anti-Semitism

mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
edited March 2018 in Hell
What is it with politicians and their sudden blindness regarding anti-Semitism?

I mean really

Get a clue, you fucking knobhead. How much do you have to know about Nazi-era Jewish stereotypes to realise - after a quick glance - that this is anti-Semitic? Very little.

Yeah, we know you've marched and protested and shaken hands and looked a bit concerned about racism in and outside of your party, but when it comes down to it, you are a blind old man reverting to type.

When are you going to reel in Momentum and all the Socialist Worker pricks hiding under your coat-tails to pitch their cocktail of virilant xenophobia and racism. Do you even care what they're doing?

No, Jewish protesters outside parliament are NOT a "special interest" group using "immense strength" to "employ the full might" of the BBC to get their message across as some of your rabid supporters vocally claim.

No I'm not linking to that, if anyone here wants to see the gory details, look it up.

Yes, we all know the Tories have their own issues with xenophobia. Yes we know they're racking over the coals to find things to attack you and your party. But for fucks sake, there are clearly things to find here.

And stop with this "pro Palestinian" bullshit. It is not "pro Palestinian" to sit back and watch, sometimes even support, when the worst kinds of Jewish stereotyping becomes the norm in socialist public spaces.
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Comments

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I agree.
  • I'd been wondering whether this topic was going to come up on the Ship: the good and saintly Archbishop Cranmer got there a while ago and while some of the comments are irritating, many make a lot of sense.

    Leave aside whether or not Mr Corbyn is anti-jewish, what I find most disturbing are two things: first, the continual knee-jerk reaction to all things remotely connected to Israel or Palestinians along the lines of "my enemy's enemy must be my friend"; second the continuing theme that he "didn't know", "didn't notice", "hadn't read", "hadn't realised", etc, etc, etc in relation to material that would give most schoolchildren who have been taught about the holocaust pause for thought. To my mind the first approach shows a lack of curiosity worrying in someone who sees himself as a potential Prime Minister; the second not only underlines the first, it betrays a casual attitude that could be catastrophic in someone tasked with overall responsibility for the defence of the country.

    As for the anti-jewish stance: To my mind being against racism, as Mr Corbyn claims to be, is a principled position that holds that everyone - regardless of race, colour or creed - has a right to existence and a right to live their life without fear of persecution. Anyone seeking to put qualifiers on that - for instance by claiming that a group has no "right" to be in a geographic location - nullifies their credentials to be without prejudice.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    To me, a big part of the knee-jerk response is in the other direction - to wit an almost instantaneous response whenever a Jewish organisation complains about something that they are "over-reacting" or "tools of the Israeli propaganda machine" or "apologists for Zionism".

    No, they're just people from a religious minority who object to walking down the street and having to see a mural that is *plainly* a throwback to the Elders of Zionism and a party leader (for some of those complaining their party leader) who seems unable to do anything than voice support to artists without stopping to consider context.

    And a party machine that seems unable to act when it is obvious that a candidate is promoting obvious Holocaust denial in the name of "opening discussion".

    Come on now. There is nothing to discuss regarding the reality of the Holocaust. Nobody needs to "wait and see" what will happen and no official in the party should be encouraging the acceptance of Holocaust denying candidates. This isn't brain surgery; you don't need multiple degrees and years of training and experience to think this through: you just have to have some basic grasp of history.

    And it's not about fucking optics. Nobody is uptight simply because of the way this looks (although it surely looks bad to even casual observers) but because of the deep wells of racism that exist in the Labour party.

    There is an pro-Israeli and pro-colonialist PR machine and narrative, but this isn't part of it. As any fool can see.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Leave.EU today on twitter:
    Is it any wonder that Labour can't be bothered to deal with the disgusting antisemitism in their party when they are so reliant on the votes of Britain's exploding Muslim population? It's a question of maths for these people, not justice!

    source

    Gold star for upping the racism, you utter stinking heaps of shite.
  • But it looks to me as if being critical of Israel, is conflated by some people with being anti-Semitic. They are obviously not the same. I agree that Corbyn was an idiot, if he approved that mural without realizing its anti-Semitic nature.
  • But it looks to me as if being critical of Israel, is conflated by some people with being anti-Semitic.

    Right - which isn't the case, particularly given some of the main criticisms come from Jews.

