White Supremacy

Christ Church, 51 killed
El Paso 22 killed
Gilroy 3 people killed
Pittsburgh 11 killed


All four were definitely the result of white supremacy ideology. Much of it is promoted online through sites like 8chan (which now has been taken down).

Just this past weekend someone posted in our local paper that being concerned about violence being caused by Muslims is not racist. I was quick to reply of the 250+ mass shootings in the US I could think of none that were perpetrated by Muslims.

But this is not an American problem only. White nationalism is growing in Europe, Russia, South Africa.

Some people are so concerned about race displacement.

As I was driving home today there was a discussion on how some of these groups now think of the Christ Church killings as the standard to beat.

How do we stop this insanity?
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Comments

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    I confess this perplexes me. As far as I know (not far, trust me), the so-called "white" race has ALWAYS, at every point in human history, been a minority group globally. Has there ever been a time when "whites" aboard planet earth were not outnumbered by people with darker or ruddier or sallower complexions plus people with different eye-folds, skull-shapes, hair textures and on and on?

    It appears that, through a collection of happy (for "whites," anyway; not so much, maybe, for others) accidents of having managed to settle in and populate planetary spots rich in readily-exploitable natural resources with temperate climates, "whites" have currently come to dominate the planet in socio-political ways, though there's plenty of evidence that role has been played by other "races" in the past. And may in the future, assuming we have one as we exhaust our planet's supply of potable water, arable land, and breathable air. (Now there's a White Man's Burden for you. Please pass the guilt.)

    The white supremacist rhetoric I've heard seems predicated on the notion that "whites" are now getting outnumbered, when in fact "whites" have always been outnumbered. It's only the fact that groups tend to stick to familiar neighbors and intermarry with those who share customs, beliefs, and language that offers the illusion, in some places, that "whites" have numerical dominance.

    Well. That and a particularly virulent adherence to racism. It's only ignorance and denial of great civilizations of the past that props this garbage up.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Work on stopping it by learning from people like this man:

    "How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR).

    And he's African-American.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    BTW, that NPR link has audio, an article, and a link for a transcript.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    How do we stop this insanity?

    I have no idea what others should do, but in the US white people need to interrogate whiteness itself. We need to talk about what it is, what we think it does for us, and how we can break free of it.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    How do we stop this insanity?

    I have no idea what others should do, but in the US white people need to interrogate whiteness itself. We need to talk about what it is, what we think it does for us, and how we can break free of it.

    Exactly.

    I don’t know anybody with this ideology either online or offline. But those who do need to call it out and talk it out at every mention. We are all descended from immigrants for goodness sake!

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    I think I've shared a story before about a guy I know who became a skinhead in his early 20's. He was nice, if disconcerting, to be around, unless he had a drink or saw someone he didn't know who was of asian appearance. He was part of a gaming fraternity in the days before the internet was any good. I saw him again in 2000, after I had been away from the group for years. I was surprised he still hung around given that everyone else was an uber-nerd from the '80's. It was incongruous seeing him there, tatts piercings, torn black jeans and studded leather jacket, while the rest of us wore baggy jeans, polo shirts and flabby guts hanging over our belts. He was clearly accepted though, clearly a person who went to many of the tournaments held around the country. I think they had imposed some rules of behavior on him though, as he was cautioned at one point.

    I'm inclined to say that white supremacists like my gaming friend shouldn't be isolated. In this group he was offered friendship, even love. He was accepted like everyone else as someone who played a game we love. Everything about him expressed the violence and hate of skinhead culture, but these guys - mostly white but a few asian-aussies, offered him a normal place, and a place he valued because he did moderate his behavior.

    I think the best Christian congregations treat their 'difficult' members like this - the alcoholics, the addicted, the mentally ill. So maybe that's the answer for people with difficult political views as well: caritas.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    This is a tangent, and one that has baffled me for over forty years, but the first skinheads, in the late sixties, were great fans of Reggae and (especially) Ska music. How racism became associated with skinheads is one of those mysteries. I suspect it was at a time like now, when there wa a need to find an "out group" for everything that was wrong.
  • Right, skinheads were not originally a racist subculture, and in fact once the racist elements began emerging, there were other skinheads who opposed them and today there are still remnants of that in SHARP (Skinheads against racial prejudice) and RASH (Red and anarchist skinheads) and other associations.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 7
    Ohher wrote: »
    I confess this perplexes me. As far as I know (not far, trust me), the so-called "white" race has ALWAYS, at every point in human history, been a minority group globally. Has there ever been a time when "whites" aboard planet earth were not outnumbered by people with darker or ruddier or sallower complexions plus people with different eye-folds, skull-shapes, hair textures and on and on?

