Escaped Hymns

On one of the other threads "There is a green hill" was considered as one where 'every church' sings it. It was pointed out that the Orthodox (even in America don't know it), and alleged that the Catholic's don't (Which is almost certainly true globally, but I'd bet against nationally).
So this is for (particularly post 1800*) hymns that you feel you'd expect most 'English' Churches to know regardless of denomination. And to then comment on whether they are indeed widespread. Or alternatively ones that are international but perhaps denominationally tied. Or perhaps ones that have escaped into a local community with affection.

So from the Anglicans, "Amazing Grace", one or 2 Kendrick ones, a few Dudley Smith
From the Weslyans "And can it be" and others by Charles
From the Catholics "At the name of Jesus", Taize O Lord Hear my prayer, "Make me a channel"

*As then they've actively crossed a boundary. I mean you can mention you sing Psalm 23 too, but at that point try to make it interesting.
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Comments

  • AlbertusAlbertus Shipmate
    I was brought up on the English Hymnal and 'And can it be...' (one of my favourites, actually) wasn't part of that at all. I can't remember where I first heard it, although I knew the words by heart by the time I was about 19.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    It's in the 1962 "Baptist Hymn Book" but not in the 1933 "Baptist Hymnal". I can't remember if it's in what we use when it's not Mission Praise.
  • Knowledge of hymns is extremely variable according to geography and church traditions. As a younger, more naive, and (even more) arrogant person, I was shocked to hear that another member of my college chapel had never heard of "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy." I know most of the hymns in the New English Hymnal. But now I live in the US, and I know perhaps half of the hymns in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal. At my current parish, we recently had "There is a Balm in Gilead" as the Communion hymn and I was one of the few who had to use the hymnal.

    To take another recent example, I teased my students about the poor quality of hymn singing in our school chapel. Several of them responded by saying that they liked to sing "good Jesus songs" and then named examples which were totally unfamiliar to me.

    Of the hymns mentioned in the OP, I know only Amazing Grace by heard. I've sung "And Can it Be" reasonably often, and I would recognize "Make me a Chanel of your Peace."

    Most widely known hymn in the US: Amazing Grace, Christmas carols.
    Widely known hymns amongst non-churchgoing Britains: Christmas carols, "Guide me, O thou Great Jehovah/Redeemer;" maybe "Morning has Broken," "All Things Bright and Beautiful," and "I vow to thee my country."

    For Britons who actually attend church, I'd also expect them to know "Thine be the glory" and perhaps a few others.
  • The Lord's my shepherd, sung to that ghastly tune Crimond (YMMV), used to be common at UK funerals (usually played at a slug's pace by the resident crematorium organist....).

    :anguished:

    IJ
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    This is a list from the BBC's Songs of Praise in 2013 of their 100 top hymns.

    A lot of them aren't ones I would have chosen but there are only three I don't know + one which I think must be one the BBC would like us all to sing. Although I know it from hearing it on the programme, I've never heard it sung anywhere else. All four are 50+ in the list.

    Incidentally, going back to the OP, I don't think At the Name of Jesus is originally Catholic, and anything Taize is ecumenical Protestant. O come all ye faithful, though is Catholic. It comes from the Catholic chapel to the Portuguese Embassy in London. So is Praise to the Holiest in the Height as Newman wrote it after he crossed the Tiber. People have plundered each other's hymns and have been doing so for years.

    Another surprising thing is that different denominations and different countries turn out to have completely different ideas as to what tune goes with which hymn.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Oh, my mistake (I wonder what I was thinking of, Caroline-Ca? Taize is at least a bit more understandable). So at that point glad for some real examples. And yes, and everyone thinks that their tune/lyrics are the 'proper' one. Was particularly looking at ones that made a jump, so the BBC list won't be quite the same but a good place to start.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Albertus wrote: »
    I was brought up on the English Hymnal and 'And can it be...' (one of my favourites, actually) wasn't part of that at all. I can't remember where I first heard it, although I knew the words by heart by the time I was about 19.
    I had never heard of “And Can It Be” until mentions of it on the Ship. I think it may be in the United Methodist Hymnal, but I know nothing about it but the name and the writer. I have no clue what it sounds like.

    At a (Southern Baptist) funeral yesterday, I heard another that gets mention on the Ship periodically: “In Christ Alone.” The tune sounded vaguely familiar, so I guess maybe I’ve heard it somewhere before (or maybe it’s just one of those tunes), but this was the first time I’d heard and been aware of what I was hearing.