    The problem is that it is a fairly easy step to move from objecting to Israeli activities in the occupied Palestinian Territories to making wild conspiracies about Jews.
    They are obviously not the same. I agree that Corbyn was an idiot, if he approved that mural without realizing its anti-Semitic nature.

    He'd have been far, far better to say nothing at all. This is a totally self-induced wound.

  • What do people think Corbyn actually believes, not just what he says? Has what he really believes about Israel changed over time? Does he think, as many (but by no means all) on the fringes of the left do, that a separate Jewish state in Palestine should not have been created but that it should be abolished in favor of a single secular state for all Jewish and Arab inhabitants of Palestine and all Palestinian refugees abroad? Does he support or oppose the Law of Return, ie, that all Jewish people around the world can come to Israel and receive citizenship?

    Does he support armed Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation today, or at least think it was justified in the past? Does he think Hamas has the right to exist as a legitimate political part in Palestine, even if it refuses to recognize Israel and refuses to disarm (or even stop rocket attacks)? Does he think that the notion of a "Jewish state" - even one that promises equal rights to non-Jewish citizens (which may not be the case in practice but I am talking theoretically here) - is racist?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    This isn't to excuse Jeremy Corbyn, who is a decade older than me and presumably ought to know better (or at least be better advised), but if I had come across that mural, I wouldn't have picked up anti-Semitic overtones from it. I would have seen it as opposing elderly-white-male-capitalism.

    To me one of those seated round the monopoly board looks like Putin, and two of the others look like Bush senior and junior. The noses didn't register with me at all (but then I come from a family with large noses). When it is pointed out to me, I can see that it is intended to be anti-semitic, but it takes me more than a quick glance.

    ISTM that it's a kind of dog-whistle propaganda - evident to those in the know, but bypassing the rest of us.
  • I agree that Corbyn was an idiot, if he approved that mural without realizing its anti-Semitic nature.
    I think what we are seeing with Corbyn is a symptom of privilege. It allows a blindness not given to those without it. Followed by a the typical political dance to re-frame the problem.

    Not defending him, he should have seen the mural for what it is in the first place.

  • As per BroJames, it took me a while to realize how that mural is anti-Semitic, at first, it just looked like old white guys.

    I know that the pro-Palestinian movement has some strange bed-fellows, including anti-Semites and holocaust deniers, plus probably jihadists. Well, if you are going to consort with such movements, you need a very good radar, and also staff with similar. In fact, as a party leader, you need to keep a good distance from such movements, but I think Corbyn would refuse to do that, I mean the main pro-Palestinian groups. I admire him for that, but he is rather blind and insensitive.
  • mdijonmdijon Shipmate
    When confronted with someone who is blind to their prejudice, it's a common tactic to liken their acceptable prejudice to another that they would find unacceptable. (e.g. "So if it's OK to make those sorts of general statements about Muslims would it be OK to say that about Jews?"). As a very general trend, I find that with leftward politics one often asks the speaker to think about how it would sound if they replaced "Jewish people" with "Black people". And for more rightward politics one asks the opposite - about how the statement about "Black people" would sound if it was about "Jewish people".

    Of course there are some political sub-groups neither statement evokes any sense of embarrassment.
  • The pyramid with the eye appears on American money. Looking it up ("pyramid with eye on to") says this is the "eye of providence". I've never really understood this, won't claim to. I can read it as anti-Semitic, anti-capitalist, anti-American, and all of these at once.

    Who did the mural? Did they intend satire? Directed at whom, whether satire or not? And what it the physical location of it, i.e., where is it? It looks like it is outside perhaps on a building and has been defaced with a graffiti.

    Is the mural and this political leader's post - do they pose the same problem?
  • Helpful link was provided by the OP.

  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    I've always thought that if I were in charge of pro-Palestinian PR I'd have a ruthlessly deployed zero tolerance policy, not just on moral grounds, but on the grounds that you really want to be talking about the realities of the occupation, not whether or not your people are anti-Semitic. I don't think that the entirety of the people who support the Palestinians are anti-Semitic but I think that there are a minority who are and a sizeable group who see no ships because the minority are sound on Palestinian rights and it's always difficult to disavow one's allies. Corbyn's reluctance to throw his allies under a bus is personally admirable, but frankly, if you want to be Prime Minister then you have to start calculating as to who might best serve the cause under the wheels of the Clapham Omnibus.

