Doctrine of Discovery

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
Seems like we have a couple of threads, one dealing with the discovery of the graves of children at Canadian Residential Schools, and the other about the Royals on the Rocks that are dancing around this fundamental doctrine that was expressed in the 1400s. I know I have been working with a formulation about Critical Race Theory which also appears to have this Doctrine of Discovery as its foundation.

Simply put, the doctrine of discovery claims that European civilization and Christianity were superior to all other cultures, races, and religions.

The doctrine has its roots in a series of 15th-century papal bulls, which merged the interests of European colonialism, including the African slave trade, with Christian missionary zeal. The most relevant edict for the American context was issued by Pope Alexander VI in May 1493, with the express purpose of validating Spain’s ownership of “undiscovered” lands in the Americas following the voyages of Christopher Columbus the year prior.

That history may seem irrelevant to us today, but in giving Europeans a divine right to seize the lands of non-Christian peoples anywhere in the world, it furnished the foundational lie that America was “discovered” and enshrined the innocence of “settlers” in the story white Christian Americans told about themselves.

If Europeans were superior to all others, enslavement and colonial conquest were merely the means of improving the temporal and eternal lot of Indigenous peoples. So conceived, no actual atrocities could possibly tilt the scales of justice against these immeasurable goods.

This doctrine also implied that if certain people did not convert to Christianity, Europeans (and Americans) would have the right to enslave indigenous people or even kill them in the name of Christ. Even Luther reached a point where he wanted to see Jews who refused to convert be executed---shades of Holocaust, anyone?

It got written into the Declaration of Independence and into our Constitution even. Did you know that even to this day Native American Nations cannot repurchase land that had traditionally been theirs without the approval of the United States Interior Department?

Critical Race Theory is a discipline that looks at how the use of laws has fostered the continued systematic racism in the United States. It has gotten many Republican citizens all up in arms now because they claim it is inciting more racism. Oddly, I understand Australia is considering a law banning it in their own country.

Maybe all need to work through how this false doctrine has seeped into our own lives today and work to eradicate it. True, the papacy needs to disavow such a doctrine, but we all suffer from it too.

Links:

https://religionnews.com/2021/07/02/lets-celebrate-this-fourth-of-july-without-the-myth-of-white-christian-innocence/?fbclid=IwAR2rdKJi_zfYYiQ4xyUhNfJCSBqWaQQuS6kKJUYQd0d-NyHTT3WvurHF8og

https://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/catholic-bishop-of-syracuse-decries-doctrine-of-discovery-suggests-pope-do-the-same.html

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/christopher-columbus-and-the-doctrine-of-discovery-5-things-to-know

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1122&context=mjrl








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Comments

  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    I am not a historian, but I don't believe that there was a single unified ideology or doctrine of conquest that governed all European dealings with the Americas. The doctrine of discovery appears to be a retrospective interpretation by the United States Supreme Court in 1823 to void Amerindian title to land. According to wikipedia the principle of terra nullius was never appealed to under that name before the nineteenth century: there is debate as to whether it was appealed to in fact but not name before then.

    I know that the rights and wrongs of the conquest were debated through the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Samuel Johnson, arguing against colonialism in the middle of the eighteenth century, took it that the main argument in favour was that the land had been ceded by American nations by treaty, and his chief counter argument was that no nation would sign such a treaty except by force or fraud. He didn't bother to refute any doctrine of discovery, presumably because it didn't form a major part of UK colonial ideology.

    It is not the case that the European nations spent the colonial period peaceably coexisting side by side within Europe.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited July 4
    Yes, I have a general knowledge of European history. I never claimed European countries scoexisted.