    And @jay_emm, with regard to “There is a Green Hill,” it was also pointed out by a few of us in that other thread that it’s not sung by American Presbyterians. You seemed surprised at the suggestion that American Catholics wouldn’t know it. I’d be very surprised if any did, unless they’d grown up singing it in a different denomination.

    @Bishops Finger, my take on Crimond is that it can be quite nice when played and sung properly, which—here at least—happens all too rarely.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    I mentioned recently on the old boards that I was asked to help make up the tenor numbers in ad hoc choir for an Advent carol service last December at the local Catholic cathedral.

    Most of the other singers are regular church-goers and are heavily involved with the musical life of their respective Catholic parishes. So it came as a shock to me when most of them complained about the unfamiliar final hymn that they had been sight-reading during the service, suggesting that something better known ought to have been chosen.

    They were referring to Lo, He comes with clouds descending.
  • We sang “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” this morning, and based on our conversation after church, it seems to be fairly widely sung here in the States, including among the Mormans, although it apparently got cut from their newest hymnal. It’s also pretty popular with praise bands, which opens up a whole swath of American Christians who might not know a whole lot of the traditional canon. The only question is if you use the Ebenezer line.
  • Yes, “Come Thou Fount or Every Blessing” definitely falls among the hymns that most American churchgoers know—well, Protestants, at least. Not sure about Catholics. (And I’m guessing this whole thread doesn’t really apply to the Orthodox.)

    I heard an Episcopal choirmaster/organist go on a little rant recently about The Hymnal 1982 not using the Ebenezer line, which he considered an example of dumbing down. (We do use the Ebenezer line.)
  • Do you all really use printed hymnbooks? How quaint.

    Churches of all denominations in Australia sing each other's songs now, because they're projected onto a screen, or printed (with a melody line) on a service sheet. This makes for eclectic and ecumenical repertoires.

    The last verse of "There is a green hill borders on Pelagian - "And try his works to do".
  • BasilicaBasilica Shipmate
    The Lord's my shepherd, sung to that ghastly tune Crimond (YMMV), used to be common at UK funerals (usually played at a slug's pace by the resident crematorium organist....).

    It's worse now. It's still fairly common, but undertakers/crems no longer want to pay for an organist, so a choral version is played over the speakers for the congregation to "sing along to".

    This is, of course, impossible, because the key chosen for choral recordings is never one that is good for a congregation to sing.
    Albertus wrote: »
    I was brought up on the English Hymnal and 'And can it be...' (one of my favourites, actually) wasn't part of that at all. I can't remember where I first heard it, although I knew the words by heart by the time I was about 19.

    I grew up on the NEH, and never encountered it until I got to theological college when I was 23. I still don't like it, because people sing different parts and I never know which bits I'm supposed to sing.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    With or without Ebenezer, “Come Thou Fount or Every Blessing” isn't that well known over here.

    "And try his works to do" isn't Pelagian unless you take it out of context. The previous line is "and trust in his redeeming blood,".

    The version of Psalm 23 that goes to Crimond comes from the Scottish psalter. As it is in Common Metre, it can be sung to a number of other tunes. I've heard that in Scotland it is sometimes sung to Martyrs an attractive modal tune that changes its timing part way through the last line. That itself is not the same tune as Martyrdom the tune linked in England to Psalm 42 As pants the hart.
  • I'd guess that the Doxology (Praise God from Whom all Blessings Flow) is pretty broadly known in the US and Canada at least, as it is a fairly standard feature in non-Baptist/non-non-denominational services. Just As I Am as well, as that is both a standard altar call hymn as well as known from decades of Billy Graham crusade broadcasts.
  • Enoch makes the excellent point that hymns written in Common Metre can often be sung to tunes, other than the usual ones!

    There is always scope for creativity between organist, choirmaster, poor sap who has to choose the hymns, or whoever. A session led by John Bell (he of Iona fame) made just this point at a Diocesan Conference I attended some aeons ago...

    IJ
  • Enoch wrote: »
    This is a list from the BBC's Songs of Praise in 2013 of their 100 top hymns.

    Interesting that "O God our help in ages past" is not on that list. IIRC some survey within my lifetime had it as Britains favourite hymn.

    The test for Presbyterians or is it just Scots that would have this version of Psalm 24.

    If you want the English Congregational equivalent Watts' version of PSalm 122 but few remember that.

