the same extent as it might have more recently.

    There were some horror stories in the last century of evangelical bishops disapproving of high church parishes to the extent of putting them under a ban, or at least refusing to visit them. One diocese which shall be nameless, but always had a diocesan bishop of the evangelical tradition, usually ensured that the suffragan bishop was more MOTR or catholic-leaning, and it was he (always he until very recently) who was sent to the anglo-catholic parishes. Fortunately this sort of apartheid no longer exists; indeed the present diocesan can be seen decked out in lace celebrating Pontifical High Mass one week, and the next leading Family Worship and wearing a suit.

    The only situation I have come across where the theology of the bishop might be considered a barrier is where Dead Horse issues are involved. In some places that might concern a sizeable minority, but not here.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Apart from the Jensen years of unhappy memory, both the Abp and the Regional Bishop here more or less follow the practice Angloid describes: indeed the present diocesan can be seen decked out in lace celebrating Pontifical High Mass one week, and the next leading Family Worship and wearing a suit The less part is that rather than lace, they wear Canterbury (or Convocation) rig - you choose how you'd describe it - and they don't preside.

    And I'm glad to say that IME they have not discriminated against gays in the congregation or indeed the sanctuary party. That battle by and large was won way back in the 1930's, at Christ Church St Laurence. The Abp had wandered down George St to do some bishoply act, and commented delicately to Fr John Hope that a lot in the congregation looked to be a certain type. Fr John replied robustly along the lines that yes, there were and wasn't it good that they could come there, be welcomed and comfortable, and worship God. Surrender of Abp.
  • That's a wonderful story. Was the church mentioned in Sydney Diocese? And has the Diocese always been staunchly evangelical?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes - about 10 minutes walk from the Cathedral, a minute or so longer if there ae a few red traffic lights.

    Sydney started out traditional C18 CoE. In the late 1840s, 3 Oxford Movement priests came out and it looked as if it would become High. Unfortunately, 2 of them went almost immediately to Rome and there was a very strong reaction downwards. It remained predominantly low to medium after that. Then the Moore College group emerged 35-40 years ago and took many of the low parishes and a lot of the medium ones as well. ++Peter Jensen used his position to place his nominees in as many parishes as he could.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host
    Zappa wrote: »
    I'm not a bishop thank God but have a diocesan role and am in churches around the pad almost every Sunday, usually preaching, often presiding, sometimes just preparing for some sort of consultation ... while occasionally I want to scream imprecations to the heavens, on the whole I whisper thanks that this motley crue of St Whosits in the 'Hood are gathering to cling to belief in an unseen God ...

    The coffee, on the other hand, is a source of great horror

    Out here tea stewed in urns is the devil's brew.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    Zappa wrote: »
    I'm not a bishop thank God but have a diocesan role and am in churches around the pad almost every Sunday, usually preaching, often presiding, sometimes just preparing for some sort of consultation ... while occasionally I want to scream imprecations to the heavens, on the whole I whisper thanks that this motley crue of St Whosits in the 'Hood are gathering to cling to belief in an unseen God ...

    The coffee, on the other hand, is a source of great horror

    Out here tea stewed in urns is the devil's brew.

    Weak coffee is the cross we have to carry around here. I always make the coffee in my church, and it is usually strong enough to levitate a Lutheran. Complaints about it being too strong are greeted with the words "you can water it down."

    Sydney was middle-to-low until the 1970s then headed lower. Archbishop Moule back in the 40s and 50s, though an old China missionary himself, was content for the place to be moderate provided the theology was Biblically orthodox. Sydneygelicalism is a post-1975 thing if you ask me.
  • PDR wrote: »

    Sydney was middle-to-low until the 1970s then headed lower.

    But presumably even then they had that thing about chasubles.
  • Is Jensen still in power? If not, has the atmosphere changed?
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    angloid wrote: »
    PDR wrote: »

    Sydney was middle-to-low until the 1970s then headed lower.

    But presumably even then they had that thing about chasubles.

    I think that goes back to the 1920s.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Is Jensen still in power? If not, has the atmosphere changed?

    No. He retired a half dozen years ago to be succeeded by ++Glenn Davies. He is just as evangelical, but is more tolerant of others. That has not stopped his making one very unfortunate appointment.