    The Spanish, in particular, were quite keen on the doctrine of discovery according to the links I provided. BTW, while we have talked about the residential schools in Canada, the missions of California were known to be responsible for the enslavement of Native Americans and thousands of deaths. https://hoodline.com/2016/03/the-lesser-told-story-of-the-california-missions/
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I am not a historian, but I don't believe that there was a single unified ideology or doctrine of conquest that governed all European dealings with the Americas. The doctrine of discovery appears to be a retrospective interpretation by the United States Supreme Court in 1823 to void Amerindian title to land. According to wikipedia the principle of terra nullius was never appealed to under that name before the nineteenth century: there is debate as to whether it was appealed to in fact but not name before then.

    A key feature of the Mabo case here, the founding decision for the recognition of native title, is that the doctrine of terra nullius had no part to play. The title of the First Peoples was a valid title by itself.
  • Merry VoleMerry Vole Shipmate
    Is this thread anything to do with the missionary zeal (particularly medical mission) that was particularly active in the couple of decades before WW2? I am particularly interested in East Africa where I worked and travelled many moons ago. (And I'm interested in the history of the East African Revival).
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Merry Vole wrote: »
    Is this thread anything to do with the missionary zeal (particularly medical mission) that was particularly active in the couple of decades before WW2? I am particularly interested in East Africa where I worked and travelled many moons ago. (And I'm interested in the history of the East African Revival).

    Likely. I am not qualified to speak about how it impacted Africa, though.
  • From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that. They'd been doing the same to reach other for centuries. The Euros' main problem is that they believe that humans are more special than other living things, that non-white people are bad, that the natural environment is dead and should be packaged up and sold.'

    I've tried to find the program and link to this unsuccessfully. Was looking again yesterday. No luck.

    I tool away that the binary living-dead, capitalist-socialist, human-world thinking is foundational to most of my thinking and needs to be revised.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin
    I would contest that Europeans were (originally) racist in the traditional sense. What they were was Christian, and it was the Christian-Heathen divide that mattered most. It was only when their tactics of conversion were unexpectedly successful did they decide that skin colour was important.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.

    I thought the point is that their values were their own, whether superior or not.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    I would contest that Europeans were (originally) racist in the traditional sense. What they were was Christian, and it was the Christian-Heathen divide that mattered most. It was only when their tactics of conversion were unexpectedly successful did they decide that skin colour was important.

    Gosh, that intrigues me. I need to go for a long walk to digest it.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.

    I thought the point is that their values were their own, whether superior or not.

    I never get that impression. It really seems that the suggestion is that Edenic cultures were destroyed by soulless Europeans who might have learned proper spiritual values if they had come to learn instead of to pillage. The facts seem more stacked toward the view that humanity in general is, in Robinson Jeffers' words, "a clever servant, insufferable master."
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.

    I thought the point is that their values were their own, whether superior or not.

    I never get that impression. It really seems that the suggestion is that Edenic cultures were destroyed by soulless Europeans who might have learned proper spiritual values if they had come to learn instead of to pillage. The facts seem more stacked toward the view that humanity in general is, in Robinson Jeffers' words, "a clever servant, insufferable master."

    That's one view, the noble savage, but it seems old-fasioned to me, or New Age. The Easter Islanders cut down their own trees, I think.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    . It was only when their tactics of conversion were unexpectedly successful did they decide that skin colour was important.
    And went to extreme lengths to prevent conversion or church attendance.
  • tclune wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.

    I thought the point is that their values were their own, whether superior or not.

    I never get that impression. It really seems that the suggestion is that Edenic cultures were destroyed by soulless Europeans who might have learned proper spiritual values if they had come to learn instead of to pillage. The facts seem more stacked toward the view that humanity in general is, in Robinson Jeffers' words, "a clever servant, insufferable master."

    That's one view, the noble savage, but it seems old-fasioned to me, or New Age. The Easter Islanders cut down their own trees, I think.

    And it's been hypothesised that the centrality of the buffalo in Sioux society was because their ancestors wiped out all other substantial animals on the plains.
  • In the Americas my understanding is that the
    tclune wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that.

