Anyone know what is happening in Hong Kong - why the violence?

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Comments

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    @SirPalomides Yes, among other sources. I have trouble believing that if it were just a Falun Gong outlook such reputable sources would cite it without explanation.

    What is your standing in all this?

  • I have no idea if any of it is true. That the PRC is capable for horrible things, I have no doubt. They have even admitted to sometimes harvesting organs from executed prisoners, though they claim to have ended the practice years ago. But before I believe this lurid horror story of mass executions and harvesting, I am going to have to see evidence from sources independent of the Falun Gong cult and its front groups, or other groups with a vested interest in undermining the PRC. The fact that the “China Tribunal” does not disclose this connection is a fundamental ethical failing that should arouse anyone’s suspicion. The fact that dozens of western media outlets repeated its findings without bothering to dig into this- information accessible to you and me with a few simple google searches- is emblematic of their continuing eagerness to promote anti-Chinese propaganda.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 24
    Gee D wrote: »
    SirPalomides, How about the open warfare on the Uighur people, the wide use of the death penalty wth public executions, the sale of internal organs, and the deepening oppression of Tibet. Mao would hav been pleased with all this.

    About the Uighurs and the Tibetans I have said enough elsewhere. Neither situation is nearly as dire as you put on, and in fact the Tibetans are flourishing. Tibetan monasteries get renovated (after earthquakes for instance) with state funds and get staffed with thousands of monks. Pilgrims visit them by the millions every year. You can find areas not only in the TAR but Qinghai and Gansu province where the people, the local government, the business owners, and the cops are all Tibetans and you are surrounded by Tibetan culture. As for the death penalty, I oppose it everywhere but what’s this about public executions? Where do you get this stuff? And of course the number of executions is appalling but Singapore and the state of Texas have comparable rates per capita. So I guess that means there is no basic distinction between Mao and the leadership of Texas.
  • I guess that means there is no basic distinction between Mao and the leadership of Texas.
    Given what's going on in Texas, this is not far from truth.
  • @Rossweisse it seems there is an apology for every Chinese sin. We have a few in Australia who stand up for China. Distressingly, many of the spokespeople are former Labor politicians, especially those who were instrumental in arguing for closer business ties with the country in the 1980's and '90's. The assumption was that greater prosperity would bring a liberalisation of the country's political system too. So far, that hasn't happened. Maybe we need to wait a bit longer.

    Australia's difficulty with China though is different to that of the United States. I mean really, the US shouldn't have any problem with China except that it, like most countries including the USA has substandard labor laws, giving it a competitive edge. Maybe the US should be using Free Trade Agreements to ratchet up wages and conditions for workers... (fantasising again).

    Australia's problem is that it has a close and longstanding defence relationship with the United States, but China is our biggest trading partner by far. So we have to walk a bit of a tightrope, limiting Chinese influence in our region, encouraging US defence assets to park here, which the Chinese really really don't like and maintaining access to their lovely and plentiful cash.

    Honestly, what would be really fantastic for Australia is if there was big big domestic trouble in China, forcing the leadership to focus on domestic issues again and limiting their capacity to play silly buggers in the South China Sea. That would be brilliant for our national interest.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    And of course the number of executions is appalling but Singapore and the state of Texas have comparable rates per capita. So I guess that means there is no basic distinction between Mao and the leadership of Texas.

    Well, I don't like the death penalty anywhere, but a distinction I would make is what people are being executed for. As far as I know, Texas executes people for murder only, but nothing else. Is capital-punishment in China limited to such eye-for-an-eye cases?

    And FWIW, I am no apologist for Singapore. They probably get a bit of a pass from the international community because their standard-of-living is fairly high, so most of their residents aren't much given to complaining if minorities and dissidents get shit on. Doesn't change the fact that the shitting-on is a real thing.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    What Simon Toad and stetson have said.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 24
    Simon Toad is simply repeating a century old racist trope in Australia about imminent Chinese invasion. It is a rising sentiment in Australian media outlets and I sometimes worry for my Chinese Australian family in NSW.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Simon Toad is simply repeating a century old racist trope in Australia about imminent Chinese invasion.
    He is? Where, exactly?
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 24
    See his above post. He is more explicit in another thread:
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ... I'm very pro- the US having the strongest military possible, almost all of it based in the Indo-Pacific. That's not going to happen of course but I was whooping and hollering at Obama's pivot to East Asia.

