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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Skepticism about US intelligence claims equates to disloyalty? Are you seriously arguing that? Or is it just these particular intelligence claims, because...?

    Wot Croesos said. The Mueller Report is solid. In the interests of full disclosure, I stayed at Hotel Mueller in Bavaria earlier this year.

    Well, 1. I wasn’t talking about the Mueller report but of the senate report regarding Russia hacking into voting systems; 2. You have no way of knowing if the Mueller Report is “solid” or not; 3. the actual instances of “Russian interference” in the Mueller report are decidedly underwhelming and make the “Trump is a Russian puppet” shrieking look very silly.

    And Mueller gleefully participated in the Iraq war deception so those who take him at face value are suckers indeed.

    sure I do Sir P. Its called trust in the institutions of the American Govt, my own Govt. and the mainstream media. That's how we know things in this world, we choose what institutions to trust while at the same time maintaining a critical attitude.

    What institutions do you rely on for your information? Is it the Republican party?

    I fear you are being unjust to Mr Mueller concerning Iraq. As I understand things from my reading, Dick Cheney has a particular view and he sought information that supported that view while discarding other sources of information. Bureaucrats like Mr Mueller had little capacity to influence his thinking. Do you have a specific allegation of wrongdoing to put or is it just the golf club membership again?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    You said, "I too would be in favor of the constitution getting ripped up and rewritten . . ." As written, the three branches are supposed to be co-equal, with legislative oversight of executive authority.

    I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. The men who wrote the U.S. Constitution would likely be surprised to hear the different branches of the government as "co-equal". They viewed Congress as preeminent among the branches, though its power was supposed to be checked in various ways. Regarding the branches of the U.S. federal government as co-equal is a modern interpretation.

    Yeah. Which is why you might consider bolding the rest of the sentence: ". . .with legislative oversight of executive authority."
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited July 2019
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Skepticism about US intelligence claims equates to disloyalty? Are you seriously arguing that? Or is it just these particular intelligence claims, because...?

    Wot Croesos said. The Mueller Report is solid. In the interests of full disclosure, I stayed at Hotel Mueller in Bavaria earlier this year.

    Well, 1. I wasn’t talking about the Mueller report but of the senate report regarding Russia hacking into voting systems; 2. You have no way of knowing if the Mueller Report is “solid” or not; 3. the actual instances of “Russian interference” in the Mueller report are decidedly underwhelming and make the “Trump is a Russian puppet” shrieking look very silly.

    And Mueller gleefully participated in the Iraq war deception so those who take him at face value are suckers indeed.

    sure I do Sir P. Its called trust in the institutions of the American Govt, my own Govt. and the mainstream media. That's how we know things in this world, we choose what institutions to trust while at the same time maintaining a critical attitude.

    So trust the institutions that, within the living memory of millennials, a) launched a pointlessly and horrifically destructive war on the basis of lies b) illegally surveilled their own citizens c) tortured detainees d) relentlessly prosecuted those who exposed the above crimes.

    J Edgar Hoover’s FBI is not and has never been a friend of dissidents or the left.

    There are more ways to go through life than licking boots.
    What institutions do you rely on for your information? Is it the Republican party?

    Yes, the only possible alternative to uncritically relying on one corrupt institution is to uncritically rely on another.
    I fear you are being unjust to Mr Mueller concerning Iraq. As I understand things from my reading, Dick Cheney has a particular view and he sought information that supported that view while discarding other sources of information. Bureaucrats like Mr Mueller had little capacity to influence his thinking. Do you have a specific allegation of wrongdoing to put or is it just the golf club membership again?