    The thing that sets my teeth on edge about this is the massive ignorance it enshrines as fact. The notion that the Aztecs or Zulus or Mongols had superior values and ethics leaves me gob-smacked.

    I thought the point is that their values were their own, whether superior or not.
    I think so. Conqueror values are understood better by what they do than what they pretend to believe. The European colonist-settlers were into taking other peoples' things, including their bodies as slaves. No doubt this was the motive of many other peoples too. The Euros made it into an efficient and highly profitable thing. More organized, much bigger. The colonists-settler people didn't behave like they were supposed to according to Christianity.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    What were the most admirable values and ethics of the Aztecs?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Dave W wrote: »
    What were the most admirable values and ethics of the Aztecs?

    They had a unique aqueduct system unmatched by few cultures. They practiced hygiene techniques while Europe was dealing with plagues. They had a calendar system. Their religion emphasized maintaining balance in a hectic world



  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Dave W wrote: »
    What were the most admirable values and ethics of the Aztecs?

    They had a unique aqueduct system unmatched by few cultures. They practiced hygiene techniques while Europe was dealing with plagues. They had a calendar system. Their religion emphasized maintaining balance in a hectic world

    through a comprehensive and systematic programme of human sacrifice.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The Spanish, in particular, were quite keen on the doctrine of discovery according to the links I provided.
    None of the first three of your links are to a historian, none cite primary sources, and a similarity of phrasing makes me suspect a common origin in a press release. (I haven't read all the way through the last link.)

    Unfortunately the book I'd want to consult is currently sitting behind a sofa. Religious conversion was one justification the Spanish conquerors put forward to other Europeans, including Spanish critics (mostly Dominicans and Jesuits of which Bartolome de las Casas was only the most famous). The evils of human sacrifice was another. The idea that the Spanish had the right to conquest by discovery was not I think one of them: the idea that the Romans or Alexander the Great had only had the right to conquer parts of the world that they didn't previously know about would be fairly ridiculous. The basic underlying theory was the universally honoured theory of viae victis (What the victor says goes.)
    Samuel Johnson in his anti-colonialist tract distinguishes two moral questions: one being whether an appropriation of land by nation A is theft from the indigenous inhabitants (he thinks it is), and whether an appropriation of land by nation A is a violation of nation B's rights under the principle of honour among thieves. (If France invades New England, it wrongs both the English (by violating treaties between the conquerors) and the rightful possessors of New England.) The Papal Decrees dividing the world between Spain and Portugal address solely the latter question.

    As I said, according to wikipedia that Doctrine of Discovery as such as giving European powers a legal title to the New World against the original inhabitants was a nineteenth century invention. It should be rejected as bad law, doubly so in that it is a bad interpretation of the precedent decrees it is citing. (Especially as the Protestant powers and the French never gave what was in fact a Spanish-Portuguese treaty any attention.)



  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Dave W wrote: »
    What were the most admirable values and ethics of the Aztecs?

    They had a unique aqueduct system unmatched by few cultures. They practiced hygiene techniques while Europe was dealing with plagues. They had a calendar system.
    None of those are values or ethics.
    Their religion emphasized maintaining balance in a hectic world
    Pretty vague.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Dave W wrote: »
    What were the most admirable values and ethics of the Aztecs?

    They had a unique aqueduct system unmatched by few cultures. They practiced hygiene techniques while Europe was dealing with plagues. They had a calendar system. Their religion emphasized maintaining balance in a hectic world.
    Having a calendar system is an example of “admirable values and ethics”?
  • The Aztecs had an admirable school system for children that was world-leading. But under no circumstances would I want to be in Tenochtitlan on a religious festival day.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually. It is also garbage that Europeans are materially superior inherently, and non-Europeans materially inferior.