    I'm not just a happy militarist with a uniform fetish. I believe that the world is a very ugly place, and if the US withdrew from it, Australia would soon be under the de facto control of China, and the Chinese leadership are not kind people. Neither is the American leadership, by and large, but at least they respect our freedom (and protected it 70 years ago). Runs on the board, the US has from our perspective. I'm not forgetting the American sailors lying on the floor of the Coral Sea.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...

    But the version of hegemony practiced by the Americans is better than the version practiced by China. China does not allow you to form an unauthorised trade union, it doesn't allow you to set up your own church, and it doesn't allow you to talk about politics.
    ....

    Simon Toad wrote: »
    We are a giant mine and food barn downunder.

    And yeah, I'm the bloke at the top of the Ferris Wheel yelling "invasion". :wink:

    Anyone who has been on the receiving end of sinophobia/ yellow peril rhetoric knows the dog whistles a mile away. And in the current climate in Australia it is increasingly dangerous.



  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 24
    And the people who are harmed by sentiments like Simon’s are not the PRC leadership but Chinese Australians and Chinese students in Australia who are accused of being a fifth column for the PRC. Suddenly it’s not Xi Jinping but my cousins who are here to break your unions, demolish your churches, pillage your mines and granaries, and harvest your organs.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    I don't see it in the post you responded to, but you definitely have the receipts with that "invasion" quote.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    ...I am going to have to see evidence from sources independent of the Falun Gong cult and its front groups, or other groups with a vested interest in undermining the PRC. ...
    The PRC seems in fact to be the group promoting the idea that Falun Gong is in fact what has been labelled an "evil cult." (That was in the WSJ.) There are too many highly reputable news sources reporting on Chinese atrocities in terms of the treatment of "cults" for me to believe that it's all made up.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited August 24
    Simon Toad is simply repeating a century old racist trope in Australia about imminent Chinese invasion. It is a rising sentiment in Australian media outlets and I sometimes worry for my Chinese Australian family in NSW.

    He most certainly is not - not on this thread nor in the other quotations you've set out.
  • You can find plenty of testimony independent of the PRC that Falun Gong is bonkers and dangerous. Plenty of former adherents have published their testimonies online. If you don’t believe them you can go straight to Falun Gong’s own literature and Li Hongzhi’s dangerous karmic fatalism and disgusting racism. There were hundreds of weird qigong cults that sprang up in China in the 80’s (my mom was briefly involved in one), Falun Gong was just one of the bigger and crazier ones.

    WSJ is a right wing publication owned by Rupert Murdoch. I don’t know what you mean by “reputable” but a publication that uncritically disseminates Falun Gong propaganda lacks credibility.
  • A fine article from the New Yorker about Falun Gong and their omnipresent propaganda dance show Shen Yun: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/stepping-into-the-uncanny-unsettling-world-of-shen-yun
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 24
    If you really want to see how batshit crazy Falun Gong is, read this article from their own newspaper: https://m.theepochtimes.com/how-the-specter-of-communism-is-ruling-our-world-introduction_2547882.html

    Among other things, you will learn the evils of gender equality and the legalization of homosexuality, which are part of the Devil’s plot to lead us to communism.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    ...WSJ is a right wing publication owned by Rupert Murdoch. I don’t know what you mean by “reputable” but a publication that uncritically disseminates Falun Gong propaganda lacks credibility.
    However, the other major newspapers I read daily - the Guardian (International edition), New York Times, and Washington Post - seem to share those particular opinions, and they are neither tainted by the odious Murdochs nor right wing.

    I will ask again: What is your personal interest in this? With what mainland Chinese organizations are you affiliated?

  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 25
    Oof! You got me. I’m a Chinese spy. Comrade Xi promised that if I slander Falun Gong on the Ship of Fools forum he would consider not harvesting my family’s organs. Please join me in denouncing the evil cult Falun Gong. Grandpa likes his kidneys.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    edited August 25
    Oh, come off it. You consistently defend a demonstrably evil government, and slander reputable news organizations that do their homework. Grandpa's kidneys are probably too superannuated to be of much interest to the apparatchiks in any case.