    The URC equivalent is Watts' "When I survey the wondrous cross"

    Jengie

  • Enoch wrote: »
    The version of Psalm 23 that goes to Crimond comes from the Scottish psalter. As it is in Common Metre, it can be sung to a number of other tunes. I've heard that in Scotland it is sometimes sung to Martyrs an attractive modal tune that changes its timing part way through the last line.
    It is also sung - splendidly - to "Orlington".

  • Enoch wrote: »
    With or without Ebenezer, “Come Thou Fount or Every Blessing” isn't that well known over here.
    Agreed. It goes well to "Nettleton".

  • When choosing hymns for an interdenominational Good Friday service, we decided that "There is a green hill", "When I survey", "Man of sorrows" and "The old rugged cross" were pretty common currency. We used them for years.
  • A dear old friend, long ago promoted to Glory, absolutely hated 'The Old Rugged Cross' because, she said, of its connections with the Ku Klux Klan!
    :open_mouth:

    But yes, BT's list would probably be suitable for churches around here, though interdenominational Good Friday services tend to be dominated by the local char-evo church and its praise band...
    :neutral:

    IJ
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    OGOHIAP is 81 (it has a comma to confuse the search). I'd say 85% of that list I'm familiar with (as in instantly know the next line). The poppy version of "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" definitely made it back over here. Just as I am, and a decent selection of Fanny Crosby likewise. The old rugged cross I'd say is rare[r] here. While 'Come thou font' I think there's a fair chance I've never heard. [My song is love unknown was another standard Good Friday one I think]
  • Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The test for Presbyterians or is it just Scots that would have this version of Psalm 24.
    It's just Scots, I’m afraid, or at least non-American Presbyterians. That version and that tune never made it across the pond, much to my consternation.
    That's a very common one over here, but I think the Episcopalians are the only ones who sing it to Rockingham. The rest of us sing it to Hamburg. (Rockingham is given as an alternate tune in our hymnal, but I’ve never heard a Presbyterian congregation use it.)
    jay_emm wrote: »
    While 'Come thou font' I think there's a fair chance I've never heard.
    Just in case. (This is a concert arrangement, but a nice one.)

  • “When I Survey” is another one that frequently gets the praise band treatment.(Disclaimer: I probably haven’t heard a praise band live in over a decade, so my knowledge of their standards may be out of date.)
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    And I’m guessing this whole thread doesn’t really apply to the Orthodox.

    Except for Christmas hymns. On St Nicholas' day# (Dec 6 I think) a few old favourites would be belted out by the choir and congregation at my parish in Sydney town. Silent Night and O Come All Ye Faithful I seem to recall, plus some others.

    So it appears Father was fine with Christmas songs in Advent.


    # or was it the Sunday before Nativity/Christmas? I truly cannot recall.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    A fantastic setting but I'd regard Psalm 24 to St George's Edinburgh as unequivocally Scots.

    I've not heard Hamburg used for When I survey. It's not a tune I'm familiar with. Traditionally, here, it has always been sung to Rockingham, but in the last 10 years or so, it has begun also to be sung to the folk tune Waly Waly which it fits rather well. Og is that the setting you're referring to when you talk about the praise band treatment.

    Rockingham is also the usual tune for My God and is thy table spread?.
  • AndrasAndras Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    The version of Psalm 23 that goes to Crimond comes from the Scottish psalter. As it is in Common Metre, it can be sung to a number of other tunes. I've heard that in Scotland it is sometimes sung to Martyrs an attractive modal tune that changes its timing part way through the last line.
    It is also sung - splendidly - to "Orlington".

    And up to the early 20th Century it was sung to that splendid tune Belmont. The story goes that the Glasgow Orpheus Choir of immortal renown were making a recording of hymns, and The Lord's My Shepherd was on the list, but as they'd already used Belmont for one of the other hymns they cast around for a different CM tune and came up with Crimond; and the rest is history.

    Brother James' Air is nice as well.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The test for Presbyterians or is it just Scots that would have this version of Psalm 24.
    It's just Scots, I’m afraid, or at least non-American Presbyterians. That version and that tune never made it across the pond, much to my consternation.
    That was what I was half suspicious of. The Presbyterian Church of England was often the Caledonian Society at prayer and in my experience, former members tend to confuse Presbyterianism with being Scots. The idea that you can be Presbyterian and not Scots is really conceptually difficult for them.

    Jengie
  • Climacus wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    And I’m guessing this whole thread doesn’t really apply to the Orthodox.