    Well yes (and also the idea of whiteness has been a moving target based on place and time) but the particular concern of white nationalists is being outnumbered in "their" countries. They don't care how many non-whites are out there as long as they stay out there.

    Terrorism is a fairly common reaction when a hegemonic group feels its hegemony is threatened. A similar fear sent many Sunni Arab Iraqis into the arms of Islamic State. There are all kinds of things that can and should be done to mitigate these fears and build connections and friendships but unfortunately time and bloodshed still seem to figure into the equation. God help us.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Christ Church, 51 killed
    El Paso 22 killed
    Gilroy 3 people killed
    Pittsburgh 11 killed


    All four were definitely the result of white supremacy ideology. Much of it is promoted online through sites like 8chan (which now has been taken down).

    Just this past weekend someone posted in our local paper that being concerned about violence being caused by Muslims is not racist. I was quick to reply of the 250+ mass shootings in the US I could think of none that were perpetrated by Muslims.

    But this is not an American problem only. White nationalism is growing in Europe, Russia, South Africa.

    Some people are so concerned about race displacement.

    As I was driving home today there was a discussion on how some of these groups now think of the Christ Church killings as the standard to beat.

    How do we stop this insanity?

    Er.... ban guns? Or change human nature. Whichever is easiest...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 7
    Don't you just wish that he woke up one day and he was a black working class single mother who worked as the help for... him? What a movie script eh?
  • It's not just white supremacy. There's something male and man going on. There are millions of women who have bigger and real problems which might justify the level of anger that motivates violence, but I've never heard of one of them doing a mass shooting.
  • W HyattW Hyatt Shipmate
    edited August 7
    Ohher wrote: »
    It appears that, through a collection of happy (for "whites," anyway; not so much, maybe, for others) accidents of having managed to settle in and populate planetary spots rich in readily-exploitable natural resources with temperate climates, "whites" have currently come to dominate the planet in socio-political ways, though there's plenty of evidence that role has been played by other "races" in the past.

    An interesting theory on exactly how and why that's the case can be found in the book "Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond (e.g. on Amazon here).

    To summarize in a single sentence, it's because Eurasia runs east-west while other continents run north-shouth.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    edited August 7
    It's not just white supremacy. There's something male and man going on. There are millions of women who have bigger and real problems which might justify the level of anger that motivates violence, but I've never heard of one of them doing a mass shooting.

    Though there are plenty of women among various alt right and alt right adjacent groups, some of them (like Tomi Lahren, and Lauren Southern) relatively high profile.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited August 7
    Female mass shooters are rare but not unknown. Slightly more detail here.
    .
  • Less than 3% is pretty rare. Do you think there is something male involved?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 7
    Boogie wrote: »
    Tucker Carlson from FOX news says white supremacy is a hoax. He should know. He is a white person. Story here

    By the way, why is it I am having a problem putting up proper links?

    Fixed link
    BroJames Purgatory Host (I think you’re not removing the pre-loaded ‘http://’ either by deleting it first, or by ensuring that it is selected and pasting over it. Have a go on the practice thread in Styx.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Sorry for the double post. I had meant to add this to the previous post, but I used up my time to edit it again.

    There appears to be a contagion effect to these shootings. One of them leads to another. They found similar problems with suicides: a suicide of a prominent person seems to give permission for other people to commit suicides themselves.

    Did Gilroy lead to El Paso lead to Dayton? The former girlfriend(?) of the Dayton shooter claims that he had a fascination with other mass shootings. On their first date, he was showing her videos of the Pittsburg shootings. (must be a new variation of 'Do you want to come up and see my sketches?').

    Could the suicide of Soarise Kenndy Hill have added to the contagion in that it does seem mass shooters know they are likely to be killed?

    Speculation on my part, granted.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 7
    It's not just white supremacy. There's something male and man going on. There are millions of women who have bigger and real problems which might justify the level of anger that motivates violence, but I've never heard of one of them doing a mass shooting.

    Yeah, that Carlson son of a bitch being a white middle class male is kinda well he would wouldn't he? May be the help could read from his script.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    The prominent masculinities sociologist Michael Kimmel called Angry White Men which investigates the role white men play in these kinds of instances. It is a uniquely white man phenomenon, which is due to many factors. Amongst these are perceived decreasing social standing, lack of community cohesion, poor societal grasp of masculine emotions and emoting, and then the general economic woes eating us all.