    The ban on chasubles goes back to 1911 when the then Abp sad they were illegal based on the Lincoln decision. In the late 1940s that was confirmed by a diocesan ordinance.

    And PDR - it was Mowll, not Moule.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 15
    @Gee D - Thank you, I knew the spelling of Mowll was off. Not helped by the fact I have been tumbling across Moule of Durham quite a bit recently!
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    ... The ban on chasubles goes back to 1911 when the then Abp sad they were illegal based on the Lincoln decision. In the late 1940s that was confirmed by a diocesan ordinance. ...
    As I'm not Australian, I don't know anything about this. However, a church that took its impetus from the CofE as it was in the first quarter of the nineteenth century would never had had chasubles. So I'd suspect a ban in 1911 would have been on the lines of 'we've never had these and we don't want them now'.

    So, however much other people may love them, it's reasonable to deduce from this that as far as Sydney is concerned, local custom for over 200 years is 'no chasubles'. That's it, and like it or not, accept it. It's binding.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited September 15
    No, the 1911 ban was the ruling in the Bishop of Lincoln's case that they were illegal. Then there was an explicit ordinance 35 years later to ban them. And of course, those bans only applied in Sydney.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    So much so that the boundaries of the diocese used to be referred to in some quarters as "check point chasuble." Sadly though DioSydney has recently and cynically "purchased" neigbouring Diocese of Bathurst, so the checkpoints are now really only on the northern border with the Diocese of Newcastle.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    No, the 1911 ban was the ruling in the Bishop of Lincoln's case that they were illegal. Then there was an explicit ordinance 35 years later to ban them. And of course, those bans only applied in Sydney.

    Except that, as far as I can discover, the Lincoln Judgement did not pronounce on the legality of the chasuble. The two points decided against the Bishop of Lincoln were

    1. The use of the sign of the Cross in absolution and blessing; which is why newsreels of C of E bishops giving the blessing from the 1930s and 40s show crozier in the left hand, and right hand raised, but no sign of the cross.
    2. The mixing of the chalice during the service, though it did not actually rule against the mixed chalice provided it was mixed at some point before the service began. Dearmer has some suggestions on this as well.

    The Eastward position, lights on the altar, the ablutions, and the singing of the Agnus Dei were all pronounced legal, or rather, not contrary to the rubrics.

    I suspect that what the then Archbishop of Sydney did was simply decide that, as the Lincoln Judgement said nowt about it, the previous decisions of the Judicial Committee ("Wills, Wrecks, and Wives" Division) still applied.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    They were the actual issues in the Bishop of Lincoln's case, but the arguments used to reach that conclusion can also support a conclusion that chasubles were illegal.

    Zappa, yes, Sydney has bought Bathurst. Very sad, but most certainly not the fault of Bp Ian Palmer who took extraordinary steps - some at his personal cost - to cope with the effects of the judgment. The newly elected bishop is Rev Mark Calder, from Noosa of all places. Do you know him?
  • How can one Diocese buy another? As an ignorant Brit, I'm confused.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Bathurst is broke with a judgment against it for around $30m. It borrowed large sums to establish a couple of low fee private schools such as Sydney has built in outlying suburbs. The schools were built but the pupils were not there in the numbers needed to repay the loans. Some assets were protected by being held on particular trusts and so forth, but in theory the mortgagee could step in and sell churches, rectories and so forth. None of this was the fault of Bp Ian Palmer, whose election was well after the whole mess was underway. Indeed, he not only was not at fault, but at his own cost reduced the burden of his office on the diocese - he went part-time as bishop and the other part as rector of the parish of Dubbo. Indeed, he and his wife walked from Bathurst to Dubbo, about 200 km, to gain publicity for a fundraising appeal.

    Bp Ian retired at the beginning of this year. Last year, Bathurst asked Sydney for financial help and Synod agreed to give $250,000 pa but on the basis that ++Glenn vetted the candidates for election as the new bishop. That's what Zappa means by Sydney buying Bathurst.
  • Wow. I don't know what to think of all that. Is it generosity or political manipulation?
  • Both, perhaps - after all, the church (as a whole) could hardly stand by, and let buildings, and assets, be disposed of wholesale, let alone countenance the effect this would have on congregations.

