I have my finger ready.

HugalHugal Shipmate
I am ready to do a lot of finger pointing at Brexiteers when the economy goes down the pan. I will not be quiet. I will tell them it is their fault every single time till it sinks in that the choice they made was stupid.
Do you think I am over reacting?
«1345

Comments

  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    It's not as though they'll be shy about pointing the finger the other way.
  • Overreacting would be using multiple fingers at once.
  • Well, two would do. Pointing upwards.

    I'm inclined to line up with @Hugal, and to also tell the silly barstewards in no uncertain terms that It's Their Fault.
    :rage:
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    edited January 13
    Well personally I'm going to be trying to make the best of it. I didn't want it but maybe it will open some eyes to see beyond Europe and be a Good Thing in the long run. Hard to see it now, I totally accept, and it will require some hard work.

    For example I have been thinking about the loss of opportunities for young people to work and study inside the EU. There are lots of good universities in Asia and Africa, maybe people will change perspective and consider these as valid options.

    If we sit around pointing fingers instead of doing something about it, things are guaranteed to be shit.
  • You can do it already if the analysis is correct that the cost will be £200 billion by next year, and the economy will shrink by 3%.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    No, not at all.

    They were warned.

    But try not to get bitter, bitterness only hurts the holder.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 13
    Well, that's true, and worthy of note.

    Still - V
    :grimace:

    There, I feel better now...
  • I tend to laugh my head off now. The craziness of humans didn't need any confirmation, but Brexit and Trump have given it an extra sheen. The cavalcade of clowns, or something.
  • I rather think it's Satan, and his Daemons, who are laughing, as we Humming Beans immolate ourselves...
    Blahblah wrote: »
    Well personally I'm going to be trying to make the best of it.
    <snip>
    If we sit around pointing fingers instead of doing something about it, things are guaranteed to be shit.
    Any useful suggestions as to what 'something' the rest of us might do, to mitigate the sheer awfulness of the coming Dark Years?

  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    I am ready to do a lot of finger pointing at Brexiteers when the economy goes down the pan. I will not be quiet. I will tell them it is their fault every single time till it sinks in that the choice they made was stupid.

    Serious question: what's the point? They won't believe you anyway.

    ISTM Brexiteers fall into two camps: those who were not long on insight, persuasion by evidence, and capacity for reasoned analysis; and those far fewer who calculated that they would profit by Brexit. You will never convince the first group because of the very qualities that incited them to vote for Brexit in the first place. Those in the second group might agree with you even as they laugh all the way to the bank.

    I'd save the finger-waving for air-conducting the choir of St Martin in the Fields recordings at home.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    I rather think it's Satan, and his Daemons, who are laughing, as we Humming Beans immolate ourselves...
    Blahblah wrote: »
    Well personally I'm going to be trying to make the best of it.
    <snip>
    If we sit around pointing fingers instead of doing something about it, things are guaranteed to be shit.
    Any useful suggestions as to what 'something' the rest of us might do, to mitigate the sheer awfulness of the coming Dark Years?

    Join a union, organise, etc. If you've got time to be pointing fingers, you've got time to do something constructive.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 13
    How do you know I'm not already doing these things?

    Cuz I am.

    But thanks for the hints, anyway.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    Why are you asking me then?
  • Well, I just thought you might have some other, additional, ideas. Every little helps, as they say.
  • Drink, dear friend. Fear no more the heat 'o the sun, nor the furious Windsors' rages. Thou thy worldly task has done, so quaff, quaff, quaff. The SussexRoyal range of cocktails will be available shortly, e.g., Canadian Fiesta, MeghanHarry bourbon, joy/cash beyond compare.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It will go on. We will adapt. There will be unforeseen outcomes. There is no point in continual recrimination, it won't unspill the milk.

    The glass is falling hour by hour: the glass will fall forever.
    But if you break the bloody glass, you won't hold up the weather.
  • Sounds good to me. If the Dark Years don't pass quickly, they'll at least pass in a blur...

    ...or I'll die first. Which is OK by me.
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    Hugal wrote: »
    I am ready to do a lot of finger pointing at Brexiteers when the economy goes down the pan. I will not be quiet. I will tell them it is their fault every single time till it sinks in that the choice they made was stupid.
    Do you think I am over reacting?

    Nope. I will do the same. Especially on twitter. "You fucking voted for it you utter shit-trumpet". I will also say something similar to the person at work who vocally supports Brexit.
  • Overreacting would be using multiple fingers at once.