    Since the initials “FBI” carry automatic credibility for you, here’s an FBI veteran’s account: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5936a148e4b033940169cdc8

  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited July 2019
    Putin won the Presidency. Using the IRA and GRU. And Trump said he'd use foreign intel. The GRU didn't make stuff up; he wasn't duped. They just hacked it and made sure he got it. The crime is what?
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited July 2019
    !
  • Oh heavens now I read Trump claimed he was on site helping at 911 rescue. Does he really believe all the things he says? I do not know which is worse, he is telling lies knowingly or he thinks stuff really happens.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Where did you come across this, Graven Image?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Just got a friend request from a Russian. I can find no direct or indirect connection with this man. Denied request
  • Here is one of many links I found.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Just got a friend request from a Russian. I can find no direct or indirect connection with this man. Denied request

    Undoubtedly the Kremlin is in an uproar over this major intelligence defeat.

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Just got a friend request from a Russian. I can find no direct or indirect connection with this man. Denied request

    You missed out. I had a stranger from Nigeria contact me. Some kind of prince, in fact. I expect my correspondence with him to be quite profitable, eventually. As SirPalomides points out strangers on the internet are always either harmless or benevolent.
    Oh heavens now I read Trump claimed he was on site helping at 911 rescue. Does he really believe all the things he says? I do not know which is worse, he is telling lies knowingly or he thinks stuff really happens.

    For the record "down there" on 9/11 apparently means "calling in to Channel 9 News to promote your properties in the wake of a tragedy".
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    This is a pretty good way of subverting borders though.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Eutychus wrote: »
    This is a pretty good way of subverting borders though.

    Heyyyy! All you need is trampolines!

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    For those who are shocked and appalled at what Donald Trump has done to the wonderful party of Ronald Reagan...
  • stetson wrote: »
    For those who are shocked and appalled at what Donald Trump has done to the wonderful party of Ronald Reagan...

    Thanks @Stetson- really good read.
  • edited July 2019
    Link to short Instagram video of children on teeter-totter (seesaws) through the trump border wall. https://www.instagram.com/p/B0fY2R6hfKr/
  • stetson wrote: »
    For those who are shocked and appalled at what Donald Trump has done to the wonderful party of Ronald Reagan...

    Reagan was a monster who presided over one of the more corrupt and destructive periods of American reaction. Any time an ostensibly "liberal" politician says anything nice about him my respect for that person drops precipitously. Of course his racist remarks are the least of his evils.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    ECraigR wrote: »
    FWIW, I meant “rip up” more metaphorically. As an archivist I can’t abide by any Old and Important document being physically destroyed. The constitution should certainly be periodically reviewed and rewritten, though. Thomas Jefferson agrees with me! I don’t have the cite for it off the top of my head, but he advocated for the constitution being rewritten every twenty years or something.

    One of the Founding Guys--possibly TJ--said we'd periodically need a bloody revolution...more or less to keep us focused, I think, and to keep the seriousness of the original Revolution fresh.

    I really hope that founder was wrong.
  • Jefferson said that, while Shays' rebellion was going on. Of course I don't think he actually objected to the suppression of said rebellion.

    As for another bloody revolution, not going to happen any time soon. Some Americans like to talk a big game about civil war, rebellion, this or that, but they have no real concept of the kind of suffering that would entail. If they tried to start something it would fizzle out in weeks. Once they ran into the inevitable, non-sexy problems like "Where do we get our water?" they would give up their arms for the reliable comforts of prison.
  • Reagan was a monster who presided over one of the more corrupt and destructive periods of American reaction. Any time an ostensibly "liberal" politician says anything nice about him my respect for that person drops precipitously. Of course his racist remarks are the least of his evils.