    Personally, I think a lot of it comes down to the issue of social groups. There really aren’t as many public social groups as there used to be, which means there’s an increased sense of social alienation. Belonging to one of these groups provides for community, and all of the benefits that comes with that.

    I also think that ascribing to an ideology that’s constructed around the simple proposition “White people are the best forever and always” is an easy way to ground thinking in an increasingly ideologically complicated age. If you’re not inclined to learn what “non-white people” means and who these people are, then clinging to white man supremacy is easy. It also has the nifty power that many traditional values fall out of white supremacy. Although they exist, it’s rather rare to come across queer or gay people who are white supremacist, etc.

    Now, what do we do about all of that? No idea.
  • You've got to be carefully taught to hate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAZ8yOFFbAc


    James Michener, and Rogers and Hammerstein insisted that the song remain in the musical South Pacific. Sixty-one years later....
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    You know, I wonder about this. I grew up with a racist father. (Oddly, I'm not sure about my mother.) He was not a violent man -- in fact, he was the stereotypical "gentleman" of his generation -- code of honor, stiff upper lip, invariably courteous to everyone, modest, thoughtful, respectful, considerate, the whole nine yards. The n-word would never have crossed his lips. But he was also absolutely convicted of the notion that "people should stick to their own kind." During the civil rights unrest of the 50s and 60s, he told me that all the upheaval showed that African Americans weren't "ready" for full citizenship (!!).

    Meanwhile, on the street where we lived -- a spot where several different neighorhoods abutted -- we had kids from families recently arrived in the US, black kids, Asian kids, Jewish kids, Irish Catholic kids, Polish kids, Wasp kids, Italian kids -- 2 or 3 of any "brand" you want to name, but not enough of any one brand to dominate. All our parents were busily telling all of us, "Don't you play with X or Y or Z," (and we told each other this!) but we did. We had to. Who else was there to play with? We kind of formed our own society of Kids Against the Parents, so we could get up enough players to form Red Rover teams or play dodgeball or statues or whatever.

    This was in elementary school. Would our fellowship have broken down as we grew older? Were we not "carefully-enough taught?" I don't know. My family joined the "white flight" to the suburbs once I finished 3rd grade. I still remember and cherish those early friendships, though.
  • Interesting Ohher. My father fled with his family from Germany in late March 1938 just after Austria was annexed. They went to the far east, getting out of Hong Kong just before Christmas 1941. The opposite of your father I think, we were so carefully taught to accept others to the point that only one of his children married a white person. We are Chinese, Black, First Nations, White.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    It's not just white supremacy. There's something male and man going on. There are millions of women who have bigger and real problems which might justify the level of anger that motivates violence, but I've never heard of one of them doing a mass shooting.

    Could it be because in the Myth of Redemptive Violence (or, if you prefer, the Myth of the Righteous Gunslinger) the person solving all of their problems by shooting everyone else is (almost invariably) male?
  • Jane R wrote: »
    It's not just white supremacy. There's something male and man going on. There are millions of women who have bigger and real problems which might justify the level of anger that motivates violence, but I've never heard of one of them doing a mass shooting.

    Could it be because in the Myth of Redemptive Violence (or, if you prefer, the Myth of the Righteous Gunslinger) the person solving all of their problems by shooting everyone else is (almost invariably) male?
    I've heard of this. Know little about it. Is it general or more of America?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    This was in elementary school. Would our fellowship have broken down as we grew older? Were we not "carefully-enough taught?" I don't know. My family joined the "white flight" to the suburbs once I finished 3rd grade. I still remember and cherish those early friendships, though.
    You learned from outside, but that does not completely exonerate racism coming from parents.
    My early childhood was spent in a mixed group as well. Only my parents, nor any other adult as far as I know, ever spoke of race. Not even in the "we never speak of race" whilst doing so in code. It simply was not a factor. We could see that we were different to each other, but it was of no more import than hair colour, height or any other physical description.
    I learned of racism when we moved to a less insulated environment. And the children I met there definitely learned from their parents.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Oh, I know my father's (and/or the general culture's) influence is alive in me. When I hear colleagues speaking of a new hire I haven't met yet, do I automatically form a mental picture of someone of my own race? Yes. When I'm reviewing the names of students in my fall classes, do I make assumptions about race/ethnicity based the names their parents gave them? Yes. Am I wrong in these mental pictures and assumptions? About 50% of the time. Have I learned not to make such assumptions / form such images? I'm working on it. 74 years and counting, hoping to beat the cut-off.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Tell me about it. I had a student named Sapphire not long ago. Guess how I pictured her -- African-American. Guess how she looked? Blonde, blue-eyed paleface.