    Let's take an analogy that Jews and Israelis find deeply offensive. Let's look at Apartheid. Apartheid ended because Nelson Mandela and F. W. De Klerk sat down and agreed the status quo couldn't continue indefinitely and worked out a way to find a settlement which, whilst perhaps not ideal, met the aspirations, on some level, of the various communities in South Africa. If Mandela had insisted on 'one settler, one bullet' and the anti-Apartheid movement had adopted "you'll never meet a nice South African" as it's anthem of choice, I think Mandela would have died on Robben Island. When Mandela died he was hailed as a Holy Saint of God, by people who had hitherto regarded him as a terrorist and an agent of Moscow. Some of this was complete humbug, but it also represented the fact that people were terrified that black majority rule would lead to a one party state and a reign of terror and, thanks to Mandela, it didn't, and people were duly grateful.

    If you are negotiating from a position of weakness, as the black South Africans were and the Palestinians are you do need to give the impression that any concessions given won't be the prelude to some kind of pogrom, particularly if the people you are dealing with have extensive experience of pogroms and no desire to go back to the bad old days. The pro-Israeli right tend to get terribly worked up about the far left and it's anti-Israel animus. I can't see why. If I thought that Mossad had the kind of nefarious reach that some people think it has, I'd wonder if they weren't behind the whole thing, given how counter-productive it is. As it is the whole thing reminds me of Robert Conquest's dictum that some organisations behave as if they were controlled by a cabal of their mortal enemies.
  • This whole thing is pretty murky - in the confusion of daily life in the West Bank, rumours proliferate and there are many lies and stupid, uneducated views.

    On some level it is understandable, given the history, the life experiences, the ongoing bitterness etc. If the only Jew you ever see is the one pointing a gun at your grandmother, then it is understandable that you might believe bad shit about Jews.

    But, on the whole, Palestinians are absent from Western conversations on the left-wing, so I can't see that even the wide acceptance of nonsense and conspiracy by Palestinians explains this. Proxies instead speak on behalf of the absent Palestinian, too often importing ignorant and unacceptable views in the name of solidarity.

    The main problem is that almost anyone can set themselves up as a mouthpiece of Palestinian solidarity. The main groups have been grappling to remove the morons, but they simply pop-up elsewhere spouting the same nonsense.
  • But then I've often thought that Palestinians are sometimes a convenient victim for those on the left - to be paraded around and whipped out at various moments.

    Of course, it certainly isn't helped that the conflict is asymmetrical and that Israel certainly is investing a lot of money in a counter narrative and PR offensive.

    But then I think this particular moment in British socialism is not really about Palestinians. It isn't really about Israel.

    These are British Jews who are legitimately complaining about home-grown anti-Semitism.
  • I thought we were talking about a mural and a politician?
  • Unfortunately these things get complicated very quickly. And he's not just "a politician", he's the leader of the opposition with a good chance of getting power in the UK if the current minority government falls.
  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    By the way - unhellishly - I've crossed swords with Mr Cheesy on this issue before, and props to him for raising it and taking the line he has.
  • I think there have been many incidents of anti-Semitism within the Labour party, and some of them haven't been dealt with well. Where I am suspicious is that some people seem to be leveraging people's (justified) fear and anger about those incidents to try and pin the blame on Corbyn and undermine him for political reasons. Some Jews clearly feel safe in the Labour Party and some (perhaps more) don't, and that seems to divide largely on ideological lines, which ought to give us pause before assuming the narrative being created in the press is entirely correct. Part of the difficulty is that the left/right split in Labour runs along largely the same fault line as support for the Palestinians/support for Israel and runs right through the party from student politics on up. I was on the periphery of student politics 15 years ago and the same names that are now junior MPs on the right of the party (Wes Streeting, Luciana Berger) and on the left (Cat Smith) were fighting much the same battles as Labour Students and/or Union of Jewish Students vs Student Broad Left and/or Jewish Students for Justice for Palestinians. It's the same battles being fought with the same rhetoric only now it's in and around parliament rather than in NUS.