    OTOH, it does also appear to give Sydney some control, though how far this might go is anybody's guess.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Both, perhaps - after all, the church (as a whole) could hardly stand by, and let buildings, and assets, be disposed of wholesale, let alone countenance the effect this would have on congregations.

    OTOH, it does also appear to give Sydney some control, though how far this might go is anybody's guess.

    Well, not just some control, but quite a bit. It has given Bathurst Rev Mark Calder as its new bishop. No reply yet from Zappa, but the new bishop's cv includes a stint at Roseville, a standard Moore College parish not all that far from here. Bathurst has traditionally been a high to catholic diocese and this election is a real change in direction. I don't know what other candidates were excluded by ++Glenn in his vetting process. Certainly much of the publicity about the election has come from Sydney rather than from Bathurst.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    My memory is that Gordon Cheng, sometime sailor on the Ship, was at some time also the rector at Roseville.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    They were the actual issues in the Bishop of Lincoln's case, but the arguments used to reach that conclusion can also support a conclusion that chasubles were illegal.

    You can actually argue it both ways, but having pronounced the Eastward position legal, which basically rests on the Ornaments Rubric/1549 BCP Rubrics, to then turn around and say the chasuble is illegal is inconsistent. Sounds like a case of the archbishop flying a logical kite and getting away with it. In my own diocese we have some folks who are quite passionate about maintaining choir habit and north end for Communion, and some of their reasoning can also be a - erm - bit interesting. They have the same sort of persistence as when the dog finds a toy that he has forgotten he has, and then won't play with any of the others for a while!
  • That's quite a polite way of putting it, @PDR...

    If, as it seems, the 1549 Ornaments Rubric is kosher, why make a fuss about one item? Has the church nothing more important to do?
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    There was the point that by 1855 the Ornaments Rubric had been a dead letter for 290 years, and the Ritualists were making a pain in the backside of themselves in reviving what no-one had thought of reviving before. However, as no-one had brought the Ornaments Rubric into conformity with the 1604 Canons then one cannot fault the Ritualists' logic no matter how much one might wish to. The error was somewhat compounded by Evangelicals trying to shut the door after the horse had bolted.
  • O quite. But it all seems so unimportant now, given the challenges the Church faces in today's world.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited September 16
    The diocese I am in is leans Low; and I say Low rather than Evangelical advisedly. We have one or two churches that use mass vestments; a few more that use them occasionally; but most of us go for surplice and stole or alb and stole just because that is what is convenient - especially if you are doing church-in-a-box. Much of the reason for this is we have a fair few churches which either do not have HC has the main service every week, or do not have HC every week.

    Around here the result of vestarian controversies becoming thankfully unimportant has been to bring everyone more towards the middle which I think has been a healthy development. The bishop tends to wear either cassock, rochet and stole for HC, and choir dress for everything else. The cope comes out for ordinations, Christmas, Easter, etc.; the bishop getting his mitre out is a rarity. He has been seen in chasuble and mitre, but that was truly unusual enough to be worthy of remark.
  • We had a Bishop to preach at our Family Service yesterday. Not only did She not wear cope or mitre, she did not robe at all. She wore a purple shirt and matching fleece type jacket. All very non threatening to the children who were there.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    O quite. But it all seems so unimportant now, given the challenges the Church faces in today's world.

    Yes, and we're trying to get on with things that really do matter. I'd be surprised if those such as Kolbe wore chasubles when saying Mass in prison.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    To put it another way, if you want a defence of the ban, go to someone who supports it.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I am enough on the Protestant side of the aisle that I would not mind being in a diocese that had a ban on chasubles provided it also had a ban on folks taking services in chinos and open neck shirts. My experience of the three extremes in Anglicanism has always been that supporters of the regime always get away with their irregularities, but those who lean the other way get picked up on everything.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    Both, perhaps - after all, the church (as a whole) could hardly stand by, and let buildings, and assets, be disposed of wholesale, let alone countenance the effect this would have on congregations.

    OTOH, it does also appear to give Sydney some control, though how far this might go is anybody's guess.