    Do you think if either Nixon or Reagan was running in the current day that their personal beliefs on economics, domestic policy, foreign/trade policy, or racial/social issues would better align with those of the modern Republican Party, either post-Trump or pre-Trump, than with those that they espoused in public in their own eras? I know they both made full use of dog whistles and Reagan especially would have wanted to enact a more economically neoliberal and socially conservative agenda than even what he tried to do had he not had to compromise with a Democratic Congress. But as reactionary as many of their private and not-so-private views may have been, I'm not sure that they would feel at home in the current party, even in its Tea-Party-Pre-Trump incarnation. They might fall in line with it to get elected, but I think their skin would be crawling, perhaps more because of the Party's tactics and, especially under Trump, its style, than because of its goals. They would be equally if not more shocked and horrified by how far the Democratic Party his shifted on social issues, though (FYI: I myself am pretty happy with where the Democratic Party is on those issues.)
  • Yeah, what really separates Trump from Reagan is the lack of gentility. Reagan didn't actually make anything better but he certainly made a lot of Americans feel nice. He had disasters and scandals at least as bad as anything Trump has so far but he had a skill for smoothing it all over with smiles and comforting platitudes. I mean, the bar for American political oratory isn't very high but Reagan was Demosthenes compared to Trump. Reagan also knew how to get the press on his side, which wasn't hard- after that brief and rowdy moment in the 70's, the press was eager to get back on the establishment wagon. For Trump though the hatred of the press is more politically useful. His base love it and the screeching is so constant and so unfocused that nothing seems to stick.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Reagan certainly had Trump-like moments, though the popular "ketchup is a vegetable in school lunches" rumor is apparently not his doing. I can easily picture Trump suggesting that DeVos get that through pronto, though.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Skepticism about US intelligence claims equates to disloyalty? Are you seriously arguing that? Or is it just these particular intelligence claims, because...?

    Wot Croesos said. The Mueller Report is solid. In the interests of full disclosure, I stayed at Hotel Mueller in Bavaria earlier this year.

    Well, 1. I wasn’t talking about the Mueller report but of the senate report regarding Russia hacking into voting systems; 2. You have no way of knowing if the Mueller Report is “solid” or not; 3. the actual instances of “Russian interference” in the Mueller report are decidedly underwhelming and make the “Trump is a Russian puppet” shrieking look very silly.

    And Mueller gleefully participated in the Iraq war deception so those who take him at face value are suckers indeed.

    sure I do Sir P. Its called trust in the institutions of the American Govt, my own Govt. and the mainstream media. That's how we know things in this world, we choose what institutions to trust while at the same time maintaining a critical attitude.

    So trust the institutions that, within the living memory of millennials, a) launched a pointlessly and horrifically destructive war on the basis of lies b) illegally surveilled their own citizens c) tortured detainees d) relentlessly prosecuted those who exposed the above crimes.

    J Edgar Hoover’s FBI is not and has never been a friend of dissidents or the left.

    There are more ways to go through life than licking boots.
    What institutions do you rely on for your information? Is it the Republican party?

    Yes, the only possible alternative to uncritically relying on one corrupt institution is to uncritically rely on another.
    I fear you are being unjust to Mr Mueller concerning Iraq. As I understand things from my reading, Dick Cheney has a particular view and he sought information that supported that view while discarding other sources of information. Bureaucrats like Mr Mueller had little capacity to influence his thinking. Do you have a specific allegation of wrongdoing to put or is it just the golf club membership again?

    Since the initials “FBI” carry automatic credibility for you, here’s an FBI veteran’s account: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5936a148e4b033940169cdc8

    Sorry, been busy. In relation to the first issue, yes I trust the institutions of the US Govt. despite the issues you raise. I'm sorry that you have let those issues cloud your judgement on a range of matters where you do not have the right of things.

    In relation to the Huff Post article the author is mistaken as to the scope of action someone in Mueller's position had concerning the events around the Iraq war. Mueller's obligation was to put his view to the decision makers, not to criticise or make public comment about policy matters. That's for the Administration and Politicians opposed to the policy. That is why Mueller is so credible, because he knows his role and fulfils it. That's also why the Mueller Report is so credible. He didn't have the info necessary to conclude a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russians, so that's what he said. If he was corrupt or bias, no doubt he would have written his report in a way that left the issue open.

