Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • I took a job-placement test today, and (despite being in Canada) there were a lot of USA-specific taxation and payroll questions. If I wasn't sure, I just picked the option that was worst for the employee.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited February 15
    I'd laugh, but it may be true.

    Heard on the news Tr*mp may be calling an emergency over the wall. Not April 1 over there, is it?
  • Climacus wrote: »
    I'd laugh, but it may be true.

    Heard on the news Tr*mp may be calling an emergency over the wall. Not April 1 over there, is it?

    I think it's been April 1 here for over two years.
    :rage:
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited February 15
    I was thinking of listing all the things that could be national emergencies, but funding for public (ie state) schools in all our countries has now shot to the top of the list, for right now at least. If this gets up it will amount to a massive centralisation of power, surely something that republicans have been fighting against for generations.

    Apart from guns, I really would like a future Democratic President to use the power to establish a Federal commission in charge of organising and running elections, including boundaries and registration issues, taking control out of the hands of the states. They can use the Mueller Report to justify it.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Climacus wrote: »
    ... Heard on the news Tr*mp may be calling an emergency over the wall ...
    According to this, you're right.

    What a total plank.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    All in all, a dreadful decision.

    The constitutional consequences of continuing GOP rubber stamp support for Trump may lead to the Supreme Court re separation of powers. Trump's vanity and tendency to double down even when it isn't in his best interests may lead to his undoing,

    Petsonally I don't care if that happens in the courts or the ballot box or both. The man is a serious menace to democracy.

  • FYI: T has been threatening for this for some time. Don't know if he'd actually do it, but it's not an early April Fool's Day.
  • Indeed, I recall him threatening it. I assumed it was bluster. I never thought it would happen.

    Much like the author in the first article Barnabas linked to:
    I used to laugh when my more progressive friends warned me that Trump wanted to turn America into a third-world banana republic. He’d never pull that off, I’d tell them. The Constitution will stop him. Members of Congress will stop him. The GOP will stop him. Now, I’m the one who is the fool

    I indeed feel like a moron.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Narcissists have no boundaries. They don’t, ever, feel shame. Things are always someone else’s fault.

    tRump is also mind blowingly stupid. As someone said of him the other day “God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.”

    So a Nixon-style resignation isn’t going to happen, however watertight the evidence.

    The GOP will be dragged much, much lower before anything changes. Maybe that could be a good thing in the long term?
  • I still have a little hope that T might decide this is wrecking his business empire, quit, and go back to it. There was fairly recent news that he thinks the presidency "is a loser", financially, because he can't take care of his business dealings.

    As long as the method is both legal and non-violent, I don't particularly care how or why he goes. But he's got to go.
  • Boogie he might resign to save Ivanka. I stress might.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Narcissists have no boundaries. They don’t, ever, feel shame. Things are always someone else’s fault.

    tRump is also mind blowingly stupid. As someone said of him the other day “God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.”

    So a Nixon-style resignation isn’t going to happen, however watertight the evidence.

    The GOP will be dragged much, much lower before anything changes. Maybe that could be a good thing in the long term?

    I think that's very black and white. Some narcissistic people may ward off shame, partly by getting you to feel it. And blaming others is the classic defence against self-blame. I'm not saying these things are true of Trump, I've never met him. Usually, with blowhards, an hour spent sitting in a room with them will reveal a huge amount about their unconscious stuff, but who's going to do that with Trump?
  • Trump is the classic authoritarian. I'd love to provide a link, but most mention Trump as an example, and I'd like to find one that stated all the characteristics (a dozen or so, IIRC) so people could think for themselves.

    I believe the authoritarian personality starts with potty training problems. Is there a psychoanalyst/psychiatrist in the house?
  • "Without an understanding of the shame emotion, narcissism does seem an puzzling collection of unseemly traits." Mark Zaslav, "Narcissism: the Shame Negating Personality".
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Trump is the classic authoritarian. I'd love to provide a link, but most mention Trump oas an example, and I'd like to find one that stated all the charaerter. cteristics (a dozen or so, IIRC) so people could think for themselves.

    I believe the authoritarian personality starts with potty training problems. Is there a psychoanalyst/psychiatrist in the house?

    Psychoanalytic psychotherapist here. An example that stuck in my mind was Trump mocking a disabled reporter. This is classic behaviour of someone with deep shame, projected. In fact, arguably, some narcissists are driven by shame. I used to work with blowhards, and sitting in a room with them, you see the uneasiness and shiftiness, as their own stuff starts to surface, and the external pomposity starts to flake. But you can't diagnose at a distance.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited February 15
    That’s interesting @quetzalcoatl

    So it’s possible that he does feel shame but, to remove it from himself, projects it on to others.

