What teacher? (calling Twilight to Hell because she wanted me to)

13

Comments

  • Twilight wrote: »
    ... Yes, Phillips has had a very hard life, I don't doubt that, but he is on film calling himself a Vietnam Veteran and telling sad stories about girls spitting on him when he came back from Vietnam. Since he never left the states, both of these things are untrue and the lie about coming home to be spit on is such an obvious attempt to gain sympathy that it makes me question all his stories to some degree. The writer of your article hasn't checked his facts very well or he would know Phillips was simply discharged from the military, not an honorable discharge. They're not the same thing at all and would explain his not achieving any rank above private and give credence to the stories that he went AWOL a few times. Phillips has a criminal record for several misdemeanors, and when he was a young ( presumably vigorous and strong) man he was arrested for assault. Not always so peaceful. I simply don't fully trust his accounts of his life, since he has been caught lying or exaggerating several times. ...

    Yeah, well, he couldn't afford a PR firm to do his media strategy and thus prevent his "youthful indiscretions" from being held against him for the rest of his life.

    Did Nathan Phillips falsely claim he was a Vietnam veteran?






    Yes, Yes, Twilight stands up for the underdog, which in this case is a white kid wearing a racist hat who the right are turning into a cause celebre. Thank Christ.

    You got a response to this, then?
  • Twilight wrote: »
    ... Yes, Phillips has had a very hard life, I don't doubt that, but he is on film calling himself a Vietnam Veteran and telling sad stories about girls spitting on him when he came back from Vietnam. Since he never left the states, both of these things are untrue and the lie about coming home to be spit on is such an obvious attempt to gain sympathy that it makes me question all his stories to some degree. The writer of your article hasn't checked his facts very well or he would know Phillips was simply discharged from the military, not an honorable discharge. They're not the same thing at all and would explain his not achieving any rank above private and give credence to the stories that he went AWOL a few times. Phillips has a criminal record for several misdemeanors, and when he was a young ( presumably vigorous ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXOesVzDifEnd strong) man he was arrested for assault. Not always so peaceful. I simply don't fully trust his accounts of his life, since he has been caught lying or exaggerating several times. ...

    Yeah, well, he couldn't afford a PR firm to do his media strategy and thus prevent his "youthful indiscretions" from being held against him for the rest of his life.

    [url="https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nathan-phillips-vietnam-veter[/url]




    Yes, Yes, Twilight stands up for the underdog, which in this case is a white kid wearing a racist hat who the right are turning into a cause celebre. Thank Christ.

    You got a response to this, then?
    Yes.


  • See, now this is my fault. I should have said "Do you have a credible response". My bad. Do you?

    And did you read to the end of that Snopes article? The keyboard warrior who made that garbage you linked to didn't. I did. How 'bout you give it a look? I'll wait.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Scene: 1945, The Reichstag, Berlin.

    [enter Hitler and Twilight]

    H: Everyone is against me! Even my own generals!

    T: No so fast, Adolf! You are clearly the underdog in this situation, and I have no choice but to support you.

    [enter chorus]

    C: Oh how noble and brave she is, always championing the underdog!

    [Russian shell explodes on stage, killing most of the chorus]

    C: ... the underdog ...

    [Another shell lands and finishes the chorus off]

    H: Perhaps I have made a mistake with National Socialism, waging war on Europe, and that whole 'Final Solution' thing.

    T: No, no. Now is not the time to apologise for anything. Hire a PR firm. You can still win with me by your side.

    [Stage is obliterated by more shelling. Thankfully.]
  • Was that the Finale from the lost element of The Ring of the Nibelung?
  • See, now this is my fault. I should have said "Do you have a credible response". My bad. Do you?

    And did you read to the end of that Snopes article? The keyboard warrior who made that garbage you linked to didn't. I did. How 'bout you give it a look? I'll wait.