    For what it's worth with regard to the mural I don't think I'd have picked up on the anti-Semitic undertones unless I'd been told to look for them, though it's understandable that Jewish people have more sensitive antennae for this sort of thing than I do. Apparently only 2 of the 6 figures (who are specific bankers rather than generic stereotypes) are Jews but that's largely moot as the artist's comments blaming Jews for its removal basically pour petrol on that fire.
  • The main media in UK is getting very confused. bWreck-Zit supporters all, Right wing pro Tory mostly, therefore anti Corbyn, anti Labour, (but, hold on, labour also supports bWreck-Zit), but pro Jewish is good too at the moment because that's anti Corbyn, but ExitBrexit are traitors, but then some of them are Tory, which media supports, and some of Labour are pro bWreck-zit which is good, but they are Labour which is anti Tory, which is bad, and we just don't know exactly what everyone wants us to write about anymore, so they might not buy our newspapers, if they really disagree with what we say, but we have got to keep the Tories in power, to continue to bWreck-zit, and oppose by whatever means possible a referendum to REALLY find out what people actually think, because we can't actually afford anyone to actually find that out, until we are safely out whether its what the people actually want now or not, and we must keep the Tory Government in at any cost. If the Daily Tory Mail Male is attacking Corbyn for being anti Semitic, then it has seriously changed its tune from what it pushed out in 1937-39. My, my how times have changed.

    Is it possible to study politics anymore or has everyone given up trying to find out the truth.
  • I don't know enough about the internal workings of the Labour party to agree or disagree with @Arethosemyfeet - however it is, in my view, an undeniable truth that the Socialist Worker Party has well known and ongoing issues with anti-Semitism. And, as far as I can tell they're pretty close to people in Momentum.

    The amazing thing to witness is lines of people queuing up to defend Corbyn when these things are indefensible.

    I am astonished that anyone can look at this mural and not immediately see anti-Semitism. It is nothing about "2 out of the 6" being Jews - it's a meme. The meme says that there are a small corrupt group of men who control the world, dividing the spoils over a round table.

    Unsurprisingly these have facial features associated with Jews.

    If you can't see that as a throwback of Nazi-era anti-Semitism then learn fast.

    Where have you been? Seriously, what did you think this mural was about.

    And before you say "bankers", remember that this is also code for Jews.
  • @RdrEmCofE I don't think you even need to go that far back to see the Telegraph and Mail dogwhistling.

    As Jonathan Freedland writes today in the Guardian, witness how Soros and Ralph Miliband were described by the Tory media. I don't usually agree with much of what he says, but today he is on point.


  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    This isn't to excuse Jeremy Corbyn, who is a decade older than me and presumably ought to know better (or at least be better advised), but if I had come across that mural, I wouldn't have picked up anti-Semitic overtones from it. I would have seen it as opposing elderly-white-male-capitalism.

    To me one of those seated round the monopoly board looks like Putin, and two of the others look like Bush senior and junior. The noses didn't register with me at all (but then I come from a family with large noses). When it is pointed out to me, I can see that it is intended to be anti-semitic, but it takes me more than a quick glance.

    ISTM that it's a kind of dog-whistle propaganda - evident to those in the know, but bypassing the rest of us.

    I've seen conspiracy theorists use things like the Eye Of Providence and other tropes without seeming to realize the possible anti-semitic implications. The Eye IS a symbol of Freemasonry(often a dog-whistle for Jews), but as mentioned, it's also a symbol of US money.

    But combined with the image of a bunch of old guys sitting around a table controlling the world, well, that should have set off a few alarm bells in Corbyn's head, especially given his history on the Trotskyist left, where people would be quite familiar with the anti-Jewish propaganda used by Stalinists against their faction.

  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    When you look at the responses from Mr Corbyn you need to remember that his Director of Communications & Strategy is Seumas Milne, and Mr Corbyn has all along defended Mr Milne when in the past he has been accused (as has JC, come to that) of being supportive of terrorist organisations.

    The elephant in the room is Hamas which, just in case you need reminding, is a proscribed terrorist organisation. This is the Hamas that has in its original Charter this:

    The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised."

    Even Amnesty International has investigated Hamas and describes it as being guilty of "a brutal campaign of abductions, torture and unlawful killings against Palestinians" and says that Hamas has committed War Crimes - the victims of such crimes, of course, being Jews.

    Is anyone still surprised that Mr Corbyn seems relaxed to be accused of anti-semitism? I don't think he cares one jot for anything other than perhaps some lost Jewish community votes, and less that maybe than we realise because he can do the calculation that those votes can (probably will) be replaced with some from the muslim community who find anti-semitism attractive.
  • Oh, look: The Organist is foaming at the mouth from Corbyn-hate again.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    I don't hate Mr C. I just have little time for someone who behaves like a weasel. He was a weasel when he was my local councillor and he's a weasel now.
  • This has nothing to do with Hamas. How about sticking to the point.
  • [Mr Cheesy] I don't think you even need to go that far back to see the Telegraph and Mail dogwhistling.