    NP, you have got to filter that stuff out of your analyses. It is two sides of a nineteenth century European attitude, both of which are well out of date. It reminds be of the British left, wailing about all the bad stuff the Empire is responsible for in reaction to their proto-fascist imperialist right. It still makes Britain the center of our historical universe. It might be the centre of my faux-Irish one too, I'll grant you, but that doesn't stop it being a distortion.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually. It is also garbage that Europeans are materially superior inherently, and non-Europeans materially inferior.

    NP, you have got to filter that stuff out of your analyses. It is two sides of a nineteenth century European attitude, both of which are well out of date. It reminds be of the British left, wailing about all the bad stuff the Empire is responsible for in reaction to their proto-fascist imperialist right. It still makes Britain the center of our historical universe. It might be the centre of my faux-Irish one too, I'll grant you, but that doesn't stop it being a distortion.

    Is it easier to criticize the powerless or the powerful? So much justification of suppression, stealing from, killing of the powerless because their powerlessness means sinful. As much justification of going after the powerful because they did the stealing and killing.

    The victorious also get to claim their cultural versions of religion are superior. Suppress and outlaw languages, culture and religion. Let's not get hung up on strawman human-sacrificing Aztecs. They hardly represent the many cultures "encountered" by colonist-settlers (or as Kurt Vonnegut called them "sea pirates).
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Simply put, the doctrine of discovery claims that European civilization and Christianity were superior to all other cultures, races, and religions.

    You may be right - I've not read the papal documents in question. But I'd be wary of accepting any synthesis put together by someone who isn't a serious historian.

    Your summary here claims a papal doctrine of religious, cultural and racial superiority.

    That the Vatican believed in religious superiority seems obvious. Don't Muslims believe that Islam is a superior religion ? Isn't a true religion necessarily superior to a false one ?

    But is there an explicit claim of racial superiority in the papal bulls ? Or is that just a reading-back into medieval history of later ideas ?

    My guess - and it's no more than that - would be that the source doctrine here is one that says that it's wrong for a Christian nation to attack/occupy another Christian nation's colonies, in the same way as it's wrong to attack another Christian nation itself.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited July 12
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually. It is also garbage that Europeans are materially superior inherently, and non-Europeans materially inferior.

    NP, you have got to filter that stuff out of your analyses. It is two sides of a nineteenth century European attitude, both of which are well out of date. It reminds be of the British left, wailing about all the bad stuff the Empire is responsible for in reaction to their proto-fascist imperialist right. It still makes Britain the center of our historical universe. It might be the centre of my faux-Irish one too, I'll grant you, but that doesn't stop it being a distortion.

    Is it easier to criticize the powerless or the powerful? So much justification of suppression, stealing from, killing of the powerless because their powerlessness means sinful. As much justification of going after the powerful because they did the stealing and killing.

    The victorious also get to claim their cultural versions of religion are superior. Suppress and outlaw languages, culture and religion. Let's not get hung up on strawman human-sacrificing Aztecs. They hardly represent the many cultures "encountered" by colonist-settlers (or as Kurt Vonnegut called them "sea pirates).

    Its important to be factually correct though. By all means criticise Europeans now (including we settlers) but if you make factual errors you blunt the tip of your attack. Its easily deflected. You don't need to compare the various cultures to criticise colonialism or its current manifestations. You don't have to do it to point out its exploitation and continuing negative effects. You don't have to compare them to attack our continuing destruction of the environment. You don't have to compare them to look to indigenous land practices and ways of being in working out how we can do things better. Make those arguments, rather than running down the culture of the people you have to convince to make a change.
  • I've read the papal bulls (in translation) and the rights Alexander VI grants go to the crowns of Spain and Portugal, with the intent that they ensure Catholic religion in their newly-acquired territories. It was not a grant to Europeans, but to two particular governments. There is nowhere in the text of Inter Caetera permission or mandate to do the inhabitants harm (except to perhaps steal their valuables) but other Christians interfering in the grant can be excommunicated (and Spaniards of the period would likely think that violence is just fine for their fellow Christians).