    For further context: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/24/hong-kong-fresh-rallies-as-protesters-target-airport-transport
  • See his above post. He is more explicit in another thread:
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ... I'm very pro- the US having the strongest military possible, almost all of it based in the Indo-Pacific. That's not going to happen of course but I was whooping and hollering at Obama's pivot to East Asia.

    I'm not just a happy militarist with a uniform fetish. I believe that the world is a very ugly place, and if the US withdrew from it, Australia would soon be under the de facto control of China, and the Chinese leadership are not kind people. Neither is the American leadership, by and large, but at least they respect our freedom (and protected it 70 years ago). Runs on the board, the US has from our perspective. I'm not forgetting the American sailors lying on the floor of the Coral Sea.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...

    But the version of hegemony practiced by the Americans is better than the version practiced by China. China does not allow you to form an unauthorised trade union, it doesn't allow you to set up your own church, and it doesn't allow you to talk about politics.
    ....

    Simon Toad wrote: »
    We are a giant mine and food barn downunder.

    And yeah, I'm the bloke at the top of the Ferris Wheel yelling "invasion". :wink:

    Anyone who has been on the receiving end of sinophobia/ yellow peril rhetoric knows the dog whistles a mile away. And in the current climate in Australia it is increasingly dangerous.



    I'm usually pretty careful to limit my criticism of China to its Government. I am sensitive to the racist element in my culture, and well aware of the overt racism and small-scale goldfields pogroms Chinese people have been subject to in my country. None of my posts are explicitly or implicitly racist except my posts concerning the English.

    The reference to shouting invasion from the top of a ferris wheel was a self-deprecatory comment referring to the film 1941, hence the wink.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 25
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Oh, come off it. You consistently defend a demonstrably evil government,

    Nonsense. Even in this thread I have lodged many criticisms of the current PRC. Poking holes though in the self-serving, hysterical half-truths and lies propagated by Western media does not equate to defending the PRC. I’m reminded of how in 2003 anyone who questioned the WMD narrative was labeled a Saddam sympathizer.

    Speaking of defending demonstrably evil things, what did you think about that Specter of Communism article I posted from Falun Gong’s newspaper? Do you agree with them that evolution, feminism, homosexuality, environmentalism, race-mixing, and avant-garde art are all part of Satan’s plan to spread communism?
    and slander reputable news organizations that do their homework.

    They obviously aren’t doing their homework when they don’t bother to find out that the “independent tribunal” they uncritically cite was formed by Falun Gong. Again, I invite you to search down the list of ETAC management, starting from the top- Susie Hughes, Margo MacVicar, etc. All Epoch Times writers or Falun Gong organizers. Full disclosure is a basic ethical principle in journalism, law, business, etc. That China Tribunal is not upfront about these connections should raise alarm bells for anyone who isn’t reflexively anti-China.

    Instead of leaning on ad hominem “you must be a Chinese spy” arguments, why don’t you actually respond to the considerable difficulties I have raised for your narrative?




  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    See his above post. He is more explicit in another thread:
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ... I'm very pro- the US having the strongest military possible, almost all of it based in the Indo-Pacific. That's not going to happen of course but I was whooping and hollering at Obama's pivot to East Asia.

    I'm not just a happy militarist with a uniform fetish. I believe that the world is a very ugly place, and if the US withdrew from it, Australia would soon be under the de facto control of China, and the Chinese leadership are not kind people. Neither is the American leadership, by and large, but at least they respect our freedom (and protected it 70 years ago). Runs on the board, the US has from our perspective. I'm not forgetting the American sailors lying on the floor of the Coral Sea.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...

    But the version of hegemony practiced by the Americans is better than the version practiced by China. China does not allow you to form an unauthorised trade union, it doesn't allow you to set up your own church, and it doesn't allow you to talk about politics.
    ....

    Simon Toad wrote: »
    We are a giant mine and food barn downunder.