    But how is this, in reality, any different from not feeling it at all?
  • Boogie wrote: »
    That’s interesting @quetzalcoatl

    So it’s possible that he does feel shame but, to remove it from himself, projects it on to others.

    But how is this, in reality, any different from not feeling it at all?

    The unconscious. Many people have repressed their shame, but it still smoulders away, and has to be kept quiet by shaming others. But this happens with many feelings, e.g., guilt. Hence, "shame-negating" in the above book title. You anaesthetize your own stuff, by inflicting it on others, it's in the Bible.
  • And so Trump is going to declare a National Emergency to get his wall built. Let the fireworks begin.

  • I don't think the courts, even the Supreme Court with its current composition, is going to let this excuse for declaring a National Emergency stand. But it's going to be a precedent, continuing a trend that goes before Trump to Obama, Bush, perhaps earlier, of Presidents trying to use Executive power (as a rule) to usurp a prerogative of Congress when they are unable to get their legislative agenda passed. Candidates for President now campaign based on the Executive Actions that they say they will take when Congress won't pass the laws they want. It's a scary trend, but one that many voters feel is necessary because Congress simply will not get its act together to keep the government consistently funded and properly functioning and to address ongoing threats to our economy, healthcare, educational system, infrastructure, and democracy.

    Trump probably knows that the courts won't let him do this. He's going to try anyway to satisfy his base and help him use the courts again as a scapegoat.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    And so Trump is going to declare a National Emergency to get his wall built. Let the fireworks begin.

    Is this an indication that the Infantile Orange Tyrant has finally gone mad?
    :confounded:

    Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram.....

    WAAGH!!! I WANT MY WALL!!! I WANT IT NOW NOW NOW!!!

    A tragi-comedy of almost Greek proportions...

  • I think it's more intelligent than that - for a certain value of intelligence.

    Trump knows Congress is never going to give him the money. Shutting down the government didn't go so well last time. This way he's still not going to get his wall, but he'll be able to blame the courts and thus go back to his base saying that the absence of a big beautiful wall is not his fault.

    It's about the only way to dig himself out of the hole he's got into over this.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    But it's going to be a precedent, continuing a trend that goes before Trump to Obama, Bush, perhaps earlier, of Presidents trying to use Executive power (as a rule) to usurp a prerogative of Congress when they are unable to get their legislative agenda passed.

    This is different. It's on a whole 'nother level. Instead of directing executive branch agencies on how to enforce various laws as past executive orders have, this is directly usurping a core Congressional prerogative - the power of the purse. And if Congress doesn't have the power of the purse, it has no power at all.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I found the article in B62's link very scary, especially the bit about the possibility of him postponing or cancelling the 2020 election (please don't give him any ideas!).

    Remember how impressed he was when the Chinese president declared himself to be president for life? I know Trump tried to disguise it as a joke, but still ...

    As to the Supreme Court overturning the emergency power, with the bozos and yes-men he's put in (Brett Kavanagh I'm looking at you) I wouldn't put money on it.

    What a pity there's only one of Mrs. Bader-Ginsburg.
  • But the Notorious RBG is, at least, back at work now! :)
  • And an entire nation has experienced revival as we all drop to our knees in unison, pleading the Divine for her continued health and well being
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Indeed, and I only live next door to your nation.
  • I think it's more intelligent than that - for a certain value of intelligence.

    Trump knows Congress is never going to give him the money. Shutting down the government didn't go so well last time. This way he's still not going to get his wall, but he'll be able to blame the courts and thus go back to his base saying that the absence of a big beautiful wall is not his fault.

    It's about the only way to dig himself out of the hole he's got into over this.
    As I predicted back on January 8. I hate to ever agree with whacko Ann Coulter, but as she says the only "national emergency" is that our president is an idiot.
  • edited February 16
    Narcissism, moral defectiveness, and intelligence are correlated, but the association is not strong. trumpy is morally defective and narcissistic just because these define his personality and conduct. But he is actually intelligent. And actually very good at reading other people, and manipulating everything and everyone.