    I know but back before WW2 the Daily Mail was not 'silent dog-whistling' it was blatantly and openly preaching antisemitism and promoting pro-Nazi views.
  • I don't hate Mr C. I just have little time for someone who behaves like a weasel. He was a weasel when he was my local councillor and he's a weasel now.

    Right, right. The person you're calling an anti-Semite because he has in the past spoken to people who are, and the person you're now calling a weasel. No hate there at all. What exactly do you say when you hate someone?
  • I live in a country which was inhabited for more than 50,000 years by its first peoples. That is greater by 45,000 years than any archaeological evidence for post-Canaanite (ie Jewish) settlement in what is now Palestine/the 20thC state of Israel. A little over 200 years ago, European invaders settled the continent and have largely displaced and certainly marginalised its first peoples.
    Let's imagine that a latter day Balfour declares that anyone who came here 200 years ago or more recently has to be uprooted and their property and possessions restored to the remnant of our first peoples. Let's further imagine that refugee camps are set up for the arrivistes on undeveloped Pacific islands (never! Who could imagine such a thing!). And the United Nations lends its support to this restoration, and any poor householder who resists is labelled a terrorist.
    Now you see, or more probably you don't, why the Balfour Declaration and its implementation has been a disaster of unfathomable proportion. The year I was born saw the enforced exile of a land's legitimate owners in two places, Palestine and the Indian sub continent.
    Not long before I was born, the Stern Gang was shooting British soldiers in the back, and stringing wires across roads to decapitate them, and blowing up their wives and children, while those soldiers' colleagues were laying down their lives in Europe to rescue the Stern Gang's supposed confrères from Hitler's camps.
    We may be no more able to undo 1947's unjust and unjustified mistakes than we are 1770's, but let's not pretend that informed criticism of the disastrous creation of the State of Israel on Palestinians' land is anti-Semitic.
  • This particular incident has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine. It is to do with anti-Semitism in the UK and complaints by British Jews.
  • I'll have sympathy for the poor dears when they stand against their so-called Homeland's (where did we hear that before in connection with countries to the east of 1930s Germany?) international crimes. You might say that many do, and you'd be right. But nowhere near enough of 'em and nowhere forcefully enough. So their feelings are hurt by a mis-interpreted street artist, or by a plonker of a British Labour leader. In the meanwhile.
    There is no moral equivalence, and until Jewish leaders stop pretending that there is, what you call anti-semitism and what a disinterested observer would call resistance will continue.
  • Demanding individual Jews atone for the crimes of Israel is pretty anti-Semitic in itself.
  • Thankyou for your cogent and unreflexive reply, which demonstrates your deep understanding of atonement theory.
  • Not all Jews are Israeli, not all Israelis are Jews. Not all Jews support Israel right-or-wrong, not all are Zionist.

    To conflate these things is quite childish: no Jew needs to atone for the sons of "their homeland" simply because they are a Jew.

    Get a clue.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No, FD, I can't agree with you. There's nothing in that mural to suggest support for the Palestinians' cause. None of the characters appears Palestinian, while the central half-dozen pick up on the nastiest anti-semitic stereotypes. Can't see the linkage between the near-genocidal treatment of the ancient peoples here (and modern refugees for that matter) and what this painter is doing.

    BTW, a very good example of the anti-semitism of many on the left is the behaviour of the Greens in the former local council in Sydney's Marrickville. That council took it upon itself to run an anti-Israeli foreign policy (a local council with a foreign policy!) while voters persuaded Jewish business owners to move elsewhere.
  • Thinking globally and acting locally is pretty standard left-wing thought, so there is nothing surprising or anti-Semitic about e.g. a local council refusing to spend money on Israeli goods or services. What precisely were the alleged anti-Semitic actions?
  • I think there is clearly something very bad happening if campaigning against Israel's actions in Gaza leads to statements by a local authority and discrimination against local Jewish businesses.

    Unless those businesses were selling arms to Israel, this seems like a no-brainer to me.

    'king Nora, what is wrong with you? Local Jews are not proxies for Israel.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »

    'king Nora, what is wrong with you? Local Jews are not proxies for Israel.