    And yeah, I'm the bloke at the top of the Ferris Wheel yelling "invasion". :wink:

    Anyone who has been on the receiving end of sinophobia/ yellow peril rhetoric knows the dog whistles a mile away. And in the current climate in Australia it is increasingly dangerous.



    I'm usually pretty careful to limit my criticism of China to its Government. I am sensitive to the racist element in my culture, and well aware of the overt racism and small-scale goldfields pogroms Chinese people have been subject to in my country. None of my posts are explicitly or implicitly racist except my posts concerning the English.

    The reference to shouting invasion from the top of a ferris wheel was a self-deprecatory comment referring to the film 1941, hence the wink.

    Oh, bullshit. Union organizers are targeted by death squads in Colombia on a constant basis, on behalf of American companies. The open air prison in Gaza is enforced with American weapons and funding. And how many churches do you think would be left in Syria if the US’s “moderate rebels” had won?

    But you’re so worried about Chinese invasion that you want the Pacific to be a giant US military base, and you are happy with fomenting strife in China itself, even if it means getting good people killed for nothing except your contentment that the buggers won’t be pouring into your neighborhood.

    And let’s be clear, the West doesn’t give a shit about the brave kids in Hong Kong, would love nothing more than for them to get slaughtered so that Hong Kong gets closed off as China’s economic release valve. The point is not to “free” Hong Kong (or East Turkestan or Tibet) but to cause China to collapse into a basket case like Russia, then Europe and America can swoop in and siphon out the wealth like they did to all the former Soviet states.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Is this another one of those cases where "the West" = "the US and UK state departments"?
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 25
    Dave W wrote: »
    Is this another one of those cases where "the West" = "the US and UK state departments"?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche

    Of course your quibble does not arise with regards to the comparable use of “China” and the “Chinese”... I wonder why.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    It's not a quibble, it's a question. Is that what you mean, or not?
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited August 25
    Mate, you alleged that my posts were racist. Now you refer to other shit going on elsewhere in the world. I think you are overreaching and then kicking up dust. Why not just apologise? Your post strongly suggests that you know you have done the wrong thing, but are covering it with aggro.
  • The whataboutery is thicker than pig shit in here.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Mate, you alleged that my posts were racist. Now you refer to other shit going on elsewhere in the world. I think you are overreaching and then kicking up dust. Why not just apologise? Your post strongly suggests that you know you have done the wrong thing, but are covering it with aggro.

    Your posts are racist. I’m not backing down from that because I understand the experience of Chinese Australians and I know your posts to be racist in subtext and intent. It is as obvious as when white Americans talk about “the inner city”.
  • So you not only know the experience of people you never met, but you also understand my intent! Are you the chosen one then, and not Donald Trump?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 25
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    ...WSJ is a right wing publication owned by Rupert Murdoch. I don’t know what you mean by “reputable” but a publication that uncritically disseminates Falun Gong propaganda lacks credibility.
    However, the other major newspapers I read daily - the Guardian (International edition), New York Times, and Washington Post - seem to share those particular opinions, and they are neither tainted by the odious Murdochs nor right wing.

    I will ask again: What is your personal interest in this? With what mainland Chinese organizations are you affiliated?

    I doubt Sir P. is a working for the 50 Cent Army or any such group. First off, if he were, he wouldn't be describing the Mao years in such negative terms, since Mao is still officially venerated in China, and it wouldn't serve the interests of a CPC front-group to acknowledge just what a supreme eff-up he was.

    I've had some experience with front-groups that advocate on behalf of a given nation, and they rarely, if ever, acknowledge anything bad about the fatherland. It's pretty much just non-stop rah-rah for whatever utopia they're defending.

  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    So you not only know the experience of people you never met, but you also understand my intent! Are you the chosen one then, and not Donald Trump?

    People I’ve never met, like my uncle, aunt, and cousins who live in the Sydney area?

    Here’s some context to Simon’s posts, that he probably hopes no one knows about: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2164326/canberras-ties-beijing-come-under-pressure-chinese-australians
  • stetson wrote: »
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    ...WSJ is a right wing publication owned by Rupert Murdoch. I don’t know what you mean by “reputable” but a publication that uncritically disseminates Falun Gong propaganda lacks credibility.
    However, the other major newspapers I read daily - the Guardian (International edition), New York Times, and Washington Post - seem to share those particular opinions, and they are neither tainted by the odious Murdochs nor right wing.