    Well, not just some control, but quite a bit. It has given Bathurst Rev Mark Calder as its new bishop. No reply yet from Zappa, but the new bishop's cv includes a stint at Roseville, a standard Moore College parish not all that far from here. Bathurst has traditionally been a high to catholic diocese and this election is a real change in direction. I don't know what other candidates were excluded by ++Glenn in his vetting process. Certainly much of the publicity about the election has come from Sydney rather than from Bathurst.


    Ooops - sorry for the silence ... somehow missed this altogether. But no ... I know very few clergy from beyond checkpoint chasuble, and both that I do are all would-be chasuble-ites.

    +Ian performed a fantastic rearguard action, against all odds. His predecessor, who as it happened presided at our nuptial Mass, is a friend of mine, was probably the main custodian of the financial losses; it was a sad and torrid time, a case I fear of diocesan personnel including if not exclusively him falling for the trap of believing they were important. I served under an earlier bishop still, + Bruce, who was one of the finest bishops I've served under, but who ended up embroiled in massive financial and legal battles, not least with the registrar of the time (coincidentally a Sydney evo).

    In a strange way I think a lot of the troubles go back to the Madness of King John - er, Bishop Howell Witt, who lost a plot that I suspect he never gained - or even further back to Bishop Wylde and the Red Book case.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    If +Richard is a friend of yours, better I say little about him. The idea behind the new schools was sound, and similar schools in Sydney and Canberra are carrying out the same function with few problems. The problem is that no-one gave any thought about how they could work where there were many fewer people and rather less money overall; nor about interim financing.

    Certainly elements of the Red Book case hanging around. The financial woes have given Sydney the opportunity to ensure there won't be a second edition. In any event, I'd place proper money on the courts now refusing to decide a similar case.
  • Zappa wrote: »
    In a strange way I think a lot of the troubles go back to the Madness of King John - er, Bishop Howell Witt, who lost a plot that I suspect he never gained - or even further back to Bishop Wylde and the Red Book case.

    I knew Howell Witt! Apart from having the loudest snore I have ever heard - audible through closed doors, brickwork, etc - he was also just ... odd. A cousin was despatched to collect him from a railway station, having never met him, with the masterly description he's shorter than short and very ugly and had no trouble picking him out of a throng of commuters.

    He used to entertain (if that is the word) with his own drag creation of Deborah, the Duchess of Dingo Creek and when put on television against an anti-church type and (I think) Germaine Greer caused chaos by first taking off his cassock to reveal short, black socks and shoes and purple stock (no shirt) but then, when asked to comment on something Ms Greer said responded by looping his pectoral cross over his ears and smiling without comment.

    But Howell was a nice man underneath the lunacy, and a good priest and pastor to his own clergy as well as laity.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Nice. Odd. Yup.
  • In my experience in two provinces of the Anglican Communion,* bishops are usually willing to adapt to the legitimate customary of parishes. How well they adapt is another question. Lower church American bishops tend to seem comically out of place in higher parishes. English bishops tend to do better. I don't know if that's because English dioceses are bigger (in terms of the number of parishes)** and more diverse in churchmanship or because English sacristans and MCs are more able to cajole bishops. As a welcome and gorgeous counterbalance to this, I submit this rather glorious video of a former bishop of Pennsylvania, who (despite his reputation, which was probably never entirely deserved, as an arch-liberal and fierce opponent of all conservative or "traditionalist" Episcopalians), seemed entirely at home as a celebrant of pontifical high mass according to the English Missal and Tridentine ceremonial.

    *TEC and Canterbury.
    ** In terms of geographical area, my current diocese is about the same size as the Church in Wales. But we have only about 7% as many parishes.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    @Columba_in_a_Currach - quite a few of us clergy know how to do things we would not usually do. For example, I know how to the American or the English Missal Mass (but wild horses could not drag me into doing so in my own parish), but I am probably slightly more celebrating 1662 at the north end. Both would be considerable steps away from my own habits.

    Most bishops likewise seem to fall into the adaptable camp, though I did run into one who was wasn't and did the full on Anglo-Catholic thing (minus incense) in a MOTR-Low parish and then abandoned the Rector to field the resulting shite storm as best he could. I made sure he never visited my parish by arranging to have our confirmation in July...
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Both, perhaps - after all, the church (as a whole) could hardly stand by, and let buildings, and assets, be disposed of wholesale, let alone countenance the effect this would have on congregations.