    Yes I did read to the end of the snopes article and I'm surprised they ended with "unproven" when they themselves show the video of Phillips clearly saying "I'm a Vietnam Vet." They and others seem to think that because he so often says, "Vietnam-times Vet," that means he never, ever said "Vietnam Vet." First he straight-up lies about his service, then, probably after getting in trouble from the Stolen Valor group he says deliberately misleading things like "Vietnam-times Vet" and claims to have come back and been spit on. Come back from where, exactly? He was never overseas and he was never, 'In theater." My husband was in the theater of operations (Thailand and Korea) loading bombs on planes to drop in Vietnam during the actual war. He would never say he was a Vietnam or Vietnam-times Vet. He volunteers as bugler for the VFW burial guard but is not eligible to be a member, in spite of 22 years service, because they are very strict about those qualifications.

    Nathan Phillips doesn't need a PR firm, he is his own PR spokesman all day every day. His full time occupation seems to be going to events, disrupting Catholic masses, hooking on to any march or occasion that gets the press out so that he will have a chance to do his thing. Every word he says seems disingenuous to me, overly slow and soft and self-reverential. He often begins by saying, in his die away voice, "I don't like to talk about myself," followed by thirty minutes of sad stories about himself that are guaranteed to get him lots of sympathy. No PR firm could come up with a better spin than he has worked out for himself, lots of his stories seem to be taken straight from the movies. I kind of admire old Nathan for the role he has carved out for himself, but when he lies about other people he goes to far.


    Title for Doc Tor's marvelous new play: "Nick Sandmann is Hitler."

    One stood on a step, the other killed six million people. So much in common, how did we all miss it?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    So you've never heard of reductio ad absurdum, then? It is the logical conclusion of your illogical crusade.
    Anytime the internet, late night talk show hosts and CNN have all agreeed to vilify someone, particularly without knowing the whole story and with slanted headlines, I just have to jump in and do a half-assed job of defending them.
    You have simply abrogated any responsibility to make up your own mind, even as you castigate others for jumping on the bandwagon.

    Just because your particular vehicle of nonsense is heading in the opposite direction, it doesn't make you right. In fact, it's more likely that you're going to be terribly, terribly wrong, and you end up supporting some dick, flying in the face of all reason and sanity.

    Oh, wait.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Well, three pages in, and I can’t see that we’ve made much progress either on the question of mousethief’s teacherpetness, or on whether
    mousethief wrote: »
    . . .Twilight is a racist idiot.
    But I’m inclined to agree with mousethief’s observation:
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.
    I’m a teacher. Does this make mousethief my pet?



  • FFS Twilight, Snopes are being cautious preciselt because it isn't "clear" as you claim. Surely you can't be so credulous as to take that video you posted seriously? I'm no tech-type, but even to me that editing was amateur hour.
    I actually don't think you're a racist idiot, I can't speak for anyone else, but that smirky kid in the racist hat, backed up by all his smirky mates in their matching racist hats really is not the underdog here, and really, really doesn't need you to defend him. The right are doing just fine at that without your help.
  • *precisely. Missed the edit window.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    I was actually thinking the same thing as Doc Tor, that logically, if you feel compelled to defend anyone who is vilified by the majority, that would include Hitler.

    But I don't particularly see this as a reductio ad absurdum. I can see a place for pointing out that Hitler was a human being, same as all of us, and while his actions can be judged as atrocious, judgement of his soul should be left to God, as none of us know for certain how we would have behaved if we'd had his particular background and experiences and mental/chemical make-up.

    I guess I find myself unwilling/unable to see any human being as a 'monster' - like they're a different breed from the rest of us decent people. I may be wrong, but it seems very messy and complicated to me, and there is a part of me that sees all human beings, no matter how despicable their behaviour, as precious and sacred. And I think it's entirely possible that there are plenty of people (maybe even all of us) with the same propensity for evil as Hitler, but not the same pressures, influences and opportunities to actually lead to causing the huge cruelty and destruction he caused. And that possibly in different circumstances, Hitler would even have been the cause of much good. I don't know. But to me the hesitation to join in with mob vilification of people is about this very state of not knowing. Behaviour we can condemn as harmful. But we can never truly judge another person's soul.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    ... Yes, Phillips has had a very hard life, I don't doubt that, but he is on film calling himself a Vietnam Veteran and telling sad stories about girls spitting on him when he came back from Vietnam. Since he never left the states, both of these things are untrue and the lie about coming home to be spit on is such an obvious attempt to gain sympathy that it makes me question all his stories to some degree. The writer of your article hasn't checked his facts very well or he would know Phillips was simply discharged from the military, not an honorable discharge. They're not the same thing at all and would explain his not achieving any rank above private and give credence to the stories that he went AWOL a few times. Phillips has a criminal record for several misdemeanors, and when he was a young ( presumably vigorous and strong) man he was arrested for assault. Not always so peaceful. I simply don't fully trust his accounts of his life, since he has been caught lying or exaggerating several times. ...