    I will ask again: What is your personal interest in this? With what mainland Chinese organizations are you affiliated?

    I doubt Sir P. is a working for the 50 Cent Army or any such group. First off, if he were, he wouldn't be describing the Mao years in such negative terms, since Mao is still officially venerated in China, and it wouldn't serve the interests of a CPC front-group to acknowledge just what a supreme eff-up he was.

    Indeed Deng’s 70% right, 30% wrong assessment of Mao is probably too harsh for the present leadership. I think Xi and company think they can mold his legacy in a benign revisionist direction. There is a new re-emphasis on communist ideology, including an anime series about young Karl Marx. I have no idea how sincere the present leadership is about it but considering the numbers of young people who are absorbing this stuff, they are playing with fire.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 25
    ^ re: 70% right 30% wrong

    Interestingly, that's the exact same assessment I heard attributed to Mao, about Stalin. Would you happen to know if that's a common phrase for "mostly good, a little bad" among Chinese Communists, or did Mao and Deng just happen to arrive at the same mathematical formula for their respective analyses?

    Some time in the early 90s, I saw a mainland-produced biopic about Mao, made around that same time, which portrayed him as a kindly old man, full of wise advice for his underlings, and wanting nothing but the best for the Chinese people.

    Tellingly, the story was related in flashbacks, during what was supposed to be a meeting between Mao and the children of an unnamed American president who had met with him(though unlike the implied real-life president, this one apparently had a son as well as a daughter). At one point, the presidential daughter informs Mao about how loved he is among the American people, and Mao later says something to the effect that China can learn a lot from the US.

  • I didn't know that Mao said the same thing about Stalin, but that makes sense since Stalin didn’t really support him and didn’t take the Chinese communists very seriously until the Korean War.

    I saw my family in Malaysia in 2016 and the Chinese TV channel they were watching seemed to be running different Mao soap operas back to back. One was focusing especially on his friendship with Zhou Enlai. It was all very romanticized and ennobling. These were all set in the civil war/ WWII periods, which I guess are a little less... complicated than the 50’s and 60’s.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Mate, you alleged that my posts were racist. Now you refer to other shit going on elsewhere in the world. I think you are overreaching and then kicking up dust. Why not just apologise? Your post strongly suggests that you know you have done the wrong thing, but are covering it with aggro.

    Your posts are racist. I’m not backing down from that because I understand the experience of Chinese Australians and I know your posts to be racist in subtext and intent. It is as obvious as when white Americans talk about “the inner city”.

    Host hat on
    @SirPalomides, you get to argue/point out that @Simon Toad’s posts are racist tropes and/or that what he is posting is or includes dog whistle stuff. Arguing, however, that he is intentionally racist as your above post does is a personal attack (as are semi-veiled insinuations that he is being disingenuous). That belongs in Hell, if you wish to pursue it - not in Purgatory.

    And can I remind everyone to remember Commandment 3 -attack the issue and not the person.
    Host hat off
    BroJames Purgatory Host
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    ...Instead of leaning on ad hominem “you must be a Chinese spy” arguments, why don’t you actually respond to the considerable difficulties I have raised for your narrative?
    I don't think you're a Chinese spy, and I didn't say you were. I don't buy the idea that all these news outfits are buying into propaganda; there is too much evidence for China's murder of dissidents for their organs. And even if Falun Gong really is the "evil cult" that the PRC's leaders labelled it, that should never carry a de facto death penalty as punishment - which it does.



  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    So you not only know the experience of people you never met, but you also understand my intent! Are you the chosen one then, and not Donald Trump?

    People I’ve never met, like my uncle, aunt, and cousins who live in the Sydney area?