    OTOH, it does also appear to give Sydney some control, though how far this might go is anybody's guess.

    Well, not just some control, but quite a bit. It has given Bathurst Rev Mark Calder as its new bishop. No reply yet from Zappa, but the new bishop's cv includes a stint at Roseville, a standard Moore College parish not all that far from here. Bathurst has traditionally been a high to catholic diocese and this election is a real change in direction. I don't know what other candidates were excluded by ++Glenn in his vetting process. Certainly much of the publicity about the election has come from Sydney rather than from Bathurst.

    Rev Mark Calder’s background does not bode well for Bathurst. It is analogous to the appointment of Bishop Clive Kerle to Armidale in the late 1960’s. Armidale has never been the same since. The difference is that Bathurst has historically been uniformly high church in varying degrees. He may be like a stranger at his own party initially but there put his own stamp on the diocese as time goes on.
  • It is important to remember just how quickly the "temperature" of a parish or diocese can change. Today the (Anglican) Diocese of NW Australia is noted for being rabidly evangelical - but when Howell Witt was there it was definitely on the high side and his successor, Ged Muston, didn't change things significantly, notwithstanding his links to CMS and coming from Moore.
  • sydneyhighsydneyhigh Shipmate
    edited October 1
    PDR wrote: »
    @Columba_in_a_Currach - quite a few of us clergy know how to do things we would not usually do. For example, I know how to the American or the English Missal Mass (but wild horses could not drag me into doing so in my own parish), but I am probably slightly more celebrating 1662 at the north end. Both would be considerable steps away from my own habits.

    Most bishops likewise seem to fall into the adaptable camp, though I did run into one who was wasn't and did the full on Anglo-Catholic thing (minus incense) in a MOTR-Low parish and then abandoned the Rector to field the resulting shite storm as best he could. I made sure he never visited my parish by arranging to have our confirmation in July...

    Ah the English Missal Mass. Those were the great days. My formative church going years was with the English Missal services and I have ever been able to get the experience out of my system. I was in London mid year and went to High Mass at St Magnus the Martyr on the feast of Corpus Christi with the English Missal rite. Wonderful! Also I attended (for the second year in a row) High Mass in the traditional Tridentine rite in Latin at St Silas Kentish Town for the feast of the Sacred Heart. An experience like no other.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    sydneyhigh wrote: »
    Rev Mark Calder’s background does not bode well for Bathurst. It is analogous to the appointment of Bishop Clive Kerle to Armidale in the late 1960’s. Armidale has never been the same since. The difference is that Bathurst has historically been uniformly high church in varying degrees. He may be like a stranger at his own party initially but there put his own stamp on the diocese as time goes on.

    Indeed - Armidale was until then a good traditional Anglican diocese, a range of churchmanship but predominantly MOTR to high. At the moment, there's a church in each of Armidale and Tamworth that you'd want to go to, but that's all. These days +John Moyes, Kerle's predecessor, was a real thorn in the side of Menzies. Much to Menzie's surprise +John opposed banning the Communist Party, Oz involvement in Vietnam and a host of social issues. His brother Johnny was perhaps the greatest radio cricket commentator of all. His descriptions of the seagulls at the Randwick end of the SCG have never been bettered.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    sydneyhigh wrote: »
    Rev Mark Calder’s background does not bode well for Bathurst. It is analogous to the appointment of Bishop Clive Kerle to Armidale in the late 1960’s. Armidale has never been the same since. The difference is that Bathurst has historically been uniformly high church in varying degrees. He may be like a stranger at his own party initially but there put his own stamp on the diocese as time goes on.

    Indeed - Armidale was until then a good traditional Anglican diocese, a range of churchmanship but predominantly MOTR to high. At the moment, there's a church in each of Armidale and Tamworth that you'd want to go to, but that's all. These days +John Moyes, Kerle's predecessor, was a real thorn in the side of Menzies. Much to Menzie's surprise +John opposed banning the Communist Party, Oz involvement in Vietnam and a host of social issues. His brother Johnny was perhaps the greatest radio cricket commentator of all. His descriptions of the seagulls at the Randwick end of the SCG have never been bettered.