    Aside from the Spanish presence on southern Vancouver Island, the papal decisions didn't touch Canada. There was no connection between the bulls and the Crown's proclamations, and the Calder decision of 1973 overturned other rulings that the proclamations (such as that of 1763) extinguished aboriginal title. The 1823 US Supreme Court decisions assumed a doctrine-of-discovery-like attitude and linked this to the papal bulls, but that doesn't apply outside the USA.

    It's clear that European powers operated under the assumption that they could take over, but I'm not sure if we can blame that on Alexander VI. And the Spanish exercised dreadful licence aka crimes against humanity but that was their call as a state.

    Aztec sacrificial and belligerent activities would fall under the description of genocide and other states could have invoked the responsibility to protect but it's perhaps eccentric to project current international law back five centuries and give Cortez clearance.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Aztec sacrificial and belligerent activities would fall under the description of genocide and other states could have invoked the responsibility to protect but it's perhaps eccentric to project current international law back five centuries and give Cortez clearance.
    The Spanish did invoke human sacrifice as a justification from time to time. Bartholome de las Casas objected that however bad the situation was, it wasn't improved by having a loot-hungry foreign army going in uninvited.

  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that. They'd been doing the same to reach other for centuries. The Euros' main problem is that they believe that humans are more special than other living things, that non-white people are bad, that the natural environment is dead and should be packaged up and sold.'

    I've tried to find the program and link to this unsuccessfully. Was looking again yesterday. No luck.

    I tool away that the binary living-dead, capitalist-socialist, human-world thinking is foundational to most of my thinking and needs to be revised.

    @chrisstiles
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that. They'd been doing the same to reach other for centuries. The Euros' main problem is that they believe that humans are more special than other living things, that non-white people are bad, that the natural environment is dead and should be packaged up and sold.'

    I've tried to find the program and link to this unsuccessfully. Was looking again yesterday. No luck.

    I tool away that the binary living-dead, capitalist-socialist, human-world thinking is foundational to most of my thinking and needs to be revised.

    @chrisstiles

    That's his paraphrase of someone else? His own claim seems to be down-thread: "No doubt this was the motive of many other peoples too. The Euros made it into an efficient and highly profitable thing."

  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.

    Fair enough, but then it seems you either chose not to engage with NP, or just deal with the immediate argument he makes?
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    Clearly, the aphorism: 'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, is exposed to all sorts of critical comment. It does, however, make a valid point that superior technology ought not to be confused with a presumption of greater values and ethics, particular when one thinks about the sort of Europeans who showed up.

    While not wishing to exonerate Christianity from criticism in these matters, secular values were also corrupted by the greed of imperialists and slave traders. ISTM that racism is the necessary consequence of the enlightenment, for if there are rights owned equally by all human beings the continuance of colonial exploitation and slavery requires that the colonised and slaves be less than human, and is no better exemplified than by the foundational documents of the United States.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    Kwesi wrote: »
    ...if there are rights owned equally by all human beings the continuance of colonial exploitation and slavery requires that the colonised and slaves be less than human, and is no better exemplified than by the foundational documents of the United States.

    ISTM that "the foundational documents of the United States" are a bit problematical here. Thomas Jefferson's draft of the Declaration of Independence included the assertion that one of the crimes of King George III was foisting slavery onto the colonies. It was deleted by the Continental Congress before adopting it, which may be seen as support for your position. But the cognitive dissonance exhibited in Jefferson's original statement strikes me as a more telling reflection of humanity's tenuous relationship with moral values in the face of economic interest. My unhappiness with NP's view is the notion that what I see as human frailty is somehow specifically or especially the province of western civilization.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Aztec sacrificial and belligerent activities would fall under the description of genocide and other states could have invoked the responsibility to protect but it's perhaps eccentric to project current international law back five centuries and give Cortez clearance.
    The Spanish did invoke human sacrifice as a justification from time to time. Bartholome de las Casas objected that however bad the situation was, it wasn't improved by having a loot-hungry foreign army going in uninvited.