    Yeah, well, he couldn't afford a PR firm to do his media strategy and thus prevent his "youthful indiscretions" from being held against him for the rest of his life.

    Did Nathan Phillips falsely claim he was a Vietnam veteran?

    The Snopes link seems to disprove some of your comments. And frankly, it's a bit of a leap to
    FFS Twilight, Snopes are being cautious preciselt because it isn't "clear" as you claim. Surely you can't be so credulous as to take that video you posted seriously? I'm no tech-type, but even to me that editing was amateur hour.
    I actually don't think you're a racist idiot, I can't speak for anyone else, but that smirky kid in the racist hat, backed up by all his smirky mates in their matching racist hats really is not the underdog here, and really, really doesn't need you to defend him. The right are doing just fine at that without your help.

    I'm going for unconscious bias rather than fully fledged racist idiocy.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    Well, three pages in, and I can’t see that we’ve made much progress either on the question of mousethief’s teacherpetness, or on whether
    mousethief wrote: »
    . . .Twilight is a racist idiot.
    But I’m inclined to agree with mousethief’s observation:
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.
    I’m a teacher. Does this make mousethief my pet?



    The obvious reason I might have defended more right-wing underdogs* on this site is that this is a very left-leaning site so if someone is being vilified, chances are good he is right-wing. I used to post occasionally on a fundamentalist Christian site, just to try to talk one or two of them out of voting for Trump, and to give the Pro-Choice side of things when they went on their Pro-life rants. I was eventually proclaimed "Evil" and sent on my way.

    * Is that really always the case? I might need examples.

    Once you and Mousethief decided that the MAGA hat always means a racist is underneath it, and anyone who defends a racist is a racist, then, okay, by your definition I'm a racist.
    By my definition, I'm not as terribly color conscious as the two of you are and not as likely to look at skin color, in any situation, before deciding who is right and who is wrong, so, by my definition, I'm not as racist as you are.

  • mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.

    Which makes sense if you are a contrarian on a mostly left-wing forum.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.

    Which makes sense if you are a contrarian on a mostly left-wing forum.

    I am struck by how readily the judgments made on this thread about the boys would be branded as stereotyping if they were made of groups that the writers favor. I presume the example of Godwin's Law is OTT even for most of the posters here, although I have often been proven wrong on matters of self-awareness.
    AFAICS, Twilight is on the side of the angels here. The insistence on turning the incident into a political cause celebre really is a stretch. I understand that it hits all of some folks' hot buttons, involving native Americans, MAGA hats, an anti-abortion rally, and private school kids. But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic. We desperately need to ratchet down the vituperation and ratchet up the sense of community in this country. When such a non-event turns into an icon of our values, we have truly lost our way. Or so ISTM.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic.

    This is the message that white, privileged boys need to learn. Not ‘we’ll hire a PR company to protect you from the consequences of your actions.”

    Angels? There are no angels in this sad story.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic.

    This is the message that white, privileged boys need to learn. Not ‘we’ll hire a PR company to protect you from the consequences of your actions.”

    Angels? There are no angels in this sad story.

    This
  • This all happened because they were there for an anti-abortion rally. I'm sure there was no hate there. Kof, kof.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    tclune wrote: »
    I am struck by how readily the judgments made on this thread about the boys would be branded as stereotyping if they were made of groups that the writers favor.

    You mean, like the black 'preachers' who started this whole sorry mess? Oh, sure, we're foresquare behind them.

    Not.

    It is, of course, just possible that right wing views cop so much flack here because they're wrong. Just a suggestion.
  • tclune wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.

    Which makes sense if you are a contrarian on a mostly left-wing forum.