    Except for Christmas hymns. On St Nicholas' day# (Dec 6 I think) a few old favourites would be belted out by the choir and congregation at my parish in Sydney town. Silent Night and O Come All Ye Faithful I seem to recall, plus some others.

    So it appears Father was fine with Christmas songs in Advent.


    # or was it the Sunday before Nativity/Christmas? I truly cannot recall.
    Interesting, Climacus. Thanks for that.

  • Enoch: The praise band version I have heard used Hamburg, with a rock-inspired chorus.

    Hymnal 1982 uses Rockingham for both “Survey” and “My God Thy Table Now is Spread,” as you note, but we discovered last week when singing the latter that the harmonizations are different. Our organist wasn’t aware, and just started playing the one from “Cross” at rehearsal, which threw the rest of us, who were singing the notes on the page for “Table,” for a loop. (There are other examples in 1982 where one tune will be in different keys on two separate hymns. This led to a few sopranos really straining when we tried using a descendant written for a tune, but the version a few keys lower.)
  • Do you all really use printed hymnbooks? How quaint.

    Nobody's projector has enough resolution to project a satisfactory SATB score.
  • ...and only in the USA are you likely to find hymnbooks in the pews that include SATB. They would be useless in England for example, as most people don't read music. But we have had this discussion may times before...
  • posted by jay_emm
    So from the Anglicans, "Amazing Grace", one or 2 Kendrick ones, a few Dudley Smith
    From the Weslyans "And can it be" and others by Charles
    From the Catholics "At the name of Jesus", Taize O Lord Hear my prayer, "Make me a channel"
    Well, our Anglican place uses the New English Hymnal: you won't find us singing anything by Kend***k at a regular service, nor will Amazing Grace ever appear. The Dudley-Smith hymns we sing are Beyond all mortal praise which has a fine tune by the organist Wayne Marshall) and Tell out, my soul. On the other hand we do sing And can it be.

    An RC friend staying at the moment says he has never used of heard sung At the name of Jesus in an RC church. His first choice for RC "in common" hymns would be Sweet Sacrament divine and Faith of our Fathers.
  • ...and only in the USA are you likely to find hymnbooks in the pews that include SATB. They would be useless in England for example, as most people don't read music. But we have had this discussion may times before...

    Yes, we have :wink: And I'm as surprised when I hear people say this as I would be were they to say something like "we don't tell people the budget because they're all innumerate" or something. When I went to school (in the UK) everyone learned recorder, and so everyone learned to read music at at least a rudimentary fashion. My church in the UK had some copies of the hynmal with an SATB score and some with just the melody, and you could choose which you wanted. Don't remember which hymnal, though - it was green, but that hardly helps. None of this seemed terribly unusual, but I suppose the things you grow up with don't.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    ... An RC friend staying at the moment says he has never used of heard sung At the name of Jesus in an RC church. His first choice for RC "in common" hymns would be Sweet Sacrament divine and Faith of our Fathers.
    I would admit that I'm MoR to Low. Nevertheless, I don't think I've ever heard either Sweet Sacrament divine or Faith of our Fathers sung in the CofE. I would regard them as RC in the same way that some of the less well known Wesley hymns are Methodist.
  • “Faith of our Fathers” was common among Presbies in my childhood; it’s still in the hymnal but doesn’t seem to be sung as much anymore.

    When I think RC, I think “Holy God, We Praise Your Name.”
  • From Enoch's list, the only one in the top 50 which I have never heard sung in church (though I have heard it on the radio) is "I vow to thee my country" There are two in the second half which I don't recognise "I'll go in the strength of the Lord" and ""Father, hear the prayers we offer", and another three that I'm only vaguely aware of.

    I'm quite surprised - I thought there would be more, especially as several of our regular hymns aren't on that list; "Thou art before me, Lord" for example.
  • BasilicaBasilica Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    ... An RC friend staying at the moment says he has never used of heard sung At the name of Jesus in an RC church. His first choice for RC "in common" hymns would be Sweet Sacrament divine and Faith of our Fathers.
    I would admit that I'm MoR to Low. Nevertheless, I don't think I've ever heard either Sweet Sacrament divine or Faith of our Fathers sung in the CofE. I would regard them as RC in the same way that some of the less well known Wesley hymns are Methodist.
    Whereas I would see Sweet Sacrament divine as one of the staple CofE Eucharistic hymns (albeit restricted to moderate to high churches). I agree that I've never come across Faith of our Fathers.
  • One I think I would expect to be familiar is Jesus lover of my soul. Whether it actually is would be a matter for debate.

