Here's tae us, wha's like us

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  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    ... That’s the traditional tune here—and it’s on my “funeral list.” ...
    It's on D's as well - he may be an Anglican from the cradle, but having worked for nine years in the Church of Scotland, he loves a good metrical psalm!

    One of the joys of driving through certain parts of Scotland is when the names on road-signs trigger the singing of psalms - Kilmarnock, Glasgow, Dundee, Edinburgh ...

    I must stop before I start feeling homesick. :cry:
  • I've just flicked through the C of S facebook photos of Day 2. I appreciate that there were a number of photos of the Boys Brigade which affects the statistics, but of the 37 photos representing Day 2, 26 were of all male groups or individuals, 7 were mostly male groups, 3 were mixed and one showed two women waving from a window.

    Excluding the Boys Brigade shots, there were 15 all male groups, 7 mostly male, 3 mixed and 1 all female (the two waving women).

    It jars.
  • I've gone back to the C of S facebook page photos from Day 1. 36 photos.

    Mixed - 15
    Mostly male group- 14
    All male group - 5
    Mostly female group -2
    All female -0

    I'm actually surprised, since my impression yesterday was of a lot of female representation (Susan Brown and Nicola Sturgeon) but when I went back to look again the men are in greater evidence.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Shipmate
    edited May 19
    Cathscats - do you know who the two women waving from the window are? One is holding a camera, and so it looks as though the sole all-female image, out of 73, depicts women in the role of admiring onlookers, but I'm willing to be corrected.

    ETA - actually, I'm desperate to be corrected!
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Please tell me that the mostly-female group wasn't the ladies making the tea ... :disappointed:
  • One of the "mostly female" was a group in the gallery wearing "visitor" badges; I think they are the wife, daughters and son-in-law of the new Moderator. The second "mostly female" was a group in the corridor - four women and three men.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Sorry, I don't do Church of Scotlanf Facebook! You have to draw the line somewhere! I did try to find the pictures you are talking about, but couldn't. If you could send a link I might be able to see what they show.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Shipmate
    edited May 19
    ....
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    ???
  • Sorry, not sure what I did wrong there.
  • 72 photos from Heart and Soul are now on the FB page and they are a much better representation of what I think of as my C of S. Photos of lively, engaged, enthusiastic people, male, female, young, old. I am no longer in a grump.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    That's good. I talked myself hoarse at Heart and Soul, about Lath of Renewal and found that many people were interested in hearing about an intentional way to renew purpose and faith in their congregations.

    We begin at 9.15 with communion today. Obviously I will not post during that but if anyone wants to see what somepeple (not me, actually) think is the best thing about the GA then follow on the Church of Scotland website. It is certainly impressive. Not sure about one of the hymns we will sing though. I know certain Shipoies are allergic to Stuart Townend's "How deep the Father's love for us"!
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    OK getting down to it now. This is going to be the report of the special commission on structural change and so it is where the rubber should begin to hit the road.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    First I drawn breath, as one voice from the floor asks if now is the time to reconsider the Presbyterian form of church government! Oh my!!
  • That I suspect would not only require much consultation in churches and discussion in Presbyteries and GA, but also one or more Acts of Parliament!
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Certainly as usual the Queen's letter promised to uphold Presbyterian government in the CofS. Raising the question "What has it to do with her?" She is not head of the CofS.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    In the context of discussion a former Moderator suggests that we change the line in "Abide with me" from "change and decay" to "change OR decay." Up the nonogenarians! (Is that the word?)
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    Certainly as usual the Queen's letter promised to uphold Presbyterian government in the CofS. Raising the question "What has it to do with her?" She is not head of the CofS.
    And how exactly might she uphold it? I hardly expect her to summon the Prime Minister (or, for that matter, the Archbishop of Canterbury) to Balmoral and say, "I hear that you're wanting to get rid of Presbyterianism in the CofS. I tell you now, I will not stand for it!" (Presumably the ghost of John Knox will be whispering in her ear).

  • Wet KipperWet Kipper Shipmate
    yesterday I saw a sign outside a church in Dundee which said "Jesus is looking for sinners" with a picture of a pair of binoculars.

    I went past the same thing on Friday on my way up to Arbroath for our church men's weekend.
    It seemed to be a billboard upon a trailer which presumably the church drives around various neighbourhoods touting for business

    I was driving, so could not pay attention, but my passenger remarked that from the name of the church/congregation on the sign he was unsure of the "orthodoxy" or established nature of the church (his exact words were less diplomatic).

    Further research now reveals it to be the "RCCG House of Praise", a parish of the "Redeemed Christian Church of God"

    https://rccghopdundee.org/
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Top table seems to be very much at sea. Faces of the two former Principal Clerks who are in the hall are a picture!
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Why did I think that the report on structural reform, which will have far reaching effects on the ground, would spawn a wide-ranging inspirational debate? Hope, I suppose. Hope has been trumped by experience.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Hmm. IME people tend to focus on the little things they can comprehend (especially if in relation to situations they know), rather than big picture discussions with ramifications they are unsure of.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Anyway it got through.....
  • CofS FB page photos Day 3. 10 photos - 6 all male, 1 mixed, 1 mostly female and one of a woman polishing the communion silver. (The 10th was a photo of the bread).