    I recall John Moyse and his opposition to the Vietnam war and conscription. He was made Bishop of Armidale at a comparatively young age and was there for many years and from what I was told was disappointed at being overlooked for more senior posts. He was a classic broad churchman and sympathetic to all branches of Anglicanism. He made the regrettable decision of sending a disproportionate number of his ordinands to Moore College who on his retirement had the numbers to replace him with a hardliner like Kerle.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    He did not get an ++ because his politics were far too liberal for those days.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited October 1
    sydneyhigh wrote: »
    PDR wrote: »
    @Columba_in_a_Currach - quite a few of us clergy know how to do things we would not usually do. For example, I know how to celebrate the American or the English Missal Mass (but wild horses could not drag me into doing so in my own parish), but I am probably slightly more convincing celebrating 1662 at the north end. Both would be considerable steps away from my own habits.

    Most bishops likewise seem to fall into the adaptable camp, though I did run into one who was wasn't and did the full on Anglo-Catholic thing (minus incense) in a MOTR-Low parish and then abandoned the Rector to field the resulting shite storm as best he could. I made sure he never visited my parish by arranging to have our confirmation in July...

    Ah the English Missal Mass. Those were the great days. My formative church going years was with the English Missal services and I have ever been able to get the experience out of my system. I was in London mid year and went to High Mass at St Magnus the Martyr on the feast of Corpus Christi with the English Missal rite. Wonderful! Also I attended (for the second year in a row) High Mass in the traditional Tridentine rite in Latin at St Silas Kentish Town for the feast of the Sacred Heart. An experience like no other.

    Sorry about the missing words in my post above, which I have now corrected in the quoted version. I am in the aftermath of a migraine so my head is doing all sorts of weird stuff - including, apparently, not noticing when I leave random words out of sentences!

    When I was in my teens we had one parish locally which was English Missal, and I would go there from time-to-time for a change of pace/weekday solemnities. On the whole, it came across as a blend of raging Tridentine and BCP as what you heard was largely BCP, though the order was a bit different even from the Series One (BCP "High Churched") order we used at home. In a strange way I got rather fond of it. I ended up learning the thing in a hurry when I was first priested as one of the parishes I covered still used it. Even in the mid-1990s the incumbent could not get them on to the new rite.

    The American Missal was something I got the hang of in my previous gig as they did it on weekdays for old time's sake, and were rather delighted when they discovered I would have a go. It was one of those parishes that had been banged about in churchmanship. The original incumbent had been Low, and successive Rectors had gradually crept it up the candle to MOTR leaning High, but then the resident lay pope decided that the parish was perfect for a priest buddy of his who was a raging Anglo-Catholic. The result was chaos as the A-C rector created an exodus, but also won a small but devoted following to his way of doing things. I was left with trying to get the various groups working together again, and I had a head start on that project as the interim rector that preceded me had done a pretty good job of getting the various parties talking to one another again. In the end I stayed too long, and was glad, when I finally found somewhere suitable, to move on, but my longevity had at least resolved a lot of the old parish angst over churchmanship.
  • In my experience in two provinces of the Anglican Communion,* bishops are usually willing to adapt to the legitimate customary of parishes. How well they adapt is another question. Lower church American bishops tend to seem comically out of place in higher parishes. English bishops tend to do better. I don't know if that's because English dioceses are bigger (in terms of the number of parishes)** and more diverse in churchmanship or because English sacristans and MCs are more able to cajole bishops. As a welcome and gorgeous counterbalance to this, I submit this rather glorious video of a former bishop of Pennsylvania, who (despite his reputation, which was probably never entirely deserved, as an arch-liberal and fierce opponent of all conservative or "traditionalist" Episcopalians), seemed entirely at home as a celebrant of pontifical high mass according to the English Missal and Tridentine ceremonial.

    *TEC and Canterbury.
    ** In terms of geographical area, my current diocese is about the same size as the Church in Wales. But we have only about 7% as many parishes.

    That delightfully attired fellow is not Charles Bennison, but rather the then Bishop of Quincy, the Right Reverend Keith Ackerman... someone who definitely is comfortable in the world of traditional Anglo Catholicism, and very large mitres.

  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    He did not get an ++ because his politics were far too liberal for those days.

    Was he contemporary with Burgmann?
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