    I am struck by how readily the judgments made on this thread about the boys would be branded as stereotyping if they were made of groups that the writers favor. I presume the example of Godwin's Law is OTT even for most of the posters here, although I have often been proven wrong on matters of self-awareness.
    Like now, for example?
    AFAICS, Twilight is on the side of the angels here. The insistence on turning the incident into a political cause celebre really is a stretch. I understand that it hits all of some folks' hot buttons, involving native Americans, MAGA hats, an anti-abortion rally, and private school kids. But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic. We desperately need to ratchet down the vituperation and ratchet up the sense of community in this country. When such a non-event turns into an icon of our values, we have truly lost our way. Or so ISTM.

    What Boogie said. There are no angels here. Not you, not Twilight, and sure as shit not those boys in the racist hats. And perhaps not even Nathan Phillips, though he was not the one smirking at a Native American but seemed to be trying to help. Even if he is a flawed human being.

    Dunno what you're reading.
  • tclune wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.

    Which makes sense if you are a contrarian on a mostly left-wing forum.

    I am struck by how readily the judgments made on this thread about the boys would be branded as stereotyping if they were made of groups that the writers favor. I presume the example of Godwin's Law is OTT even for most of the posters here, although I have often been proven wrong on matters of self-awareness.
    Like now, for example?
    AFAICS, Twilight is on the side of the angels here. The insistence on turning the incident into a political cause celebre really is a stretch. I understand that it hits all of some folks' hot buttons, involving native Americans, MAGA hats, an anti-abortion rally, and private school kids. But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic. We desperately need to ratchet down the vituperation and ratchet up the sense of community in this country. When such a non-event turns into an icon of our values, we have truly lost our way. Or so ISTM.

    What Boogie said. There are no angels here. Not you, not Twilight, and sure as shit not those boys in the racist hats. And perhaps not even Nathan Phillips, though he was not the one smirking at a Native American but seemed to be trying to help. Even if he is a flawed human being.

    Dunno what you're reading.

    TBH, I thought this thread was less about the incident in Washington and more a (heated) discussion about why Twilight defends person A not person B in a given situation.

    And actually, I find her determination to defend the unpopular option in discussions admirable. Even though I don't think it's always entirely helpful to either her blood pressure or their cause.
  • Tubbs wrote: »
    Even though I don't think it's always entirely helpful to either her blood pressure or their cause.
    Thank you for the blood pressure concern, Tubbs. It's the reason I have not allowed myself to go anywhere near the, "Lets put Lil'Buddha in charge" thread. I adore her and I would no doubt make things worse for her and probably send myself to the ER.

  • Twilight wrote: »
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Even though I don't think it's always entirely helpful to either her blood pressure or their cause.
    Thank you for the blood pressure concern, Tubbs. It's the reason I have not allowed myself to go anywhere near the, "Lets put Lil'Buddha in charge" thread. I adore her and I would no doubt make things worse for her and probably send myself to the ER.

    And thank you for your lovely response. :)
  • Tubbs wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    What I have noticed about the so-called underdogs that Twilight has chosen to defend is that they are uniformly right-wing, even far right.

    Which makes sense if you are a contrarian on a mostly left-wing forum.

    I am struck by how readily the judgments made on this thread about the boys would be branded as stereotyping if they were made of groups that the writers favor. I presume the example of Godwin's Law is OTT even for most of the posters here, although I have often been proven wrong on matters of self-awareness.
    Like now, for example?
    AFAICS, Twilight is on the side of the angels here. The insistence on turning the incident into a political cause celebre really is a stretch. I understand that it hits all of some folks' hot buttons, involving native Americans, MAGA hats, an anti-abortion rally, and private school kids. But the demand for an other to hate is, at the very least, problematic. We desperately need to ratchet down the vituperation and ratchet up the sense of community in this country. When such a non-event turns into an icon of our values, we have truly lost our way. Or so ISTM.

    What Boogie said. There are no angels here. Not you, not Twilight, and sure as shit not those boys in the racist hats. And perhaps not even Nathan Phillips, though he was not the one smirking at a Native American but seemed to be trying to help. Even if he is a flawed human being.

    Dunno what you're reading.

