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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re Gramps' Guardian link:

    Dear God. :rage:

    I think Trump's actions on this are worthy of some kind of "wrongful death" charge for two reasons: 1) if shut-down states are "liberated" now, there will be more viral spread, and some people will die; and 2) he's encouraging people who are carting around automatic weapons--and one possible target is Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, who he doesn't like.

    Pence was interviewed on the PBS Newshour today. (04/17/20, starts around 7:23 and runs about 12 min.) I'm not sure whether he's clueless, utterly deluded, mindlessly sticking to campaign talking points...or flat-out lying. IMHO, Judy Woodruff did a mighty interviewing job, confronting him about the administration's delayed handling (which he deflected onto WHO); quoting from an ICU nurse in New York who told about having so few gowns that nurses had to pass them on to the next nurses at the end of their shifts (who P thanked very well, then said several times that the US health system isn't overwhelmed), etc.

    I haven't yet found a transcript (probably too soon). But there is closed captioning.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Sorry about the wrong word Is it sedition or treason?

    Thank you for reading the linked story, Golden Key.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    He doesn't care how many people die. This is naked politicising at the time of a deadly epidemic. It's grossly irresponsible behaviour,
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    A NY friend of T died of COVID-19 a few days ago. (T had previously mentioned him anonymously as being in a coma from it.) I wonder if that's gotten through T's muddled mind as being something to be prevented?
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Demonstrations against stay-at-home orders, which have drawn elements of the far right, have been held in Michigan, Ohio, North Carolina and Virginia. Some protesters have carried guns, waved Trump and confederate flags, and framed the protest as a defence of constitutional freedoms.

    tRump said that protestors who gathered in groups “seem to be very responsible people”.

    Freedom to die a horrible, lonely death and have their relatives do the same, I presume?

    Does ‘responsible’ now mean ‘tRump supporter’?

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Well, at the Charlottesville protest/incident a couple years back, T said there were "nice" or "good" people on both sides...
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    He's done many foul things but inciting protests and civil disorder against the governors is pretty close to worst. He's flexing his muscles, saying to the governors that unless they move quickly to open up the economy he will set his trump-loyal storm troopers on them.

    It's not quite inciting Civil War but it's moving into that territory.
  • Presumably, he thinks he can rely on 40% of the vote, even if he does something criminal. That more people may die, with a poorly executed lockdown, probably not important to him.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re the "protestors":

    And it gets worse.

    "COVID-19 Protesters Just Like 'Rosa Parks,' Says White House Adviser Stephen Moore" (HuffPost via Yahoo).


    I'd forgotten all about this bozo. Oh, and there's a link to a Mother Jones article explaining connections between the Michigan protestors and Betsy DeVos, Education Secretary. (Nothing I saw connects her *directly*, though. I.e., I saw nothing that said she talked them into it.)
  • What a massive arse that bloke must be, to use Rosa Parks' name like that. Despicable.
    Presumably, he thinks he can rely on 40% of the vote, even if he does something criminal. That more people may die, with a poorly executed lockdown, probably not important to him.

    I actually think the election in November is what's motivating his decision making.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Funny to see these guys waving Confederate flags while demanding that their own states submit to Washington's control. At least the people who brandished it against federally mandated integration understood what level of government it's supposed to represent.

  • So Trump is articulating the views of the libertarian alt-right, sometimes called a death cult, as they prefer the deaths of 1000s of people, as long as their rights are not infringed?
  • I've asked this before, but is there really NO WAY this demented apology for a 'president' can be removed from office immediately?

    What about Article 25?

    I know you'd end up with Pence, but surely even he would be less likely to incite possible rebellion, murder, and civil unrest - which is what it's looking like from this side of the Pond.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I've asked this before, but is there really NO WAY this demented apology for a 'president' can be removed from office immediately?

    What about Article 25?

    I know you'd end up with Pence, but surely even he would be less likely to incite possible rebellion, murder, and civil unrest - which is what it's looking like from this side of the Pond.

    Assuming that Trump is actually the primary cause of this rebellion(and don't underestimate the American capacity for grassroots-driven wackadoodle individualism), by this point, were he to be removed, it might not make much of a difference, since his fans would regard it as an illegitimate coup, possibly even declaring Pence a RINO, and the Donald would still be able to incite the faithful via his tweets.
  • Well, yes - ISWYM. Though deleting Trump's Twitter account would be an act of kindness to the world in general...

