We've been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years now.

Dying.

And other sapients have been doing it for ten times longer. Millions of years. A hundred, a thousand times. In this blip in eternity universe alone.

So is heaven regional? With a regional Incarnation?

When did the first terrestrial sapient get there and how was that? I'm sure, like busses, there was another one along in a minute. After a bit of a wait.

How has the Sublime always and forever worked?

How credible is it? How does one walk down its streets?

(There's a Hell version of this for no holds barred responses. Eutychus has already laid in to me.)

Comments

  • Oh. I was hoping this would be about sex.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited January 12
    I was hoping bread baking.
  • We don't have answers, Martin, only more questions. All will be revealed, in time. Meanwhile, trust and hope and love trump despair.
  • Nude bakeries aside, without death no evolution.

    Self awareness is overrated. Which is why we have sex, drugs and Ship of Fools. If you post nude, just don't tell us.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    I was hoping bread baking.
    I was thinking viniculture.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Bread and wine only go back ten thousand years at the most.

    But death. That's forever.

    So is transcendence if there's a sentient ground of being.

    Wossit like?

    And no one does NOT.
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    edited January 12
    Raptor Eye wrote: »
    ...Meanwhile, trust and hope and love trump despair.
    We really need to find an alternative verb.

    (Sorry for the tangent.)

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 12
    No, please don't apologise. One of the Good Things (and their name is Legion) about oblivion is that we won't be aware of trump.

    Nor he of us.
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Raptor Eye wrote: »
    ...Meanwhile, trust and hope and love trump despair.
    We really need to find an alternative verb.

    (Sorry for the tangent.)

    Trump and Despair do go well together.

    As for the OP - we don't know, we know nothing about the nature of the afterlife. All we have is attempts to describe the indescribable. They are not supposed ot be taken literally.

    Becasue if you do, you end up in the sort of ridiculous logic of the OP.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Raptor Eye wrote: »
    ...Meanwhile, trust and hope and love trump despair.
    We really need to find an alternative verb.

    (Sorry for the tangent.)

    Trump and Despair do go well together.

    Indeed, yes. 'Giant Trump', and 'Giant Despair' - very Bunyanesque...

  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited January 12
    I was hoping it would be about beer brewing ... the other thread has got me going.

    AFF
  • Mark BettsMark Betts Shipmate
    edited January 12
    Martin54 wrote: »
    …...ground of being.....

    I've never liked that expression - first came across it in "Honest to God", but as far as I'm concerned the "ground of our being" is the dust of the earth.

  • To which, AIUI, we all return.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    When did the first terrestrial sapient get there and how was that? I'm sure, like busses, there was another one along in a minute. After a bit of a wait.
    I like this image. I think the first one was Abel? I can imagine him sitting in Heaven: "Sure, being in Your presence is nice and all, but can't You make sure someone else dies too? Make it a disease, accident, whatever. It's getting kind of lonely here."

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye. That kind of thing. Or the reality behind that comic allegory. But what qualifies a creature for transcendence? What disqualifies?
  • At least nowadays, there is more attention paid to the practical things that can and should be done to make sure that life's end is not untidily managed.
    The week-long series of programmes on Radio 4 (some time last year I think it was) was very interesting.
    I have just had an extra legal thing added to the Power of Attorney my sons have so that my wishes can be adhered to if I am unable to voice them myself.

    The most annoying thing about dying is that, when it happens,I know I'll be missing all the technological advances etc that will be made.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    They can delay the inevitable for a few. You should be pleased with me SusanDoris. I'm stretching credibility here. So, for hundreds of thousands of years people have been popping up in the plains of Heaven. What do those already there see of that? Or do we all pop up at once at the end of time? I'm sure God's got it all sorted out, He's been doing it for forever after all. But wossit like?
  • If it wasn't any good somebody would have been back to complain in the pages of the Daily Fail by now.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    They can delay the inevitable for a few. You should be pleased with me SusanDoris. I'm stretching credibility here. So, for hundreds of thousands of years people have been popping up in the plains of Heaven. What do those already there see of that? Or do we all pop up at once at the end of time? I'm sure God's got it all sorted out, He's been doing it for forever after all. But wossit like?
    Yes, I certainly noted with much interest the title of the topic!
    Whatever it would be like if it existed is only limited by the human imagination.
    I was talking to one of my sons yesterday and he was saying that there's some thing going on on Face Book on this inescapable fact - that all die.






  • Martin54 wrote: »
    They can delay the inevitable for a few. You should be pleased with me SusanDoris. I'm stretching credibility here. So, for hundreds of thousands of years people have been popping up in the plains of Heaven. What do those already there see of that? Or do we all pop up at once at the end of time? I'm sure God's got it all sorted out, He's been doing it for forever after all. But wossit like?