    Well done. :)
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Leaf wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I am ready to do a lot of finger pointing at Brexiteers when the economy goes down the pan. I will not be quiet. I will tell them it is their fault every single time till it sinks in that the choice they made was stupid.

    Serious question: what's the point? They won't believe you anyway.

    ISTM Brexiteers fall into two camps: those who were not long on insight, persuasion by evidence, and capacity for reasoned analysis; and those far fewer who calculated that they would profit by Brexit. You will never convince the first group because of the very qualities that incited them to vote for Brexit in the first place. Those in the second group might agree with you even as they laugh all the way to the bank.

    I'd save the finger-waving for air-conducting the choir of St Martin in the Fields recordings at home.

    They have to understand why things happen. Consequences of choices. They cannot complain in the tough times. They decided to let it happen. I will be nice about it. I am not a bitter person but this is hell.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I don't think finger-pointing will be nearly as easy as all that. Here is my prediction:

    1. Boris will spend most of the year playing hardball (emphasis on the 'playing'), dismissing all EU demands as unreasonable, insisting that the EU always cracks at the last minute.

    2. UK business will take a no-deal Brexit as its working assumption and postpone all major investment decisions until the situation is 'clearer'. However, as that's what UK business is already doing, no-one will notice the difference.

    3. Towards the end of November Boris will announce that there is light at the end of the tunnel, the EU are about to make a deal, etc. He will then concede to absolutely all of the EU's demands, declare that his hardball tactics have paid off and that together we have made a magnificent deal. The Mail, Telegraph and Express will all agree.

    4. Now that the worst has been averted, UK businesses will start investing again. This will cause a mini-boom just at the point where the UK leaves the transition period.

    5. Economically literate people will point out that the economy is still much smaller than it would have been without Brexit. Everyone will dismiss them as bitter Remoaners. Unfortunately, as Aslan said, no-one is ever told what would have happened.
  • What proportion of people you'll point to are racists?
  • Will finger pointing, and name calling, help anyone?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Might cut down on required therapy.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I am ready to do a lot of finger pointing at Brexiteers when the economy goes down the pan. I will not be quiet. I will tell them it is their fault every single time till it sinks in that the choice they made was stupid.
    Do you think I am over reacting?

    I won't, because I don't think I know any Brexiteers under the age of 75, and I'd be reluctant
    to be unpleasant to the over-75s. In this area, 45% voted leave, 55% voted remain but I'm clueless as to who the 45% are. I'm living withing a "remain" bubble.
  • PhilipVPhilipV Shipmate
    Any expectation of respectful, critical debate in politics has gone. The new right wing skilfully avoids reasoned debate so anyone finger pointing will find Dom Cummings was there first and has instructed some form of dissembling and irrational waffle as the official response - either that or it will be ignored and everything will move on regardless.
  • cgichardcgichard Shipmate
    There now, and I thought this thread would be about a requirement to use finger-prints as ID.
  • Hey Hugal, pull my finger :)
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    Will finger pointing, and name calling, help anyone?

    It makes us feel better.

    Because the wave of stupidity always threatens to wash us away.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I live in a strongly remain area and I do know a few. None are friends or family.

    The ones I have spoken to wouldn’t be persuaded then, so they won’t be now. They are utterly convinced in their rightness. They were jubilant and celebrated wildly after the referendum. The day after the referendum I met a stranger dog walking - he punched the air, jumped up and down and said “we’ve got our country back, isn’t it great!”

    I can not fathom it.

    But I won’t be wasting my time, emotion or energy getting annoyed with them.

  • Wise words.

    I wonder how long it'll take before 'Leavers' become 'Grievers', when they see what they've done?

    'We've got our country back' - what pathetic drivel.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I would want to ask 'What country would that be?'

    Not the UK - that will come apart in the next few years. Not the England that actually exists, with its multi-ethnic cities, foreign-owned utilities, immigrant-dependent labour, globalised industry. I fancy it is some imaginary country as delusional as De Valera's pious, agrarian Ireland or Hitler's Aryan Valhalla.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 14
    IOW, the mythical 'Merrie England', existing only in that dog-walker's head.

    The dog, I am certain, was the more intelligent member of the pair...
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    Well personally I'm going to be trying to make the best of it. I didn't want it but maybe it will open some eyes to see beyond Europe and be a Good Thing in the long run. Hard to see it now, I totally accept, and it will require some hard work.

    For example I have been thinking about the loss of opportunities for young people to work and study inside the EU. There are lots of good universities in Asia and Africa, maybe people will change perspective and consider these as valid options.

    If we sit around pointing fingers instead of doing something about it, things are guaranteed to be shit.