    TBH, I thought this thread was less about the incident in Washington and more a (heated) discussion about why Twilight defends person A not person B in a given situation.

    And actually, I find her determination to defend the unpopular option in discussions admirable. Even though I don't think it's always entirely helpful to either her blood pressure or their cause.

    And I'm responding to tclune. I trust that is ok.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Sticking up for what's unpopular is one thing. Sticking up for the new kid in class when others pick on her because nobody likes her (yet); that's admirable. Sticking up for the class bully because everyone's turned against him -- maybe not so much.

    Twilight believes, apparently in all sincerity, that Sandmann is an upstanding fella who stood smiling beneficently at a lying scumbag of a Native American drummer. She bases her belief on the same evidence which persuades many others here that he was rude and disrespectful. I can't help wondering how much Twilight's staunch defense is actually in reaction not to Sandmann and/or various videos, but on what others of us have said about him here.

    As someone who is still mystified by the election of Tyrannosaurus Wrecks, and even more mystified by the continued support he gets from his base, I can't help wondering if there's something here which I might need to learn, and which Twilight might teach us all.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I was in digs once with a young woman who was a primary school teacher. I at the time was a librarian in another - and rougher school.

    I was relating an incident in a teacher had failed to turn up to take a class. The children, as was their wont, wrecked the classroom, which was the Formroom of another teacher, and among other things, stole her lunch.

    Her verdict? ‘It was the fault of the Form teacher!’

    From which I learnt that some people are simply Contrary.
  • Formroom? Is that like what we call "home room"--the first class of the day, every day? And younger kids are generally in home room all day,

    Thx.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Formroom? Is that like what we call "home room"--the first class of the day, every day? And younger kids are generally in home room all day,

    Thx.

    This was a Secondary school (11+). Years - certainly then - were Forms, subdivided into classes, usually labelled a,b,c etc. You had a Form room and Form teacher where you started each day, but moved to other rooms for different subjects.
  • yeah in US that's "homeroom"
  • Twilight, I have a present for you - some kids who weren't being racist and were thrown under the team bus by their league:
    An uproar in Fort McMurray, Alta., over a viral video that some considered racist has led to a minor hockey team forfeiting the remainder of its season because of safety concerns.

    Parents of players on the Fort McMurray Midget 'A' Junior Oil Barons issued a statement this week strongly criticizing the "brash actions" of the Fort McMurray Minor Hockey Association after an online video surfaced last month showing young hockey players dancing to the song Electric Pow Wow Drum by A Tribe Called Red.

    "The video showed a few team members, some of them Indigenous, engaging in a motivational dance," the parents said in their statement, issued Wednesday. "This was not intended as a derogatory or racist act."
    ...
    In another statement on Jan. 23, a lawyer for the McKay Métis Association said two boys in the video are Indigenous.

    Dwayne Roth said the boys were pow-wow dancing in the locker room before the game and the dance was intended to reflect their culture and motivate the team.

    "Rush to judgment based on out of context video clips is becoming all too common and poses real danger to the reputation and safety of those incorrectly labelled."

    Fort McMurray hockey team forfeits season

    IANAL, and filming under-age boys in their locker room and publishing the video may not technically be a sex crime, but it is an invasion of privacy. (There is no expectation of privacy at the Lincoln Memorial.) And real racists have probably never heard of A Tribe Called Red, and if they had, they probably wouldn't choose this video to spoof:

    A Tribe Called Red - Electric Pow Wow Drum (Official Video)





  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Formroom? Is that like what we call "home room"--the first class of the day, every day? And younger kids are generally in home room all day,
    Not always the first class. At my kids’ high school, home room is second period.

  • Nick--

    Weird. Is there a known reason for that?? Thx.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    I can't help wondering how much Twilight's staunch defense is actually in reaction not to Sandmann and/or various videos, but on what others of us have said about him here.

    Maybe just the sense that he didn't deserve the storm of abuse he got on the wider internet ?

    That there's a knee-jerk reaction to the r-word, people lining up to condemn him based on very limited and partial information, in a way that they wouldn't in other contexts ?
    As someone who is still mystified by the election of Tyrannosaurus Wrecks, and even more mystified by the continued support he gets from his base, I can't help wondering if there's something here which I might need to learn, and which Twilight might teach us all.