    (What's a RINO, please?)
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Yes. There is a big cult out there now.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate

    (What's a RINO, please?)

    Republican In Name Only. A derogatory term for Republicans regarded as too liberal.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Pence too liberal? He doesn't even accept the scientific theory of evolution.

    Frankly, I am at the point where if these Neo-Nazis want to appear at state capitals armed the governors should call out the National Guard and start making arrests. They may have the right of peaceful assembly; but, in my mind, they cross the line when they bring their guns to their protests.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    But wouldn't that infringe their God-given right to bear arms?

    Heaven forbid that it should come to shooting, though, despite what the mad president might be prepared to accept in return for votes...
    :cold_sweat:
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Dudes: with all respect, we 'Mukans were mowing one another down with guns daily in sizable numbers long before the current unpleasantness ensued.
  • Yes, but it's just the mere thought of your mad president seeming to almost encourage such ghastly behaviour (or potential behaviour) that sticks in the craw.

    IYSWIM.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    I've asked this before, but is there really NO WAY this demented apology for a 'president' can be removed from office immediately?

    What about Article 25?

    Several problems there. The Twenty-Fifth Amendment (there is no "Article 25" in the U.S. Constitution) only applies in cases where "the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office". Situations like the President being in persistent coma, or insane, or suffering dementia. It doesn't cover arguably seditious or treasonous behavior. The remedy for that is supposed to be impeachment and removal, and that was already tried.

    The second problem is that the Twenty-Fifth Amendment has to be invoked by "the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments [i.e. the Cabinet] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide". The chances of Pence and a majority of Trump's cabinet declaring him incompetent is vanishingly small. If nothing Trump has done so far has convinced them "this guy is nuts", I doubt a few intemperate tweets are going to do it.

    The third problem is that the president can appeal the imposition of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment, transmitting to Congress that he's not really [ comatose / insane / whatever ] and Congress then gets to decide the matter. Unless Congress "determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" Trump would resume the presidency*. Again, we've already had that vote in the Senate and if two-thirds of the Senate weren't willing to remove Trump for undermining American democracy I doubt two-thirds of them would do so over a couple of tweets.
  • When several hundred Second Amendment activists showed up to my state capitol with semi-automatic rifles in January, they were politely waved through the metal detectors and welcomed into the building by the security guards.

    A number of public schoolteachers pointed out that when they came to protest the state employee pension cuts at the capitol building the previous year, they were subjected to multiple searches and ordered to leave their umbrellas and protest signs outside.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Pence too liberal? He doesn't even accept the scientific theory of evolution.

    Yeah, but if you're someone for whom Trump is the be-all-and-end-all, and he gets tossed in favour of Pence, and you think(justifiably or otherwise) that Pence had something to do with it, then Pence might as well be Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as far as you are concerned.

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I've asked this before, but is there really NO WAY this demented apology for a 'president' can be removed from office immediately?

    What about Article 25?

    Several problems there. The Twenty-Fifth Amendment (there is no "Article 25" in the U.S. Constitution) only applies in cases where "the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office". Situations like the President being in persistent coma, or insane, or suffering dementia. It doesn't cover arguably seditious or treasonous behavior. The remedy for that is supposed to be impeachment and removal, and that was already tried.

    The second problem is that the Twenty-Fifth Amendment has to be invoked by "the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments [i.e. the Cabinet] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide". The chances of Pence and a majority of Trump's cabinet declaring him incompetent is vanishingly small. If nothing Trump has done so far has convinced them "this guy is nuts", I doubt a few intemperate tweets are going to do it.

    The third problem is that the president can appeal the imposition of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment, transmitting to Congress that he's not really [ comatose / insane / whatever ] and Congress then gets to decide the matter. Unless Congress "determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" Trump would resume the presidency*. Again, we've already had that vote in the Senate and if two-thirds of the Senate weren't willing to remove Trump for undermining American democracy I doubt two-thirds of them would do so over a couple of tweets.

    Understood (sorry about misquoting 'Article' - I meant 'Amendment')

    Thx.

    Kyrie eleison, nevertheless...

  • I saw a bit on an American station (Detroit, I think) in which a woman-on-the-street wanted to open the general retail economy because she had "to make a living". I get that (being in a similarly strapped situation), but she obviously didn't get the irony of not being alive to make a living, and that a Covid death is not a gentle passage. Somehow the money:death ratio just doesn't compute for some people.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    stetson wrote: »
    Funny to see these guys waving Confederate flags while demanding that their own states submit to Washington's control.