    I mostly review names in hope of not mangling them too badly on Day 1 when taking attendance. Also it's step 1 to learning their names, which is Very Important, and which I insist students do with me. No altering of international students' names is allowed (except by order of the student him/her/their/fill-in-your-own/self).
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I had a Japanese American friend when I was in college (he still is, but I don't stay in touch as much). Once my parents were discussing interracial marriage. I asked them if Lester were female, would they have supported our marriage. They were totally against the idea at the time.

    My daughter married a Filipino. My wife and I had no objection. Mom and Dad accepted Elmer with little hesitation.

    My granddaughter dates kids of all colors. She has no concern about appearances.

    So much for generational changes.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Whammy is that ‘So much for generational changes’?
    I would think that was an example of generational change
  • lilbuddha wrote: »

    Names. (courtesy of Key and Peele)
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Key and Peele are so awesome.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited August 8
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    Names. (courtesy of Key and Peele)
    Curse you, spent half an hour scrolling through vids. They are genius.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Drat Can't access them.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Here's a link that should work in the US.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Thanks, Dave W.

    Methinks the lack of activity on this thread may indicate something important about white supremacy.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    Thanks, Dave W.

    Methinks the lack of activity on this thread may indicate something important about white supremacy.
    This site is mostly white people. Talking about white supremacy makes white people uncomfortable.

  • Speak for yourselves only.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Indeed.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Jesus wept.
    It is natural that people do not like things which put them, or the groups they belong to, in a bad light.
    This obviously doesn't mean each and every person within that group, but it is a natural, human trait.
    White supremacy, indeed xenophobia in general, is on the rise. This means that nearly everyone will know "good" people who are at least a little bit more vocally racist than they were before.
    If one are white and not troubled by this, one is racist, ignorant beyond reasonable or mental.
    People, in general, do not like to confront uncomfortable things and racist people popping out of the woodwork should make people uncomfortable.
    To black and brown people, this racism is not news. To a lot of white people it is. It shouldn't be, but people often do not see what they do not have to.
    Most of the contributors to this thread are white. So, obviously, the level of melanin in one's skin does not preclude talking about white supremacy.
    But it does mean that, humans being what they are, paler people are less likely to have noticed the racism around them. And that this increase is not an increase in its existence, but in its willingness to speak out.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    Thanks, Dave W.

    Methinks the lack of activity on this thread may indicate something important about white supremacy.
    This site is mostly white people. Talking about white supremacy makes white people uncomfortable.

    Not that exactly, more that those of us who live in places that are almost completely white and don't encounter enough people of colour to speak with a degree of authority about any subconscious prejudices we might have. Colour just isn't really on my agenda as something significant, because I have the privilege to be somewhere it isn't. I obviously deplore white supremacist ideology but it is very much a thing that happens Over There.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    It is the white areas that voted most strongly for Brexit. Because one doesn't have to confront the more visible aspects doesn't mean something doesn't exist.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is the white areas that voted most strongly for Brexit. Because one doesn't have to confront the more visible aspects doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

    Not here. We voted heavily for remain, but don't let the facts get in the way. In any case, unless I actually encounter racism in myself or others (and in the latter case I challenge it) I'm not sure what you're actually asking for.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited August 10
    It’s not news to me that Britain has many areas of institutional racism, and that many people also encounter direct racism in everyday life. There also seems to be more promotion of overt white supremacist ideology since the financial crash - which fits with the general pattern of extremism rising during periods of economic stress.

    I suppose I would say that how we oppose this is via political activism and challenging it where we encounter it - and sometimes that will be in our own habits of thought.

    But I struggle with the ‘let’s discuss this’. I mean what, specifically ? If you want to point to this policy, that institution, some piece of rhetoric - we can. But the op amounts to, “its shit isn’t it” well, yes it is.

    I’m not going to try to defend Trumpism, or the hostile environment policy in the UK. Or Brexit and it’s associated bullshit.

    I live in a remain area, but I have had to march through the streets of my city to counter protest the white nationalists who decided to come here to demonstrate. I vote for the least racist party I can find with a chance to govern. I live and work alongside, and for, people of multiple ethnicities and backgrounds. I do my best to ensure that the people I train and supervise are aware of these issues.