    Good thought.

    Parsing MAGA as Make Racism Acceptable Again is setting out to condemn rather than to understand. That's probably not what the majority of Trump-voters thought they were voting for.

    From this distance, it seems like DT's principal attraction was that he isn't a politician. But Twilight has much greater exposure to the Trump-voting demographic than I do...
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Nick--

    Weird. Is there a known reason for that?? Thx.
    I can guess, but that’s all it is. The school is on a block schedule—4 periods per day, 4 classes per semester. Announcements are made and forms and other things distributed and collected during second period, so it is designated “home room.” My guess is that between doctor, dentist, etc. appointments and some students running late, they decided 2nd period is the most likely time for the most students to be present. Just a guess though.

    /tangent

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    And here's Russ, pretending to be not to be an asshole apologist.
    Russ wrote: »
    Parsing MAGA as Make Racism Acceptable Again is setting out to condemn rather than to understand. That's probably not what the majority of Trump-voters thought they were voting for.

    Such condemnation has been hard-earned, and you belittle the significant racist efforts made so far this presidency. And while there might be a hypothetical portion of Trump voters not particularly inclined to support racism, they are all overwhelmingly accepting of it.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    RooK wrote: »
    Such condemnation has been hard-earned, and you belittle the significant racist efforts made so far this presidency. And while there might be a hypothetical portion of Trump voters not particularly inclined to support racism, they are all overwhelmingly accepting of it.
    This. At two-plus years into the narcissistic sociopath's presidency, I don't think anyone in a MAGA hat can still claim innocence on that front.


  • RussRuss Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    while there might be a hypothetical portion of Trump voters not particularly inclined to support racism, they are all overwhelmingly accepting of it.

    Are you talking here from personal experience ? Spend a lot of time with committed Republicans, do you ?

  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Because obviously Russ will ride to the rescue of racism-enablers, it being a subject so close to his heart.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Ah, the hilarious error of thinking that subjective personal experience is more valid than simple facts. The next losing move is to point out that I'm acting superior, which is technically true.
  • Russ wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    while there might be a hypothetical portion of Trump voters not particularly inclined to support racism, they are all overwhelmingly accepting of it.

    Are you talking here from personal experience ? Spend a lot of time with committed Republicans, do you ?

    Check the voting patterns. If X is a racist, which way will they vote?

    I'm beginning to think that Russ is a contrarian Bot, not a Yuman Bean.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    So clear this up for a Brit. MAGA mean make America great again. This is Trumps big rally cry. Has it become so associated with racism it can be used at face value any more?
    BTW this forum only leans a little to the left. I would say it is quite central politically
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    It's a nationalist, nativist slogan, that looks back to when America wasn't that great for anyone except white, straight men.

    Which is fine if you're a white, straight man, or you hold to a 'traditional' wife/mother role in the family. For everyone else (and it must be especially galling for Native Americans and the descendants of slaves), not so fine.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I think MAGA is pretty obviously racist and sexist. Perhaps there was a time, early on, when folk of goodwill could don a MAGA cap without seeming to endorse bigotry, but that train pulled out of the station quite a while ago.

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    This column, by the conservative Pulitzer-winning columnist Kathleen Parker, deals with the question well. Here's the nut graf:
    ...During the two years of the Trump presidency, MAGA has morphed in the public mind from a rah-rah rally chant to a nearly KKK-grade threat of white supremacy. This is obviously unfair to the millions who support, say, a conservative Supreme Court yet never racism or nativism, but this is where we are. The value of MAGA as a positive slogan is spent, except among a relatively small cadre of Trump loyalists who might as well be exchanging a secret handshake. ...


  • Has America ever been great?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    That's a very Purgatorial question...
  • An excellent question.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Yup. I keep wondering when this hypothetical "greatness" was. I think there have been a number of things great about America and still are. But the country as a whole "great"? I dunno.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Same is asked about 'Great' Britain.
  • “Great” Britain just refers to the size of the island.

    It goes back to the days when you had “la Grande Bretagne” (now Great Britain) and “la petite Bretagne” (the region of France known as Brittany today).
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