    The all male photos are completely acceptable as they all show the men who are leading communion. But if you are going to have only one photo of a woman, why have her polishing silver? At least she's not ironing the tablecloths.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    It was a pretty male day. So far this has been quite a masculine event, so the photos might be representative. Today the convener presenting the Radical Action Plan is Sally Bonar, not only female but an elder, so they had better have pictures of her. (After last year's mauling, she is looking forward to today being over, she tells me - not surprised.). Not sure how radical (from the roots) the plan is but sensibly this year each item stands alone, so voting down one won't scupper all the rest.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    OK we are under way. Worship has been held, the scripture has been read in Gaelic, the ad hoc choir has sung a piece whose words could not be distinguished, and the genre of which seemed at odds with their comfort zones, and Sally is on her feel to present the Action Plan.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Now discussing presbytery reform, reducing the number of presbyteries in Scotland from over 40 to 12. Since this is where real changes will make a real difference to how we work, it is generating a lot of discussion.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Reduction of presbyteries to around 12 in the next 5 years has gone through. So I just hope the bit that says that money and personnel are to be devolved to them also passes.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Currently hearing how the Presbytery of Shetland has become a parish, which will become part of Aberdeen presbytery. Inspirational.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Getting in a real frankly over finance and congregations contributions...
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Currently hearing how the Presbytery of Shetland has become a parish, which will become part of Aberdeen presbytery. Inspirational.
    I’m glad something inspirational has arrived!
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Getting in a real frankly over finance and congregations contributions...
    “Real frankly”?

  • I think Cathscats spellcheck doesn't recognise "fankle" Nick.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Yes, and I was getting up, letting people past and posting at the same time. Norris. Nuts getting underway again. We ended with the Assembly making the low growly noise it makes when it disagrees with the Moderator, who was trying to push something through before lunch. See if we start in better mood.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Back to thinking about the effectiveness of the Presbyterian system. Not just a suggestion and indrawn breath this time, but a full-blown deliverance (we call thing s to be voted on deliverances, don't know why, but I assume it is asking that we be delivered from inaction!).

    Apparently we have not considered this for 70 years, and since everything is up for potential change this year, why not this?
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    It is being supported by the theological forum. The next reformation is at hand (except that the proposal is that it is looked into and reported on in a tar or two).
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    We are feeling radical, properly radical. Long may it last....
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Commission to look into Presbyterianism is agreed.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Well, after potentially beginning the next Scottish reformation, we are now dealing with the world mission and hearing moving stories from overseas visitors, especially those from Pakistan and Egypt. Makes other things look like first world problems.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 21
    Cathscats, can you unpack a little exactly what is contemplated as “thinking about the effectiveness of the Presbyterian system” or “look[ing] into Presbyterianism”? Or link to a report, if that’s easier?
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    There is no report, because this was proposed from the floor of the GA, unexpectedly (and I gather considerable pressure was put on the proposer not to bring it). The background is that we have been considering two reports about general restructuring of the CofS (available at https://ga.churchofscotland.org.uk/publications (hope this is a good link). The reports in question are that of the Council of Assembly, found in the Blue Book and that of the Special Commission On Structural Reform, found in the Order of Proceedings at page 40 onwards. If you go to the CofS main page you can access summaries of what has been discussed and decided.

    Anyway, the proposal to look into Presbyterianism came in the context of many root and branch procedural reforms, designed to free the church for mission, and the suggestion was that it might just be that in the 21st century Presbyterianism, or maybe Presbyterianism as it has developed in Scotland, might no longer be the best way for a missional church to be governed.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Currently hearing how the Presbytery of Shetland has become a parish, which will become part of Aberdeen presbytery. Inspirational.
    Will the same happen to Orkney?

    When I saw your post about the drastic reduction in the number of presbyteries, my first thought was "what about the islands?" Will it make a big difference being part of a presbytery on a different piece of rock?

    Disclaimer - I've never been involved in the governance side of the CofS, and while I no longer live in Scotland, I'm still officially a member, as the Cathedral wouldn't let us "lift our lines" when we left ("You'll still be coming back on holiday, won't you?").
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Thanks, Cathscat!
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    @Piglet there is a lot to be worked out for everywhere, not just Orkney. Shetland is head of the curve, and, as I say seems to have come out the other side motivated and is prepared to do more and be better, so we live in hope. Shetland had already reached absolute crisis state before this happened. The whole CofS is really in that state, but it is not so obvious to the membership, especially in urban areas, because on the whole members don't look beyond their own congregation to see what is sustaining them.

    By the way, having your lines somewhere means very little. We no longer pay dues based on membership but on average income. I should think that formal membership will be one of the things to go in the next decade, as it is those who worship and work in the churches who really could, and, like yourselves, many of them are not really CofS. Unlike yourselves (because you are far away) many do the faithful "being local church" thing without joining in a formal sense. The only difference this makes is that they can't be made elders (but I still invite several of those I have in that position to come to Session meetings, which are public unless they have private matters to discuss).
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Off we go again. Worship is over and Nicola Sturgeon who is in attendance has been asked to address the assembly. We will see what she has to say.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Kindness, dignity and compassion should be as important for government ministers as for parish ministers.... But she admits that First Ministers Questions later today might not show this.

    We all have the responsibility to resist being divisive, while still holding robust debate. The Gov. will bring together a citizens' assembly to debate divisive issues.

    And lots of things from the past she brings up to make the Kirk feel good about itself.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Church and Society council now calling the UK Home Office to task re asylum seekers and immigration.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Shipmate
    edited May 22
    Excellent!

    If there was ever a country which should understand having to leave your beloved home and create a new life elsewhere it should be Scotland. There are bits of Scottish culture worldwide and plenty of opportunities here in Scotland for immigrants and asylum seekers to create a fused identity of Scottish / something else.

  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Big discussion about fossil fuel divestment AND renewable investment. I was about to speak, but someone else said it for me! Hooray!!
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Of course we have been told that we are influencing oil companies and cannot do so if we have nothing invested in them. And we are told of hardship in the oil industry at lower levels. It's the big picture versus the small picture. Watch this space....
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Too close to call, electronic vote called for.
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