    Like this ...

    There was me thinking this was a thread about taxes ...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Wot? F'r'undreds uh farsands uh years?! So, all at once then - so we don't get to see how it's done - and 'outrageously' inclusive. The link says physical heaven. What's that? What is the physics, chemistry, biology, psychology of heaven?
  • Love, Martin. It's a kingdom of love. Its physics, chemistry, biology, psychology are those of love. It's a realm of love where will all happily dwell forever. Not boring, soppy love. Dynamic, active love. It's built on earth as it is in heaven, when we love one another.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited January 14
    Well Okay, Martin. You asked a question whose answer cannot be in any way empirically measured. And then pick holes in the answers because of this. But since you asked, I'll bite.

    If my own experience is any measure, my answer is, we are living the afterlife right now.

    I am living the afterlife of my life before this one, which was as a young man who sought refuge from an alcoholic and abusive father in the Alberta dustbowl as an underage soldier in WWII, and who was gunned down during the raid on Dieppe. And who thought that war was a better prospect than home.

    Which was the afterlife of a brief incarnation as a Jewish man in a Russian ghetto in pre- and post-revolutionary Russia who died of tuberculosis.

    Which was the afterlife of a brief incarnation (actually all my incarnations have been brief, I'm older now than I have ever been) as an alcoholic Russian kulak who drove the hearse that carried the remains of Tchaikovsky, and who froze to death passed out drunk in a snowbank shortly after the funeral.

    And I can go further back than this - but you get the picture.

    Which brings me to your present question, what are the physics, chemistry and biology of heaven? And my answer is, these right here are the physics, biology and chemistry of heaven. It's just that I am not there just yet. The gnostics have it right IMO - the Kingdom is within.

    Lurching toward the New Jerusalem, one misguided fucked-up incarnation at a time.

    AFF

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Amen brother. I just can't help picking at the concept. Trying to make it work. There must be a region of heaven for every inhabited world. Of all the universes. From forever. There are transcendent. sublimed creatures that have lived practically forever. Every kink ironed out, every lack made up, every loss restituted in the first hundred year equivalents. In a thousand years everyone's a musical maestro on every instrument including voice and master artist and craftsperson and player of games and athlete and... Ten thousand. A million. How is all of that experience managed with perfect recall? We'll be very, very different creatures. There is obviously no going back, only forward. Saw a documentary recently on a Pyrenean shepherd. I could do that forever alone.
  • Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.

    - Woody Allen (attr.) (I always thought it was Mark Twain...)
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    AFF. You do know that you can do no wrong? Regardless! And even a rationalist like me yearns for the kingdom within and between.
  • No idea, I look forward to the surprise!
    Perhaps I`ll be with 143,999 JW`s?
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    AFF. You do know that you can do no wrong? Regardless! And even a rationalist like me yearns for the kingdom within and between.

    LOL. Not certain if the rhetorical question is rhetorical or sarcasm because it's very hard to read you in the tone you intend to be read in.

    BUT

    Yes, I know it because I am here to tell the tale of all my heinous crimes (and I say that with all sincerity, since many of them have been exactly that) and my petty misdemeanors.

    Which is for me the absolute testimony to the great love of the One in whom we have our being: that anything and everything is allowed, there is no intervention, and that we are supported and encouraged by the Christ in Us, and by one another in each successive incarnation, to seek and grant forgiveness, and to experience redemption and the Peace that Passes All Understanding.

    All experience is sacred.

    AFF

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I'm unfortunately more than capable of flesh tearing, but not for the first time, not yours.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    DonLogan2 wrote: »
    No idea, I look forward to the surprise!
    Perhaps I`ll be with 143,999 JW`s?

    Aye, I try and take the wager. But don't remember to take it up every day admittedly. I find invoking God as my friend helps.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    I'm unfortunately more than capable of flesh tearing, but not for the first time, not yours.

    Thanks Martin. I guess?

    Why does that come across as vaguely menacing instead of reassuring?

    I'm going to chalk this one up to the beat poet in you ... :wink:

    AFF

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    You are are a friend as far as I'm concerned. You pee emmed me once and that's that. I'm about as menacing as a three day stale, uncovered ham salad samwich can be. Pathetically offensive. We're poles apart, but we're global enough to overlap. You need to know that you have my goodwill.
  • ((((((((((((Martin))))))))))
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    ((((((((((((Martin))))))))))
    ))

    There. Now I feel better.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    A man after my own obsessive heart.
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