    I always found it unfortunate that his victory at the debate of Valladolid was taken by many Spanish officials as a sign to implement the losers' side. I have spent a half-hour rereading some of his writings. While he has since been put up for canonization, I suspect that he would have preferred to have been heeded, rather than honoured.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    From something I heard on CBC some while ago. This is my paraphrase.

    'The Europeans showed up with superior technology and inferior values and ethics, found people and places they could exploit and did exactly that. They'd been doing the same to reach other for centuries. The Euros' main problem is that they believe that humans are more special than other living things, that non-white people are bad, that the natural environment is dead and should be packaged up and sold.'

    I've tried to find the program and link to this unsuccessfully. Was looking again yesterday. No luck.

    I tool away that the binary living-dead, capitalist-socialist, human-world thinking is foundational to most of my thinking and needs to be revised.

    @chrisstiles

    That's his paraphrase of someone else? His own claim seems to be down-thread: "No doubt this was the motive of many other peoples too. The Euros made it into an efficient and highly profitable thing."

    Yes. With the typo, it should be "I took". I'm learning that most cultures (all?) have aspects to admire, and aspects which are destructive to other cultures. When a culture gets powerful it appears it starts to reify its superiority as based on something better than the peoples it wants to take stuff from. This may be an evolutionary hangover from early, small society times. I'm also reminded of Jane Goodall's documentation of chimpanzee genocide.

    Side note: it's not required is it, to believe the arguments you may want to discuss?
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    tclune : But the cognitive dissonance exhibited in Jefferson's original statement strikes me as a more telling reflection of humanity's tenuous relationship with moral values in the face of economic interest.

    I entirely endorse this more nuanced view, and your concluding remarks about the generality of human frailty- the Atlantic slave trade, after all, was a joint venture between Europeans and West Africans, for example.
  • Kwesi wrote: »
    tclune : But the cognitive dissonance exhibited in Jefferson's original statement strikes me as a more telling reflection of humanity's tenuous relationship with moral values in the face of economic interest.

    I entirely endorse this more nuanced view, and your concluding remarks about the generality of human frailty- the Atlantic slave trade, after all, was a joint venture between Europeans and West Africans, for example.

    "Joint venture" is overstating the case, I think. Europeans were the ones creating demand, carrying out transportation, and banking most of the profits. Some west Africans enabled it, but this seems rather like describing the international heroin trade as a joint venture between organised crime and Afghan farmers.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    The trade goods that Europeans were offering in exchange for slaves were guns. The African kingdoms of the time traditionally waged warfare by night-time raids usually for slaves as they were chronically short of labour. The slave trade took off when Europeans introduced flintlock weapons, which could be used effectively at night, creating an arms race: any nation without guns would be easily destroyed by its neighbours with guns. Any kingdom that refused to trade slaves to the Europeans would not have guns.
    The Africsn kingdoms were essentially forced into participating in the slave trade by a prisoner's dilemma situation.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited July 13
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.

    Fair enough, but then it seems you either chose not to engage with NP, or just deal with the immediate argument he makes?

    Sorry, I genuinely don't follow. Are you talking about this thread here and now, or previous threads? And what precisely am I supposed to have not engaged with?

    Because the last time I saw this come up I was part of the group of people that pointed out how, actually, non-Europeans were not entirely brilliant at living with nature because there are several instances of non-Europeans driving megafauna extinct.

    To which I'd now add that if you want an excellent example of a civilisation failing to live within its natural means, try the Maya.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.

    Fair enough, but then it seems you either chose not to engage with NP, or just deal with the immediate argument he makes?

    Sorry, I genuinely don't follow. Are you talking about this thread here and now, or previous threads? And what precisely am I supposed to have not engaged with?