    I suppose my default assumption is that most people who consider racism to be a problem do this. Conversely, I try not to jump straight into threads like this here and elsewhere on the internet - because of a lot of what I read on social media is about the need for ‘allies’ (hate that term but whatever) not to centre themselves, and make the discussion about them and what they do/feel.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is the white areas that voted most strongly for Brexit. Because one doesn't have to confront the more visible aspects doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

    Not here. We voted heavily for remain, but don't let the facts get in the way.
    That isn't a "fact getting in the way". SImply because one area bucks a trend, it doe not then disprove the trend.
    In any case, unless I actually encounter racism in myself or others (and in the latter case I challenge it) I'm not sure what you're actually asking for.
    I am not asking for anything. I merely commented on the comment about why this thread has so little traffic.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    It’s not news to me that Britain has many areas of institutional racism, and that many people also encounter direct racism in everyday life. There also seems to be more promotion of overt white supremacist ideology since the financial crash - which fits with the general pattern of extremism rising during periods of economic stress.

    I suppose I would say that how we oppose this is via political activism and challenging it where we encounter it - and sometimes that will be in our own habits of thought.

    But I struggle with the ‘let’s discuss this’. I mean what, specifically ? If you want to point to this policy, that institution, some piece of rhetoric - we can. But the op amounts to, “its shit isn’t it” well, yes it is.

    I’m not going to try to defend Trumpism, or the hostile environment policy in the UK. Or Brexit and it’s associated bullshit.

    I live in a remain area, but I have had to march through the streets of my city to counter protest the white nationalists who decided to come here to demonstrate. I vote for the least racist party I can find with a chance to govern. I live and work alongside, and for, people of multiple ethnicities and backgrounds. I do my best to ensure that the people I train and supervise are aware of these issues.

    I suppose my default assumption is that most people who consider racism to be a problem do this.
    But I do not think this is true. Most people who see an injustice quietly disapprove.
    Conversely, I try not to jump straight into threads like this here and elsewhere on the internet - because of a lot of what I read on social media is about the need for ‘allies’ (hate that term but whatever) not to centre themselves, and make the discussion about them and what they do/feel.
    There is a balance. One that is not alawys clear or agreed upon, unfortunately.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is the white areas that voted most strongly for Brexit. Because one doesn't have to confront the more visible aspects doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

    Not here. We voted heavily for remain, but don't let the facts get in the way.
    That isn't a "fact getting in the way". SImply because one area bucks a trend, it doe not then disprove the trend.
    In any case, unless I actually encounter racism in myself or others (and in the latter case I challenge it) I'm not sure what you're actually asking for.
    I am not asking for anything. I merely commented on the comment about why this thread has so little traffic.

    You made an accusation based on flimsy evidence and implied that we would have something to add to the thread if it weren't for your claimed reason. I'm asking what you thought would be in the thread if we weren't scared as you suggest.

    And no, my area didn't "buck" the trend. It followed the trend across Scotland in voting strongly for remain. It is England that dragging us out, and in fact many of the biggest leave-voting areas are almost as lily-white as rural Scotland - it's just that a lot of those white folk are Poles, Romanians, Latvians...

    Not all racism is about white supremacy (talk to Wegies some time about the intersection of sectarianism and anti-Irish racism).
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited August 10
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is the white areas that voted most strongly for Brexit. Because one doesn't have to confront the more visible aspects doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

    Not here. We voted heavily for remain, but don't let the facts get in the way.
    That isn't a "fact getting in the way". SImply because one area bucks a trend, it doe not then disprove the trend.
    In any case, unless I actually encounter racism in myself or others (and in the latter case I challenge it) I'm not sure what you're actually asking for.
    I am not asking for anything. I merely commented on the comment about why this thread has so little traffic.

    You made an accusation based on flimsy evidence and implied that we would have something to add to the thread if it weren't for your claimed reason.
    I did not make an accusation, I made an observation. One that you do not like which underlines my basic point, people do not like their sense of self challenged.
    I'm asking what you thought would be in the thread if we weren't scared as you suggest.

    And no, my area didn't "buck" the trend. It followed the trend across Scotland in voting strongly for remain. It is England that dragging us out, and in fact many of the biggest leave-voting areas are almost as lily-white as rural Scotland - it's just that a lot of those white folk are Poles, Romanians, Latvians...
    I well know how Scotland votes, but that does not change my basic point. And I did add xenophobia in my posts, which you seem to have missed.
    It seems to me that you are missing much of what I am saying.
    I never said scared, I said uncomfortable. That is a tell in how you appear to be reading what I am writing.
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