    I have a rule, when assessing the reliability of writers: are they right on the issues I am familiar with. If they are not, then I disregard what they say about stuff I don't know about. It usually steers me right.
  • Finally some good news from trumpy! He's announcing that they're going to end AIDS and cure children's cancer! https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1157092013965266944?s=20

    How wonderful!!
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 2019
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Sorry, been busy recovering from a sprained tongue after the annual Bootlickers Convention. In relation to the first issue, yes I trust the institutions of the US Govt. despite the issues you raise. I'm sorry that you have let those issues cloud your judgement on a range of matters where you do not have the right of things a knowledge of facts and history interfere with complacent faith in authority.

    Fixed that for you.
    In relation to the Huff Post article the author is mistaken as to the scope of action someone in Mueller's position had concerning the events around the Iraq war. Mueller's obligation was to put his view to the decision makers, not to criticise or make public comment about policy matters. That's for the Administration and Politicians opposed to the policy. That is why Mueller is so credible, because he knows his role and fulfils it. That's also why the Mueller Report is so credible. He didn't have the info necessary to conclude a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russians, so that's what he said. If he was corrupt or bias, no doubt he would have written his report in a way that left the issue open.

    I'm glad to hear that, from an Australian armchair, you are able to get a better grasp of the inner workings of the FBI than someone who worked in the FBI for years. I mean, did you actually read the article?
    I have a rule, when assessing the reliability of writers: are they right on the issues I am familiar with. If they are not, then I disregard what they say about stuff I don't know about. It usually steers me right.

    Here's another rule- institutions that have a known history of lying to the public and prosecuting whistleblowers, who have never demonstrated any contrition or accountability for these lies, should be heard with immense skepticism.


  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Sorry, been busy recovering from a sprained tongue after the annual Bootlickers Convention. In relation to the first issue, yes I trust the institutions of the US Govt. despite the issues you raise. I'm sorry that you have let those issues cloud your judgement on a range of matters where you do not have the right of things a knowledge of facts and history interfere with complacent faith in authority.

    Fixed that for you.
    <snip>

    Host hat on
    @SirPalomides, please don’t put your interpretation of another poster’s words into their mouth, it doesn’t make for good debate, and unnecessarily confuses threads. If you’ve got an issue with what they’ve said then come out with it directly.

    Further, the first sentence of your reworked version of Simon Toad’s post is dangerously close to personal attack. If you need to attack a poster in person then Hell* is the place to do it, not Purgatory. (*All the usual warnings about posting in Hell apply.)

    Host hat off
    BroJames, Purg Host
  • Is there any place online (that isn't full of trolls and that doesn't require revealing your real identity like facebook) where someone anti-Trump like myself can engage in a conversation with a non-rabid Trump supporter or on-the-fence-about-Trump-but-still-considering-voting-for-him person? I feel like when I talk politics online I'm either in a liberal echo chamber or in a place where the trolls come out very soon and ruin any conversation. (In real life, I'm almost always in a liberal echo chamber.)
  • I'm going say, probably not. I mean, there are intelligent conservatives out there (like some of the people at The American Conservative) but they don't seem to be fans of Trump.
  • check the facebook group Planet America. Mostly Australians I think, mostly left, but some vocal right wingers.
  • Sir P, if you can distill some points you'd like me to respond to from the moderated post, please let me know.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    check the facebook group Planet America. Mostly Australians I think, mostly left, but some vocal right wingers.

    Thanks for the suggestion. I don't really use facebook that much now, though, other than to read what other people post.
  • The CBC has it that ICE agents rounded up 700 people at work. Which came in to my awareness at the same time that #GreenShirtGuy did. Green shirt guy restored my soul just quite a bit: https://twitter.com/RyanHillMI/status/1159218179647967232?s=20

    We all need to laugh. The devil cannot endure to be mocked.
  • The thing about the ICE raid in Mississippi is that they claim the raid had been in the works for more than a year. It also happened on the first day of school for the kids in Mississippi. Think of the disruption to a kid's life to find out one or both of the parents have been taken away in the raid. Reports now are that half of the detainees have been released with future court dates.
  • They had been planning for a year, yet made no provision for children who's parents were snatched? Here, cops in that situation go in with child protection workers so that kids are farmed out to appropriate carers. This must truly be a cowboy operation.
  • The Daily Beans podcast from August 9th (sorry can't link to just the episode) "Equinox boycott" - the last 20 minutes is an interview with a former border guard. It is deeply informative and disturbing.