    I'm more in this way of thinking, too. I'm a great believer in moving forward.

    But I am thoroughly fed up with being told by Brexiteers how it's the fault of Remainers every time something goes wrong. Their determination to refuse to make the connection between voting for chaos and consequently experiencing chaos is bad enough; but to constantly blame those of us who wanted to avoid it in the first place is a pain in the backside.
  • Yes, it's just happened to me. I was commenting on the many reports that the UK economy will shrink because of Brexit. Up pops this Brexiter, to say that remainers are to blame, as they delayed Brexit. What rubbish.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    It's important to be clear about why things happen. The finger pointing does more than make someone feel better temporarily. It points out that bad decisions have bad consequences, and that there was a choice. You do have to get on with things, but to lose sight of how and why everything got to be such a mess is a mistake.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    I believe in democracy. Before the referendum I decided that I would respect the result, no matter what it was.
  • PhilipVPhilipV Shipmate
    The finger is an outdated metaphor because it depends on the recipient having an ethical and reasoned thought process. The circuitry of leavers is not 'integrated' - its based on illusion and suggestiveness. Comment to a leaver - 'Consequences for UK of abandoning the EU will promote social inequality, conceal the source of austerity, promote tax dodging by rich people and further reduce spending on public services'. Answer: 'UK will be saved because abandoning EU will let us keep the money we send to them.' Normal standards of debate have gone.
  • Telford wrote: »
    I believe in democracy. Before the referendum I decided that I would respect the result, no matter what it was.
    I believe in democracy. The 2016 vote was about the worst example of democracy I've ever seen in the UK and deserves fuck all respect.

    The Tory victory in December is an infinitely greater mandate to explore Brexit than the 2016 vote - and, that's a mandate to draw up a question that can be put to the people as a "do you agree with the government policy to seek to leave the EU on these terms?". Until we've had that question asked of the people the only basis for leaving the EU was the barely legal and constitutionally dubious decision of Parliament in 2015 to take the result of an advisory public vote as a mandate to leave the EU.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I think the country that people thought they were getting back in 2016 was the country of John Constable's 'Haywain'. Wholly imaginary now, of course.
  • And not much fun even then, if you happened to be a peasant.

    Of course, The Mad Mophead, his toadies and lickspittles, have never read Dickens, or Hardy, to find out how ordinary people existed in those far-off Golden Days.
  • PhilipVPhilipV Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    I believe in democracy. Before the referendum I decided that I would respect the result, no matter what it was.

    Well if you made up your mind on one occasion in the past then obviously that is the ultimate outcome and there is absolutely no cause and or reason to change your view no matter what happens. If only the legal system and parliament could be so intransigent instead of responding to social and cultural developments as they evolve.
  • The Tory victory in December is an infinitely greater mandate to explore Brexit than the 2016 vote - and, that's a mandate to draw up a question that can be put to the people as a "do you agree with the government policy to seek to leave the EU on these terms?".

    Tory policy on Brexit was quite clear - it was "we're doing Brexit, and there isn't going to be another referendum". That policy was handed a significant electoral victory. I'm not quite sure how you get from there to claiming that the Tories have a mandate to draw up a question for another referendum (which would be in direct opposition to their stated policy). "We should have another vote" was the Labour policy, wasn't it? That didn't fare so well at the polls.

    We agree about the 2016 referendum being stupid.
  • Because there wasn't a first referendum (well, a referendum since the 1970s anyway) whatever happens there won't be a second referendum. Thus, the Tories can put the deal under discussion to the people to confirm we agree with it without breaking their manifesto pledge.

    Not that manifesto pledges are sacrosanct, and they'll happily ditch anything else.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    Here's a something you can do: ask your Amazon Alexa about 99 factorial. If enough people do it, their servers fry.

    https://youtu.be/ZU4n9J-HCss
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    I believe in democracy. Before the referendum I decided that I would respect the result, no matter what it was.
    I believe in democracy. The 2016 vote was about the worst example of democracy I've ever seen in the UK and deserves fuck all respect.

    The Tory victory in December is an infinitely greater mandate to explore Brexit than the 2016 vote - and, that's a mandate to draw up a question that can be put to the people as a "do you agree with the government policy to seek to leave the EU on these terms?". Until we've had that question asked of the people the only basis for leaving the EU was the barely legal and constitutionally dubious decision of Parliament in 2015 to take the result of an advisory public vote as a mandate to leave the EU.

    I assume that you did not agree with the result.
  • I did not agree with the process. I still don't.