    I'm talking about this thread, in which he doesn't seem to make claims of quite that sort -- though of course if you think that argument with him is ultimately futile then that is also your perogative.
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    Arethosemyfeet: "Joint venture" is overstating the case, I think.

    While I have some sympathy with your position in that it rightfully, IMO, seeks to keep Europeans on the hook, African support for the Atlantic trade cannot be underestimated. Slavery was an endemic feature of those societies and remains a problem, particularly in Mauritania. Secondly, the trade preceded the colonisation of Africa, though not of the Americas. Thirdly, European presence on the mainland across West Africa never exceeded 50 at any one time in the eighteenth century, and was mostly confined to the coastal 'castles', such as Elmina and Cape Coast, due to malaria and yellow fever. (As the sailors sang: "Remember, Remember the Bight of Benin/ None comes out, though many go in). Fourthly, the castles were essentially human warehouses, indefensible from the land, and serviced by the townships they helped sustain. Local fishermen took out the slaves in their canoes to sea-going ships off-shore. Fifthly, in 1817, ten years after the British outlawed the trade, the Asantahene (Paramount Chief of Ashanti in modern Ghana), sent a letter to the British government requesting its revival. Sixthly, it was not uncommon for African slavers to visit the operation in the Americas. To argue that 'some' West Africans were involved seems to me misleading. Indeed, a greater proportion of West Africans were pr4obabl

  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    [continued} were probably involved than Britons.

    Such uncomfortable facts rarely find expression, and are the cause of considerable anguish for African-Americans visiting Ghana, because they have the misimpression that their ancestors were rounded up by Europeans. It is only when they are being guided round slave castles that the truth of the historical process emerges. As a consequence, a sanitised version has been developed for tourist purposes and Americans are shown around slave castles in segregated groups by curators. Cultural dissonance can create less fraught confrontations, as when a group of Christians from the UK apologised to the Ga Mantse (paramount chief) of Accra for the slave trade. That his forebears were involved in the trade was not mentioned. Slavery is not a topic Ghanaians are anxious to discuss. The Brits are by no means the only ones who need to confront the past.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited July 13
    orfeo wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.

    Fair enough, but then it seems you either chose not to engage with NP, or just deal with the immediate argument he makes?

    Sorry, I genuinely don't follow. Are you talking about this thread here and now, or previous threads? And what precisely am I supposed to have not engaged with?

    I'm talking about this thread, in which he doesn't seem to make claims of quite that sort -- though of course if you think that argument with him is ultimately futile then that is also your perogative.

    Ahem. I thought your position was that he hadn't made any argument, but had merely paraphrased someone else's?

    I can hardly be blamed for not engaging with an argument that hasn't been made. You're going to have sort out what you think is happening here.

    But I also don't particularly feel the need to add much to what others have said on the topic. Europeans had superior technology - for reasons which I would generally adopt from Guns, Germs and Steel. That is, I would not claim that Europeans were somehow inherently superior. But I think that claiming they were somehow inherently inferior is just the same kind of error in the opposite direction.

    Any such large class of human being is perfectly capable of demonstrating both the best and worst of human behaviour, given the opportunity or circumstances. The idea that Europeans were unique in exploiting other groups of people is nothing more than ahistorical nonsense. It's simply that technology provided Europeans with more opportunity to do so and a wider reach. And the rest of the stuff about Europeans and nature was dealt with last time, as I've said.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It is bullshit of the highest stink that Europeans are intrinsically bad spiritually and non-Europeans are intrinsically good spiritually.

    Not sure who in this thread is claiming this. Could you provide some citations ?

    NP said it, as good as.

    I wouldn't put things in quite that way, but that's still not saying what you claiming it's saying above.

    To put it delicately, this is not the first thread in which NP has pretty much conveyed that Europeans have ruined the world. It's an ongoing theme.

    Fair enough, but then it seems you either chose not to engage with NP, or just deal with the immediate argument he makes?