    Otherwise how do you explain his schtick. All of this - the manner in which he got elected, appealed to the xenophobia and promise of salvation which got him the nomination before that, the ability to explain away things like putting your penis in the wrong person while at the same time denying it, grabbing other people's genitalia, garnering the support of 'christian' people who excuse all his misconduct because he flipflopped his way to be being an anti-abortion crusader, rallying people with obvious lynch mob sloganeering, twittering away falsehoods and fakery, and continuing to have people who are actually educated explain his ideals and nonsense as if they belief it. The guy's actually a genius. No moral compass and no real caring except perhaps for his family (he did admit to wanting to hump his daughter, which I guess is love of a sort for family). The dude took control of the most powerful nation and empire the earth has ever known. And he still has supporters. Sure, he may be hung from his heels from a lamppost one day, but right now he's the king of all he can see.

    I don't actually think it matters if he does unconstitutional things, is found guilty of something. He's not going anywhere without a kerfuffle and I think that kerfuffle would need to be violent. Riots and dying. But that probably won't happen. It'd be nice if it didn't happen.

    I think trumpy's just a continuation post-cold war, of what the USA was doing in the 19th century and after it took over the UK's exploitation of the world post-WW1 , cf, America's empire. trumpy is just the latest of the defective and morally reprehensible people running the show both within one country and as the most powerful nation, screwing over the brown people and the world in general. Lying and being a complete dick is not reprehensible if you think America is needs to be made great again, specialer than everywhere else. trumpy reflects what and where he was born into.
  • I think it's more intelligent than that - for a certain value of intelligence.

    Trump knows Congress is never going to give him the money. Shutting down the government didn't go so well last time. This way he's still not going to get his wall, but he'll be able to blame the courts and thus go back to his base saying that the absence of a big beautiful wall is not his fault.

    It's about the only way to dig himself out of the hole he's got into over this.

    I'm not sure Anne Coultard is going to let him get away with that. She's already calling out betrayal.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    I found the article in B62's link very scary, especially the bit about the possibility of him postponing or cancelling the 2020 election (please don't give him any ideas!).

    Remember how impressed he was when the Chinese president declared himself to be president for life? I know Trump tried to disguise it as a joke, but still ...

    As to the Supreme Court overturning the emergency power, with the bozos and yes-men he's put in (Brett Kavanagh I'm looking at you) I wouldn't put money on it.

    What a pity there's only one of Mrs. Bader-Ginsburg.

    Don't give up on the Conservative jurists until you have to. They may change abortion law, but my understanding is that they all love the Constitution.
  • I would love to see Ann Coulter rip into T, in person, in public--from about 10 feet away, to protect her from roving hands. I'm not a fan, but this would be a good place on which to focus her anger and whatnot, and use it for good.
  • I think Coultard is a racing car driver :tongue:
  • Cold heart?
  • Cripes knows where this should go. Congress Presidency Shutdown II? I'm buggered if I know. Anyway, here's an interesting perspective on the use of Emergency Powers by the executive. In short, the guy argues that Trump's declaration is perfectly legal and straightforward, but for the way in which Trump announced it, which exposed the Procedure's previously unspoken nakedness and renders Trump's use of it open to be struck down.
  • Machiavelli is alive and well, and obviously active in Usania....
    :fearful:
  • I'm going to a protest of the state of emergency declaration today.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    But the Notorious RBG is, at least, back at work now! :)

    Nor according to fascist former White House advisor Sebastian Gorka. He and others are promoting the conspiracy theory that Ginsburg is actually dead and that a conspiracy exists to cover up that fact.
    On Friday, NBC News reporter Ben Collins wrote that "now that RBG will be out in public soon, the conspiracy that she's secretly dead will only evolve. Too many people—not just QAnon folks (where it started) but also guys like Seb—got into this one. Expect lots of weird, close-up shots of ears to prove it's an old lady body double."

    Gorka responded "How is there a 'public' appearance behind closed doors? Let the Games begin!"