    We have a constitution based on convention and precedent, and the decision of Parliament in 2015 went against all convention, to hold a public vote on an issue that the government had no policy was without precedent. All previous examples in the UK (and, most examples elsewhere in the world) of the use of a referendum was to ask the people to confirm their approval of a government policy. The 2016 vote did not do that, therefore it's basically unconstitutional.

    In 2015 Parliament voted to hold that vote in the stupid and unprecedented form, and to "respect the result". In doing so, they voted to put EU membership front and centre of British politics for the next couple of decades. Over four years so far, many many more to come. The only way that EU membership wouldn't be the only issue of British politics for the rest of my life was if the vote in 2016 gave a big majority in favour of Remain.

    So, thanks a lot Mr Cameron for fucking everything, not just a pig. We have 10 years to radically change our society and economy, and for the rest of the world to join us, to avert climate disaster. We've had a decade of austerity that we need to repair. The world will need to unite to address the crises of refugees from war and climate. Instead we've spent our time discussing the most stupid idea ever devised, Leaving the EU, pandering to a bunch of fascists and racists. Bollocks.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited January 16
    I did not agree with the process. I still don't.

    We have a constitution based on convention and precedent, and the decision of Parliament in 2015 went against all convention, to hold a public vote on an issue that the government had no policy was without precedent. All previous examples in the UK (and, most examples elsewhere in the world) of the use of a referendum was to ask the people to confirm their approval of a government policy. The 2016 vote did not do that, therefore it's basically unconstitutional.

    In 2015 Parliament voted to hold that vote in the stupid and unprecedented form, and to "respect the result". In doing so, they voted to put EU membership front and centre of British politics for the next couple of decades. Over four years so far, many many more to come. The only way that EU membership wouldn't be the only issue of British politics for the rest of my life was if the vote in 2016 gave a big majority in favour of Remain.

    So, thanks a lot Mr Cameron for fucking everything, not just a pig. We have 10 years to radically change our society and economy, and for the rest of the world to join us, to avert climate disaster. We've had a decade of austerity that we need to repair. The world will need to unite to address the crises of refugees from war and climate. Instead we've spent our time discussing the most stupid idea ever devised, Leaving the EU, pandering to a bunch of fascists and racists. Bollocks.

    You don't agree with the process mainly because you are unhappy with the result. 'Austerity' was necessary because the previous government had messed up the economy.
  • Gee, even I know that's rubbish and I don't follow British politics closely. The previous Govt was in power when American austerity radicals in the financial sector decided 'anything goes' and crashed the world economy. Austerity is just the buzz-word name for the right wing small govt wet dream, like 'gig economy' is the new word for their no-benefits employment model.

    The alternative to austerity, which actually works, is to pump the economy with public sector cash, giving the cash to people who have little option but to spend it - welfare recipients and people who live paycheck to paycheck. We did that in Australia, and did it in a way that promoted green energy goals on a mass scale. We also have a heavily regulated finance sector that shielded us from the full blast of the Wall St financial storm. Finally, we had a war chest to spend, due to the resource boom in the late 90's and early 2000's, and a Govt that was willing to spend it.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Telford wrote: »
    I did not agree with the process. I still don't.

    We have a constitution based on convention and precedent, and the decision of Parliament in 2015 went against all convention, to hold a public vote on an issue that the government had no policy was without precedent. All previous examples in the UK (and, most examples elsewhere in the world) of the use of a referendum was to ask the people to confirm their approval of a government policy. The 2016 vote did not do that, therefore it's basically unconstitutional.

    In 2015 Parliament voted to hold that vote in the stupid and unprecedented form, and to "respect the result". In doing so, they voted to put EU membership front and centre of British politics for the next couple of decades. Over four years so far, many many more to come. The only way that EU membership wouldn't be the only issue of British politics for the rest of my life was if the vote in 2016 gave a big majority in favour of Remain.

    So, thanks a lot Mr Cameron for fucking everything, not just a pig. We have 10 years to radically change our society and economy, and for the rest of the world to join us, to avert climate disaster. We've had a decade of austerity that we need to repair. The world will need to unite to address the crises of refugees from war and climate. Instead we've spent our time discussing the most stupid idea ever devised, Leaving the EU, pandering to a bunch of fascists and racists. Bollocks.

    You don't agree with the process mainly because you are unhappy with the result. 'Austerity' was necessary because the previous government had messed up the economy.
    No; mainly (as an American), the whole process seemed to be screwed up.

    It's as though the world went mad: The Brits voted, against their own interests, for Brexit, and the Americans voted, against the interests of anyone not keen on narcissistic sociopaths, for Trump. Kyrie eleison.

Sign In or Register to comment.