Lessons vs Readings

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  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Agreed, but is that the way to do so?
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    How else? People ask me how to... so I tell them.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Hmm. I think the style and tone implied by
    And woe betide anytone (sic)…
    is rather more than is suggested by
    People ask me how to... so I tell them.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    yohan300 wrote: »
    I am sure it doesn't matter one bit. This was however the first cathedral where I have experienced a reading instead of a lesson, and it just got me wondering why. Someone somewhere must have sat down and thought "hmmm, calling these lessons simply won't do, from now on in this cathedral we shall do things differently and call them readings". I am just intrigued as to what their rationale was.
    Well, you could also do a Google search to find out what is actually meant by ‘lesson.’ And if you do so, you might stumble upon this Wiktionary entry. And there you see that ‘lesson’ - the way its used in the liturgy - actually just means ‘reading.’ In this liturgical context ‘lesson’ and ‘reading’ means the same thing. ‘Lesson’ is here used in its old meaning, from the Middle English lessoun, which comes from the Old French leçon, from the Latin lēctiō, lēctiōnem (“a reading”), from legō (“I read, I gather”). I think you’re reading to much into this.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    But accurate though all that is, the common meaning of lession has changed. Reading is just as accurate and conforms to the modern understanding. The cathedral is just bringing things up-to-date.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    To take this a step further, when I was a mere lad, all those years ago (and it was a long time) we had lessons at school but the small number who went on to uni then had lectures, with obviously the same derivative) and tutorials.
  • The word used in liturgical German for 'Reading' is 'Lesung' (just like lesson) and the word used in liturgical French is 'lecture'.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    But accurate though all that is, the common meaning of lession has changed. Reading is just as accurate and conforms to the modern understanding. The cathedral is just bringing things up-to-date.
    Yes, that was my point. Changing it to 'reading' is proper as it is exactly what was meant by 'lesson.'
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    Forthview wrote: »
    The word used in liturgical German for 'Reading' is 'Lesung' (just like lesson) and the word used in liturgical French is 'lecture'.
    Yes, and in Norwegian 'reading' (noun) is 'lesing.'
  • CarysCarys Shipmate Posts: 25
    yohan300 wrote: »
    I am sure it doesn't matter one bit. This was however the first cathedral where I have experienced a reading instead of a lesson, and it just got me wondering why. Someone somewhere must have sat down and thought "hmmm, calling these lessons simply won't do, from now on in this cathedral we shall do things differently and call them readings". I am just intrigued as to what their rationale was.

    There might have been a conscious decision or there might not. It may well be that both are used interchangeably.

    I think I announced the "first lesson" on Wednesday night but I can't definitely remember; I know, however, that I ended it "This is the Word of the Lord" which was met with stunned silence. I have no idea why I did this. At some point during the reading "Here ends the first lesson" had been in my mind, but then there was what seemed like stunned silence and I replayed what I had said and why I'd expected a response, realised what I'd done and turned and bowed to the altar and returned to my place feeling slightly embarrassed.

    Carys
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    kmann wrote: »
    Forthview wrote: »
    The word used in liturgical German for 'Reading' is 'Lesung' (just like lesson) and the word used in liturgical French is 'lecture'.
    Yes, and in Norwegian 'reading' (noun) is 'lesing.'
    kmann wrote: »
    Forthview wrote: »
    The word used in liturgical German for 'Reading' is 'Lesung' (just like lesson) and the word used in liturgical French is 'lecture'.
    Yes, and in Norwegian 'reading' (noun) is 'lesing.'

    Thank you both - interesting how close the Germanic and Scandinavian are to the derivative from Latin. I was going to say that when the derivative was being worked out, the northern languages from some settlers influenced the outcome, but then there is leçon in French.
  • Yesterday at Festal Evensong (BCP) at the Cathedral, after much incense had been used, ( not sure of the correct verb, as this is not within my comfort zone), the Dean announced the second lesson using informal language, including the word “ reading” and “ taken from” , with a brief intro as to the context, just a phrase. I am not sure which version was used but it was not the King James’ Version.
    Incongruously, the Dean closed with “Here endeth the second lesson” .
    Admittedly I was there for the music, which was superb.
  • Some of yous live in another world to me.

    In our church quite a few of the readers can't really read fluently; when they do, they do so in very heavily accented English; but OK, they're asked to do it and they step up. Without the announcement of book, chapter, verse and page in the pew bible, no-one would have a hope of following it.

    If one were to exclude such (senior, in all senses) readers or attempt to get them to improve, all hell would break loose, quite rightly.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    I can only speak for my congregation. We begin by saying "A reading from (whatever Book of the Bible)." We conclude with "The Word of the Lord." Congregational Response is "Thanks be to God."
  • On announcing readings, I'm sure I heard Revelation referred to as The Apocalypse at one place. It seemed more dramatic. I have a feeling it was a Catholic church.
  • 'Apocalypse' is the name which is generally,but not always,used by Catholics,for the book which is usually called 'Revelations' by many Protestants.
  • Thank you, Forthview.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited October 2018
    Sometimes called ‘Revelations’, but usually (and more properly) called ‘Revelation’.

    ‘Apocalypse’ is the Greek-root word for which ‘Revelation’ is the Latin-root equivalent.
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    On announcing readings, I'm sure I heard Revelation referred to as The Apocalypse at one place. It seemed more dramatic. I have a feeling it was a Catholic church.