    I've certainly found that moving from a middle of the road English Anglican milieu to that of Scottish Presbyterianism that there are a few hymns and particularly metrical psalms with which I'm unfamiliar. I also get repeatedly tripped up by different tunes for O for a thousand tongues, Just as I am, and others. That said, I think I've probably come across more that I know that are unfamiliar here than vice-versa. Some of them for obvious reasons, like And now, O Father, mindful of the love and others that are in the hymnbooks but simply not used, like Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire.
  • From Enoch's list, the only one in the top 50 which I have never heard sung in church (though I have heard it on the radio) is "I vow to thee my country"

    I've sung it in church on a number of occasions, although its first verse is often seen as somewhat problematic these days, so I think it's going to fall further out of favour. As I read down the list, my first unfamiliar hymn is "Will Your Anchor Hold In The Storms Of Life" which I have never come across at all.

    Like Jengie, I'm surprised that "O God our help in ages past" didn't rate a mention - I'd certainly regard it as one of the standard hymns that comes around regularly in the rotation.

    I'd also think that schoolboy favourite "He who would valiant be" would rank higher based on people's memories of their schooldays, but perhaps we're a generation late for that to register much.


  • Memories of singing "He who would valiant be" at school assemblies ensure that it will never be in my top 100.

    "Will your anchor hold" is the Boys Brigade hymn here, so we sing it annually at least.
  • Wasn't "He Who Would Valiant Be" sung at the Baroness Thatcher's funeral? (We have sung it as an easy communion motet during summer choir, when there is no weekly rehearsal and we have to rely on the old stand-by's and a few hymns. I don't think I have heard it sung here in the States otherwise. I'm in charge of programming the music for my parents' funerals when they happen, and I have that one penciled in for my father.)
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Are all the people referring to Faith of our Fathers sure that there talking about the same hymn?

    There are Faith of our Fathers Taught of Old and also Faith of our Fathers, Living Still.
  • For some folk around here, 'He who would valiant be' is just too damn non-inclusive to be sung, So I tried my hand at inclusivising it, effectively turning 'he' to 'we' and so on. We sang it a couple of times without any real response. Sadly, I suspect that knowledge of it (and use of it) is in severe decline.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Cyprian wrote: »
    ...that there talking...

    That's the last time I post from my phone.
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever heard either Sweet Sacrament divine or Faith of our Fathers sung in the CofE. I would regard them as RC in the same way that some of the less well known Wesley hymns are Methodist.
    Have sung both hymns very often in C of E.

    Additionally 'O come to my heart Lord Jesus' and 'What a friend we have in Jesus' go down well at Benediction.

    Why should the evangelicals have all the best tune?
  • I've never heard of 'Faith of our Fathers taught of old' but like Cyprian I found it difficult to believe that some non-Catholics would sing or even want to know 'Faith of our Fathers living still, in spite of dungeon, fire and sword'
  • Forthview wrote: »
    I've never heard of 'Faith of our Fathers taught of old' but like Cyprian I found it difficult to believe that some non-Catholics would sing or even want to know 'Faith of our Fathers living still, in spite of dungeon, fire and sword'

    According to Wikipedia the 7th day Adventists really like it. :neutral:

    Taken on its own (and not as a coded call for sedition against church and state :naughty: ) it seems perfectly acceptable.
  • Leo wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever heard either Sweet Sacrament divine or Faith of our Fathers sung in the CofE. I would regard them as RC in the same way that some of the less well known Wesley hymns are Methodist.
    Have sung both hymns very often in C of E.

    Additionally 'O come to my heart Lord Jesus' and 'What a friend we have in Jesus' go down well at Benediction.

    Why should the evangelicals have all the best tune?
    And there's the rub- both those hymns are seen as being Halfway to Rome and beyond the pale for evangelical establishments. When we recently succeeded in replacing "Hymns for Today's Church" with "Ancient and Modern", finding "Sweet Sacrament Divine" and "Ye who own the Faith of Jesus" in the new book was almost a deal-breaker. But not quite :wink:

  • I know one church that regularly has at High Mass and Ashing on Ash Wednesday:
    He who would true valour see
    When I survey the wondrous cross

    Yep, two Puritan hymns out of four.

    Jengie
  • I got to number 48 of enoch's list before I found one that I didn't know.

    In all there were 10 That I had never heard of..
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