Ship of Fools: Apostles Lutheran, Peoria, Arizona, USA
The Mystery Worshipper
Shipmate
Ship of Fools: Apostles Lutheran, Peoria, Arizona, USA
A pleasure to sing along to the music, but where did everyone go?
Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here
Comments
How odd...could they be 'groupies', present only for that performance at the beginning of the service? But that can't be so, if they left as he began - maybe they were anticipating something/someone different/better (delete as appropriate).
A congregation of 30 or so at what in the UK would be the principal service of the day seems a bit thin - almost standard UK Anglican size!
We don't have many Lutheran churches in the UK, so I'm not too clear as to the distinctions between them elsewhere. Are the Missouri Synod churches not in communion with (say) the Anglican churches?
BTW, I do like the way the MW reports can be linked to comments - very efficient and workmanlike. All Involved Shall Have Prizes.
IJ
To confuse the matter further, the Evangelical Lutheran Church-Wisconsin Synod is not in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America either.
And let's not talk about the Laestadian Lutherans, who seem to be in a world of their own.
As for the people who left, my best guess is that they headed over to the Spanish service that was taking place in the parish hall at the same time as the 10:45 English service in the sanctuary. I couldn't hear what they were saying as they visited before the service, so I don't know if they were speaking Spanish or English. I'm guessing that they were visiting with their English-speaking fellow parishioners and then took off for their own service. It just struck me as odd that they all got up together in a bunch just as the pianist began his solo -- like a flock of birds frightened into flight.
But thanks for the clarification(?)
Miss Amanda, I'd noticed that the Spanish service started at the same time (1045am), so ISWYM. An odd situation, nevertheless.
IJ
IJ
This is getting a bit off-topic, perhaps, but it does seem a shame that the Lutherans have much the same sort of dead-horse divisions as we Anglicans!
Back to the MW Report - it would be interesting to know how many faithful attended the 8am service, and the 1045am Spanish service.
IJ
I am told the Spanish pastor is a native Mexican, so I think it's likely that I wouldn't understand his Spanish unless he spoke slowly. I may pop my head in some Sunday just to see what it's like -- no guarantee that I would stay.
Our shipmate Leaf is ordained in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada and for several years served as rector (we don't have vicars here in Canada) of an Anglican parish.
Alas, few signs of a similar agreement here. Certainly not on as far as the Sydney diocese is concerned and I don't know if the others hav seriously considered it. Then, the Lutherans are a vey small community and are not all that outward looking either.
Did they sit to sing and stand to pray as the German Lutheran church I visited did?
hymnary.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadian_Lutheran_Church
Once again, the Ship proves itself to be an Instrument Of Education. I know little of the Lutheran churches worldwide (though I have visited, and MWed, a congregation in London), and find the variations most interesting.
I suppose the Lutheran church (in general) is actually senior to my own Dearly Beloved Church of England!
IJ
Life being what it is, there are other anomalies. Where I live, the most visible of these is that the American Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the Moravian Church in America are all in full communion with one another. However, the ELCA is also in full communion with the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Methodist Church, and the Reformed Church of America and the United Church of Christ. None of the latter groups is in full communion with TEC, and only the UMC is in communion with the Moravians.
*To wit, the Churches of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland , along with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Lithuania, and the Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church, are all members of the LWF the Porvoo Communion (which puts them in full Communion with the Churches of England and Ireland, as well as the Scottish Episcopal Church). The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is also a member of the LWF and is in full communion with the American Episcopal Church. Likewise, in Canada, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada is a member of the LWF and in full communion with the Anglican Church of Canada.
Cynically, I wonder if the reason for involving Episcopal bishops in ELCA consecrations is less out of joyful ecumenism than a desire to quietly impose apostolic succession on the ELCA, bishop by bishop. I imagine there are some Episcopalians who feel that without apostolic succession, Lutheran orders are not valid.
(I think it's true that ELCA hasn't historically required apostolic succession? I'm a cradle Episcopalian employed at an ELCA church, so my knowledge of Lutheran theology and practice is piecemeal at best.)
Certainly our views of what happens at ordination / consecration are very different - my boss tells me that ELCA bishops go back to being regular old pastors after their elected term is over, whereas Episcopal bishops are bishops all the way, from their first crosier thump to their last dyin' day.
Right. ELCA (like its predecessor bodies, as @PDR notes), hasn’t historically required apostolic succession. Some Lutherans, such as the Church of Sweden, held on to apostolic succession. Others, like German and American Lutherans, did not. American Lutherans have generally viewed specific forms of church government as adiaphora—something not essential that Lutheran bodies can accept, reject or modify as they think appropriate.
Some Lutherans also identify “apostolic succession” as being found in the passing on of the teaching of doctrine rather than in the historic episcopate.
BTW, and FWIW, I think Lutherans (American Lutheran, at least) have traditionally been more likely to talk about “altar and pulpit fellowship” (referring to the ability of pastors of one body to preside at the altars and preach in the pulpits of another body) than about “full communion”—again, until the ELCA.