    That's its proper title.
  • Eclesiastical FipfopEclesiastical Fipfop Shipmate Posts: 43
    Forthview wrote: »
    The word used in liturgical German for 'Reading' is 'Lesung' (just like lesson) and the word used in liturgical French is 'lecture'.

    Equally, in Italian, the word is 'Lettura' and I suppose, in Spanish, it is 'Lectura' - all this being 'a false friend' to our English word 'Lecture'. The equivalent word to our word of 'Conference' is used for 'Lecture' in those languages.

    The German 'Lesung' comes from 'Lesen' - 'to read.

  • Puzzler wrote: »
    Yesterday at Festal Evensong (BCP) at the Cathedral, after much incense had been used, ( not sure of the correct verb, as this is not within my comfort zone)...

    Incense is usually offered, although it is perfectly acceptable to refer to it being raised.
    Forthview wrote: »
    'Apocalypse' is the name which is generally,but not always,used by Catholics,for the book which is usually called 'Revelations' by many Protestants.

    It's usually referred to as the Apocalypse among the Orthodox too, although it's common among English-speaking converts for the terminology of their past homes to be retained. So you will find Orthodox parishes where there's a culture of referring to "Revelation", "The Lord's Prayer", &c. Certainly, when the book is read in church, it is the Apocalypse.
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    Yesterday at Festal Evensong (BCP) at the Cathedral, after much incense had been used, ( not sure of the correct verb, as this is not within my comfort zone)...

    Incense is usually offered, although it is perfectly acceptable to refer to it being raised.
    Forthview wrote: »
    'Apocalypse' is the name which is generally,but not always,used by Catholics,for the book which is usually called 'Revelations' by many Protestants.

    It's usually referred to as the Apocalypse among the Orthodox too, although it's common among English-speaking converts for the terminology of their past homes to be retained. So you will find Orthodox parishes where there's a culture of referring to "Revelation", "The Lord's Prayer", &c. Certainly, when the book is read in church, it is the Apocalypse.

    Isn't the etymology of apocalypse from the Greek word for Revelation?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Yes
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    Yesterday at Festal Evensong (BCP) at the Cathedral, after much incense had been used, ( not sure of the correct verb, as this is not within my comfort zone)...

    Incense is usually offered, although it is perfectly acceptable to refer to it being raised.
    Forthview wrote: »
    'Apocalypse' is the name which is generally,but not always,used by Catholics,for the book which is usually called 'Revelations' by many Protestants.

    It's usually referred to as the Apocalypse among the Orthodox too, although it's common among English-speaking converts for the terminology of their past homes to be retained. So you will find Orthodox parishes where there's a culture of referring to "Revelation", "The Lord's Prayer", &c. Certainly, when the book is read in church, it is the Apocalypse.

    Isn't the etymology of apocalypse from the Greek word for Revelation?

    We've done this. ;)
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    Yesterday at Festal Evensong (BCP) at the Cathedral, after much incense had been used, ( not sure of the correct verb, as this is not within my comfort zone)...

    Incense is usually offered, although it is perfectly acceptable to refer to it being raised.
    Forthview wrote: »
    'Apocalypse' is the name which is generally,but not always,used by Catholics,for the book which is usually called 'Revelations' by many Protestants.

    It's usually referred to as the Apocalypse among the Orthodox too, although it's common among English-speaking converts for the terminology of their past homes to be retained. So you will find Orthodox parishes where there's a culture of referring to "Revelation", "The Lord's Prayer", &c. Certainly, when the book is read in church, it is the Apocalypse.

    Isn't the etymology of apocalypse from the Greek word for Revelation?

    We've done this. ;)

    Sorry. Just wasn't sure whether the difference in terms reflected anything other than the different cultural origins of different denominations.
  • Just wasn't sure whether the difference in terms reflected anything other than the different cultural origins of different denominations.

    I shouldn't imagine so. I think it's cultural origins with perhaps a little tribal identity thrown in (in the sense that the names we give to these things, while not always intrinsically of much significance, often become party badges).

    I was only makng the observation that, as these things become entrenched, people who convert still sometimes stand out by using the names from whatever their previous homes might have been.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Is that an English language thing? In Norwegian, the Book of Revelation is called 'Johannes' Åpenbaring' (cf. German Offenbarung). We often speak of it as an 'apocalypse' (apokalypse in Norwegian), but I have have never heard Norwegian Roman Catholics refer to the book as 'Apokalypsen.' I'm not sure about the Orthodox. It might, of course, be because the Roman Catholic count for about 1,2% of the population and the Orthodox even less.
  • kmann wrote: »
    Is that an English language thing? In Norwegian, the Book of Revelation is called 'Johannes' Åpenbaring' (cf. German Offenbarung). We often speak of it as an 'apocalypse' (apokalypse in Norwegian), but I have have never heard Norwegian Roman Catholics refer to the book as 'Apokalypsen.' I'm not sure about the Orthodox. It might, of course, be because the Roman Catholic count for about 1,2% of the population and the Orthodox even less.

    I don't know how specific it is to the anglophone world. You may well be right.

    As for its use in Orthodoxy, the majority Orthodox rite is the Byzantine rite, which doesn't include the Book of the Apocalypse in its lectionary. So that might be another reason, even if Orthodoxy were more prevalent, why you might not have heard it. Orthodox Christians of other rites do use this book in worship but are a minority within a minority.
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