    This is why it's almost impossible to kill conspiracy theories. They just get more elaborate to account for contrary evidence. In this case it requires the conspiracy theorist to believe either that all of Ginsburg's colleagues, arguing counsel, and everyone in the audience at the Supreme Court (just because there are no cameras doesn't mean there's no one else there) is willing to claim Ginsburg was there when she wasn't, or that there's an RBG impersonator out there good enough to fool all of her long-time colleagues.
  • Number nine. Number nine. Number nine.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    This is why it's almost impossible to kill conspiracy theories. They just get more elaborate to account for contrary evidence. In this case it requires the conspiracy theorist to believe either that all of Ginsburg's colleagues, arguing counsel, and everyone in the audience at the Supreme Court (just because there are no cameras doesn't mean there's no one else there) is willing to claim Ginsburg was there when she wasn't, or that there's an RBG impersonator out there good enough to fool all of her long-time colleagues.
    Admit it! Ever since RBG allegedly "came back" to work, have you seen her and Hillary Clinton together at the same time??? Clearly Clinton (who, you remember, knows that law stuff) has infiltrated the Supreme Court in a bid to steal the presidency.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Number nine. Number nine. Number nine.

    rofl, if indeed the situation wasn't utterly appalling.
  • mt--
    mousethief wrote: »
    Number nine. Number nine. Number nine.

    Ok, I presume this is a quote. From what, please? I'm tempted to say the "Prisoner" TV series, because people were known by numbers. But I don't think that's right.

    Thx,
  • And in the running for "Stupidest Defendant To Ruin His Own Case Before Trial": "Roger Stone Shares a Photo of Judge With Crosshairs Near Her Head" (Rolling Stone).

    A comment there said:
    Not crosshair symbol. Closer to neo-Nazi "Celtic Cross" (probably passed along).

    And then there's Stone's tweet.
    (eyeroll)
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--
    mousethief wrote: »
    Number nine. Number nine. Number nine.

    Ok, I presume this is a quote. From what, please? I'm tempted to say the "Prisoner" TV series, because people were known by numbers. But I don't think that's right.

    Thx,

    I read it as being from the Beatles song Revolution 9 a song that attracted quite a number of conspiracy theories in its day.

    As for Roger Stone, that has got to be an attempt to pervert the course of judgement or at best for Stone, contempt of Court. Surely he now needs to pack for a very long stretch.
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited February 19
    Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--
    mousethief wrote: »
    Number nine. Number nine. Number nine.

    Ok, I presume this is a quote. From what, please? I'm tempted to say the "Prisoner" TV series, because people were known by numbers. But I don't think that's right.

    Thx,
    See this page and especially the audio files on it.

  • {Slight tangent re Beatles.|

    Thanks for the Beatles and "Number 9" info. I know about the "Paul is a dead man" and "The Walrus is Paul" clues. But I'd forgotten most of the rest of the conspiracy/hoax. Probably partly because I was a Good Little Fundamentalist Christian when George (?) made his "We're more popular than Jesus now" unfortunate comment. I went from being a fan to at least avoiding fandom. I gradually went back, as I grew up, though my appreciation is more of the lads and the music and sometimes the lyrics, than the lore.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    {Slight tangent re Beatles.|... I was a Good Little Fundamentalist Christian when George (?) made his "We're more popular than Jesus now" unfortunate comment...
    Not unfortunate - deliberate.

    And quiet George wouldn't have said it - which one of them had the biggest mouth? It's him. Blaming George. Really.
  • {Slight tangent re Beatles.}

    Well, a) ISTM it *was* unfortunate, however deliberate, because it put a lot of people off the Beatles; and b) I did put a question mark after his name. I'm not sure who it was, but I think I heard it attributed to George at some point.

    I just looked it up, and it was John. I'm not sure who was my Beatles crush, back in the day; but I think maybe Ringo, followed by Paul. So I wasn't particularly invested in George or John, except that they were in the group. (No offense to them. I think all the disapproving media about Yoko put me off her and John, way back when. But I grew to appreciate her a little more, and Paul says she wasn't responsible for the lads breaking up.)
  • Poor Yoko. The old evil woman trope.
  • Ok, we now have a shiny new Heaven thread: "The Beatles! Good, bad, music, lyrics, the lads themselves, conspiracies/hoaxes, etc."

    I've copied our little side journey to there.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And in the running for "Stupidest Defendant To Ruin His Own Case Before Trial": "Roger Stone Shares a Photo of Judge With Crosshairs Near Her Head" (Rolling Stone).

    A comment there said:
    Not crosshair symbol. Closer to neo-Nazi "Celtic Cross" (probably passed along).

    And then there's Stone's tweet.
    (eyeroll)

    At least Stone (or whoever manages his Instagram account) took the trouble to crop out the skull and crossbones in the original image. Stone has already filed a formal apology with the court, but his main purpose of making the judge recognizable to his fanatical followers for hassling purposes has already been accomplished. I'm guessing that his lawyers explained to him that you can't force a judge to recuse themselves by issuing threats and then claiming they're biased because you threatened them.
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