    Sorry, I genuinely don't follow. Are you talking about this thread here and now, or previous threads? And what precisely am I supposed to have not engaged with?

    I'm talking about this thread, in which he doesn't seem to make claims of quite that sort -- though of course if you think that argument with him is ultimately futile then that is also your perogative.

    Ahem. I thought your position was that he hadn't made any argument, but had merely paraphrased someone else's?

    No. I don't think he was making the argument that Simon Toad was claiming that people in this thread were making, and he's clarified his position above.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Thank you, Kwesi, for your summation of the slave trade from the viewpoint of an African.

    A show I like to watch is the PBS Finding Your Roots. Often, when the hosts interviews a celebrity African American they can only go back to the last generation that had been enslaved in the US since the names of the slaves were not listed in any official census. Usually, a slave was just listed as either male or female and what age, after all, they were only 3/5ths human according to our constitution--they were denied their names. There are some unofficial sources like diaries or folklore that may go back to another generation. DNA samples have been able to help some of the guests to go back to the general area in Africa where their family may have come from.

    To think that entire families were ripped apart to feed the demand for slaves in Europe and America is astounding. We need to eradicate the remaining pockets of slavery throughout the world.
  • GarethMoonGarethMoon Shipmate
    While we in the UK definitely have to work through empire and slavery, I am very glad that we don't have some of the more recent difficulties the US have to navigate regarding race eg Jim Crow, an indigenous population who had land stolen wanting it back (notwithstanding 1066), widespread slavery not that long ago etc

    I am confused about how America especially will deal with it, especially when it comes to mixed race identity.

    We white people need to take responsibility, but how much black/native/ethnic blood removes that responsibility and puts the person into the "victim" (I dislike the word though) category eg in need of reparations or apology and in no need of giving reparations (eg through taxation) or of making apologies not only on behalf of white people in general but their ancestors in particular?

    There was an article recently that was fascinating, heart breaking, totally understandable but scarily close to invoking the "one drop of blood" rule regarding ethnicity.

    Someone can be biologically more than half white but (understandably) identify fully as black. I don't know if that causes problems in not taking responsibility for the actions of ancestors (the majority of her ancestors) or if the fact that her ancestors (less than half) were the direct victims nullifies any "guilt" or responsibility she would hold, either for her (white slaver) ancestors in particular or white racist society in general?


    "I have rape-colored skin. My light-brown-blackness is a living testament to the rules, the practices, the causes of the Old South.

    If there are those who want to remember the legacy of the Confederacy, if they want monuments, well, then, my body is a monument. My skin is a monument...

    I am a black, Southern woman, and of my immediate white male ancestors, all of them were rapists. My very existence is a relic of slavery and Jim Crow.

    According to... the social and legal practice of assigning a genetically mixed-race person to the race with less social power... I am the daughter of two black people, the granddaughter of four black people, the great-granddaughter of eight black people... as modern DNA testing has allowed me to confirm, I am the descendant of black women who were domestic servants and white men who raped their help.

    It is an extraordinary truth of my life that I am biologically more than half white, and yet I have no white people in my genealogy in living memory. No. Voluntary. Whiteness. I am more than half white, and none of it was consensual. White Southern men — my ancestors — took what they wanted from women they did not love, over whom they had extraordinary power, and then failed to claim their children."


    Full article: https://nytimes.com/2020/06/26/opinion/confederate-monuments-racism.html
  • I can't think that allocating payer and payee status by the fraction of someone's ancestors that fall into whatever category is remotely sensible.

    America is full of immigrants. Do people owe reparations based on the fraction of their ancestors that were Americans before the civil war? If you can show that one of your white ancestors worked to end slavery, does that get you partially off the hook? That all seems like nonsense to me.

    Black people are currently screwed over by the system, and I don't think it makes much difference whether those people are the descendants of slaves, or are immigrants from Somalia.
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