    Has the Confederate flag become a general symbol of grass roots libertarianism now, rather than having any historical content?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Maybe both? or at least of rebellion.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    I'm no expert, being Yankee born and bred, but I suspect the flag in question now symbolizes something approximating, "I'm a GD Murkan Citizen of the greatest GD nation on this here planet Earth and ain't nobody gonna tell ME what Ah can an' cannot do, so youse kin take yer GD rools & 'strictions & shove 'em up yer backside!"
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Just another illustration of cult confusion.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Ohher--

    Yes, IMHO.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Has the Confederate flag become a general symbol of grass roots libertarianism now, rather than having any historical content?

    The Treason Flag is associated with white supremacy. To the extent white supremacy masquerades as "grass roots libertarianism", the answer is yes.
    Ohher wrote: »
    I'm no expert, being Yankee born and bred, but I suspect the flag in question now symbolizes something approximating, "I'm a GD Murkan Citizen of the greatest GD nation on this here planet Earth and ain't nobody gonna tell ME what Ah can an' cannot do, so youse kin take yer GD rools & 'strictions & shove 'em up yer backside!"

    It always irritates me the way the Treason Flag isn't more widely recognized as an emblem established to destroy America. It's first incarnation was for use by the Confederate military, which made war on America and inflicted more military deaths on the nation than any other conflict in it's history. After its use to represent Treason in Defense of Slavery, it had a second career during the civil rights era as the banner of Terrorism in Support of Apartheid. To see it popping up in place like Michigan . . . Henry Morrow must be spinning in his grave.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I am wondering why people who claim to be of the party of Lincoln can use the battle flag of the people that fought against him.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Ohher-

    Yes, IMHO.

    I'd roughly concur as well, though I will also say that up until now, when it was displayed in defense of a particular political cause, it was always on the side that was backed by the state against the feds.

    IOW it was more a symbol of decentralization than of libertarianism.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I am wondering why people who claim to be of the party of Lincoln can use the battle flag of the people that fought against him.

    A follow up to this: I have a friend that proudly wears the battle flag of the confederacy. His reply was he idealizes the antebellum Southern Aristocracy. I pointed out that less than 10% of the South was aristocratic and that system was based on slavery. I asked if he really favored slavery. He has yet to get back with that, but if he does I will unfriend him in a heartbeat.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    What astonishes me is how the "states' rights" issue (dressed up in the guise of patriotism) somehow seems to have eclipsed human rights in this mindset -- as though kidnapping, forced labor, imprisonment, loss of human rights, freedom of movement and association, self-determination, personal history, right of association, and on and on -- were mere interesting sidebars to "states' rights." The right (?!) to actually own -- and direct and control and even abuse -- another human bring? And this somehow gets overlooked and swept out of the way like so much insignificant trivia?

    It boggles the mind.
  • Flagrant and conscious white supremacy is the answer isn't it? Only whites have rights, because only whites are truly human. The others are, at best, the others.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    What astonishes me is how the "states' rights" issue (dressed up in the guise of patriotism) somehow seems to have eclipsed human rights in this mindset -- as though kidnapping, forced labor, imprisonment, loss of human rights, freedom of movement and association, self-determination, personal history, right of association, and on and on -- were mere interesting sidebars to "states' rights." The right (?!) to actually own -- and direct and control and even abuse -- another human bring? And this somehow gets overlooked and swept out of the way like so much insignificant trivia?

    It boggles the mind.

    I believe the usual line of apologia is to say that the CSA wasn' t really fighting for slavery, it was all a tariff war or something, and that if the south had won they would have abolished it in short order.

    I'll also read into the record that that whitewashed view of the south also had a following in the UK, among those seeking to rationalize Her Majesty's Government playing footsie with the CSA. Karl Marx actually wrote a lot of interesting journalism about the politics of the Civil War in both countries.
  • I was reading a little about the ending of several of the French republics. Informative as to how things collapse in non-spectacular ways. They just sort of ooze. People get unhappy with their prospects as a precursor, then their immediate needs aren't met. If America can feed and fund its populace, there'll be nothing revolutionary. Even if the people are unhappy about the future.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    A good tangent. Looks like it might be worth a separate thread. I'll review in a few hours and if necessary use the split thread technique.