    AFZ
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 2019
    Trump's new Job Approval Rating should scare the MAGA out of him.

    Have fixed that, I hope. BroJames Purgatory Host
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    edited August 2019
    Gramps49 wrote: »

    "Page not found."

    However, it's over a year until Election Day. I'm sure he'll have something up his sleeve as an "October Surprise." Unlike last time, I'm not counting on any polls or predictions, maybe not even on the morning after Election Day. When I see him in his helicopter flying away from his opponent's Inauguration, then I'll believe. (I wonder if Melania will be in the same helicopter?)

    Fixed broken code in quoted link. BroJames Purgatory Host
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Trump's new Job Approval Rating should scare the MAGA out of him.

    Have fixed that, I hope. BroJames Purgatory Host

    My heart leaps up. Still, it's loo-oo-ong way to Novemebr 2020.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The thing is why pit him up for a second term?
    At least he only has two terms. Not the same for our Prime Minister
  • Hugal wrote: »
    At least he only has two terms.

    He's trying to figure out how to get around that little technicality.
    :fearful:

  • Do you mean that he has his people working on it?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Thanks Stetson. A lot of the US coverage of the Trump-NK talks is just knee-jerk stuff with little consideration of what the South Koreans have been doing/ thinking. Trump may be an idiot and these talks may go nowhere but we should all hope that they work out.

    You're welcome! And I should read into the record that there are certainly right-wing South Koreans as well. Some of them were out in the streets welcoming Trump the other day, probably under the broad analysis of "Republican president = good guy".

    But from the conservative media organs, you can see that there is a bit of politely expressed distrust of Trump's dealings with the North Koreans, along the lines of "He might be selling out South Korea's security to the commies."

    And it's now official. Korean conservatives really do not like Trump.

    By the way, does anyone know when and where was Trump alleged to have made fun of Korean accents? That seems to have slipped under the US media's radar, or maybe just mine.

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    By the way, does anyone know when and where was Trump alleged to have made fun of Korean accents? That seems to have slipped under the US media's radar, or maybe just mine.

    That allegedly happened at a fundraiser hosted by Stephen Ross. Trump also (allegedly) mocked the accent of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe as well.
  • Wait, are you implying that our racist president is racist?
  • Another question. Would it be appropriate to chant "send her back!" when ever Melania trump makes an appearance?
    Why the maga migrant not?
  • Real Estate guru Trump ought to work out a DEAL to trade Puerto Rico (translated "Thorn-in-Side") for Greenland. Plenty of room for several
    upscale Golf Resorts. Pave the fairways and greens with artificial turf, but also introduce Ice Golf. If he ever retires from Presidenthood, he could just be King Donald of Greenland.

    Or, better yet: Just buy Mexico. Problem? Solved.
  • No the plan was to dump subsidized corn and other things into Mexico,ruin the agricultural subsistence economy, and create a system where poorly paid jobs making crap for the American consumer economy, migrating into the America or turning to the drug business are the options.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Seems like an odd thing for the Mexican government to agree to.
  • It is official. Farmers are selling their wheat and less than the cost of producing it, thanks to a certain Trade War initiated by you know whom. In my neck of the woods, it has cost farmers $5.50 per bushel to produce the wheat. They are selling it for $5.20. If it were not for the universities in our rea and one major electronic company we would be in full recession.
  • Another question. Would it be appropriate to chant "send her back!" when ever Melania trump makes an appearance?
    Why the maga migrant not?

    I think we absolutely should. And when her husband appears, we should chant "Lock him up!"
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