    Oh, I assumed that it was voters opposed to the council persuading Jewish business owners to leave and take their businesses with them to undermine the council. If it was people boycotting local Jewish businesses as a proxy for Israeli then, quite simply, fuck that and the horse it rode in on.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thinking globally and acting locally is pretty standard left-wing thought, so there is nothing surprising or anti-Semitic about e.g. a local council refusing to spend money on Israeli goods or services. What precisely were the alleged anti-Semitic actions?

    A first point: the Greens party here started from groups formed to protect local forests, wildlife - and in the most famous and successful incident, a wild river. By the turn of the century, many still supported the party because of action of that sort. At that time, the party was moved to the left with an influx of well-prepared Trots and ex-communists. that great tension still exists. The Greens in the inner-city area of Sydney (I can't speak of other cities) came to be dominated by that trend. The resultant tensions burst forth from time to time. It is these newcomers who bring anti-semitism to the party.

    I'd have thought that persuading local Jewish business people to move was pretty clear anti-semitic action. That's the sort of thing that the local Greens supporters were doing. The persuasion was not the sort that happens over a quiet cup of tea. And as a general proposition, what is not anti-semitic about refusing to spend money on Israeli goods and services because they are Israeli? Again, I'd think that refusing to do business with local businesses because they were owned by Jewish people was anti-semitic.

    A general comment - local councils are established under State legislation to carry out the range of tasks allotted them. Running foreign policy is not one of those.
  • Tommyrot. I'm not familiar with the situation which Gee D describes, but if local Jewish businesses don't dissociate themselves from the Israeli state's unlawful and unprophetic ("What does YHWH require from you?") actions, then they should be shunned just as a Halal butcher should be who doesn't condemn the actions of Daesh or Saudi Arabia.
  • I will also say this: randomly boycotting individual Jews and/or Israelis "to support Palestinians" is a nonsense.

    All exporting Palestinian businesses, and a large number of non-exporters have ties to Israeli businesses by necessity.

    If nothing else, by boycotting Israeli businesses, you are very likely impoverishing the very people you say you are trying to help.

    But this argument, backed up by all the trade statistics from the Palestinian Authority itself makes zero impact. Once people want to blame someone, they lose any ability to use their critical faculties and think about the obvious impacts of what they are doing.
  • Despite what the Israeli government would like you to believe Israel =/= Jews. Boycotting Israeli goods (or more specifically those from settlements) is a valid approach to influencing the behaviour of the Israeli government, just as the cultural boycotts of South Africa were a valid approach to influencing the Apartheid regime. Going after local Jewish businesses is clearly anti-Semitic (if you read my response to mr. cheesy I misunderstood your description of events).
  • Tommyrot. I'm not familiar with the situation which Gee D describes, but if local Jewish businesses don't dissociate themselves from the Israeli state's unlawful and unprophetic ("What does YHWH require from you?") actions, then they should be shunned just as a Halal butcher should be who doesn't condemn the actions of Daesh or Saudi Arabia.

    Oh shut up man. What the fuck are you talking about.

    Are you out of your tiny mind?

    Do you go around campaigning and talking to Chinese or Turks or Saudis in this way?

    Do you not appreciate that these people in your locality might actually be there because if the dangers of speaking up in their own countries.

    For fucks sake grow a brain.
  • Foaming DraughtFoaming Draught Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Another reasoned reply which displays @mr cheesy's immense breadth of experience and knowledge (I doubt that he's been further than Basingstoke in his life). Wow, I'm privileged that Shipmates should share these keen insights with me.
  • Yeah well you are wrong about that as well.

    How does it feel to be this stupid?
  • Foaming DraughtFoaming Draught Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    How does it feel to be this stupid?

    We’re waiting sympathetically for you to tell us.

  • It's worth pointing out that the BDS movement is at the request of the Palestinians themselves, despite the potential economic impact.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited March 2018

    We’re waiting sympathetically for you to tell us.

    Ok yeah - please tell us how many times you've visited producers in Palestine, how long you've been held by border guards at Ben Gurion and the Allenby bridge. Then tell us how much of your own money you've invested in projects seeking to address Palestinian poverty. Then tell us how many years you've spend looking at maps and trade statistics, how many Jews you know from the Palestinian solidarity groups and how many marches you've been on where there have been heated discussions about anti-Semitism of certain groups.

    Yeah, when you've done all that we can talk about who is being stupid here.

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