    Barnabas62
    Purgatory Host
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Simon Toad--
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Flagrant and conscious white supremacy is the answer isn't it? Only whites have rights, because only whites are truly human. The others are, at best, the others.

    Though I think there's sometimes more to it, and it isn't always conscious. If the culture says all of the above, a person may simply soak it up, not think about it, and just see it as normal.

    Plus people often feel better about themselves (for a while, at least) if they put someone else down. Plus, as we've discussed in the past, there have been some real disadvantages for white men, in rural places especially, who might have had a decent income from a factory in times past, but the factories closed and the jobs were outsourced. Some of them see people of minority groups (who they assume to be) getting welfare, or (presumed to be) benefiting from Affirmative Action programs and quotas. They may not see--or have--any options, any ways to better their situations. Sometimes, there are retraining programs available (e.g., through community colleges), and sometimes not.

    *I am not--in any way, shape, or form--condoning racist behavior.* But ignoring some of the reasons for the anger is counter-productive. If someone's feelings and behavior are rooted in actual problems outside their control, simply labeling them as racists isn't going to fix anything--and, in righteous anger, they'll fight back every step of the way, until things actually start getting better for them.

    FWIW, YMMV.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited April 2020
    MM does indeed V

    Your meaning for ‘righteous anger’ is not what I see it as @Golden Key.

    People can be/have been/are in terrible, dire, impossible circumstances and still react with human kindness, recognising that all humans should be treated as equals. Their anger helps them to work to make things better - for everyone.

    I worked in Uganda in the 1990s. The people I met were far, far, far poorer and worse off than the demonstrators. They showed nothing but welcoming love and giving spirits.

    My husband runs a charity in Mexico. The people are truly poor - but they give weekly to a village of native people poorer than them.

  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    CSA?

    Google gives me Child Support Agency, which doesn't seem particularly helpful.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Scapegoating and pecking order behaviour are I think as old as people living in social groups. The development of moral codes has operated as both a criticism and control over the worst aspects of both.

    From that point of view, the Trump Presidency has been reactionary, atavistic. And that seems to flow directly from the peculiarities of his personality.

    His attractiveness to his loyal cult members seems to me to rest on his continuing appeal to people's baser instincts re scapegoating and pecking orders. If you appeal to one set of base instincts,don't be surprised if others rise up out of the darker aspects of human nature. It is like letting a genie out of the bottle.
  • I understand where you are coming from GK. Racism is often unconscious, often imbued from the surrounding culture. I know Australian racism very well. I was schooled in it. It is very like American white supremacy, which is no surprise because it all stems back to in America's case european-wide white supremacy, and in Australia's case British racism.

    We British racists don't trust the bloody Dutch, let alone the Irish, which puts people of my mixed ethnicity in an invidious self-hating position. You usually avoid that by taking on an identity, and in Australia that was mainly determined by your brand of Christianity.

    I have very little sympathy for those poor white racists who are themselves the authors of their own misfortune. If they don't vote, or they vote GOP, their economic situation is partly their fault. Poor people are not dumb. Poor people have the capacity for determining what is and isn't in their interests. Too many poor white racists perceive their interests in racist ways.

    Racism was indeed the filter through which most white people saw themselves and others since the Age of Exploration. Its no surprise that it rears up in our countries often. But that, or your poverty, or your lack of opportunities, or a good education are not good enough excuses in my book.
  • CSA?

    Google gives me Child Support Agency, which doesn't seem particularly helpful.

    Confederate States of America, I would imagine. I've never seen it abbreviated that way. We generally simply refer to it as the Confederacy.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    CSA = Confederate States of America, I assume.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Many thanks.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Yes, that is what I meant. And for the record, the wikipedia article about that particular entity goes by exactly that name, and lists "CSA" as an abbreviation.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    It's not quite inciting Civil War but it's moving into that territory.

    I disagree. I think we're already in that territory. The President of the United States (who frankly doesn't have a f**king clue what a federation is) is trying to disrupt the governance of several of the States.

    And it's not an exaggeration to say that people are going to die because of it. Whether because of virus spread or otherwise.

    I live in a federal country myself, and the contrast between what's happening in the USA and here in Australia couldn't be more stark. There have been 1 or 2 scuffles here admittedly, but there's a national cabinet of all 9 governments and on most matters they're making collective decisions. And in terms of the rate of infections, it's working.

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