    Here’s some context to Simon’s posts, that he probably hopes no one knows about: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2164326/canberras-ties-beijing-come-under-pressure-chinese-australians

    I think I've been pretty open about racism in Australia, the White Australia policy and our treatment of immigrants including people of Asian appearance and Aboriginal Australians. Its also true that attitudes to the Chinese Government are hardening, and I support that. I'm not sure that's led to an uptick in racist attacks or verbal abuse against people of Asian appearance. It may have, but I'm not seeing many stories on the commercial news about triads or sword-weilding Asian gangs like we did when the racist right were really having a go at the Vietnamese, but not really distinguishing between them and everyone who looked Asian.

    If you are not white in Australia, it is likely that you will think about the possibility of a racist encounter in public. You react as your personality dictates. A friend from Vietnam tends to react with aggro, but also avoids those sorts of situations. He's pushing 70 now, and lives in an area where such encounters are unlikely. Another friend from Sri Lanka reacts with fear, and thinks about it actively when he is in public. For example, if he has to walk through a pedestrian tunnel, he will wait until there are other people with him. He is afraid of getting bashed as there was a spate of vicious attacks against Indians about 10 years ago, including one on a high-profile doctor.

    If it is racist to attack the Chinese Government, then it is anti-Semitic to attack Israel, and anti-Semitic to support the BDS movement. There has been much discussion of that. I come down on the side that says that people who call BDS supporters racist are making a political attack and not a moral judgement too. I think that is what Sir P. is doing here.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 26
    There are plenty of legitimate and harsh criticisms to be made of the PRC. But when you talk about China coming to ban your churches and gobble up your mines, and cheer for the US navy to make the Pacific its personal swimming pool, and rejoice at the prospect of fomenting civil war in China itself... it clearly expresses an underlying pathology, especially considering the context in which you are speaking.

    I support the BDS movement. But if someone ostensibly connected to that movement starts talking about how the Zionists- not the Jews, mind you! It’s important to make these distinctions!- are plotting to rule my country, take all the resources, and brainwash us, in a context where Jewish people in my country are being accused of dual loyalty, then there is clearly much more at play here than legitimate criticism of the Israeli government.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I'm not seeing many stories on the commercial news about triads or sword-weilding Asian gangs like we did when the racist right were really having a go at the Vietnamese

    Canada also took in a number of Vietnamese refugees during the mid to late 70s, and there was a bit of racist venom directed against them at the time. Interestingly, despite being mostly anti-Communist, that geopolitical stance didn't seem to win them many friends among right-wing anti-immigration types, who would normally be the most vocal in praising anyone known to be an opponent of Communism.

    I'm wondering if how Chinese people in Australia generally identify politically, and what impact this has on the white majority's perception of them.



  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Here's a recent PSA from Canada about the Vietnamese refugees. Given that the ad is basically an exercise in self-congratulation, there is no reference to the racist reaction, though in fairness, that backlash didn't rise to the level of what's been seen against East Indians and Muslims.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited August 26
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    ...Instead of leaning on ad hominem “you must be a Chinese spy” arguments, why don’t you actually respond to the considerable difficulties I have raised for your narrative?
    I don't think you're a Chinese spy, and I didn't say you were. I don't buy the idea that all these news outfits are buying into propaganda; there is too much evidence for China's murder of dissidents for their organs.

    The Guardian article you cited names two sources: 1. the China Tribunal (set up by Falun Gong); 2. a Falun Gong activist who was also interviewed for the China Tribunal.

    The journalist Owen Bowcott could have saved himself a lot of time by simply posting a link to the China Tribunal's own website. Like this: https://chinatribunal.com/

    See, now I too am qualified to write for a reputable publication like the Guardian.

    And my point is not that the Guardian is a wholly unreliable source. They have a lot of good reporting. But, like every outlet, they have biases and blind spots. Hence, this Bowcott and his editors didn't bother to check into the connections of this China Tribunal. There is no such thing as a 100% trustworthy news source. There are few that are wholly worthless (Fox News comes to mind). Even state-run propaganda outlets like Al Jazeera or RT occasionally have decent reporting. But it is incumbent on the reader to exercise a certain amount of cross checking and interrogation, and not accept anyone's reporting on faith. One thing I look for is a journalist's ability to deal fairly with information that goes against the grain of his bias or that of his editors. A lot of Western liberals seem to think propaganda is something that happens in other countries, or dodgy outlets like Fox News or the Daily Mail.
    And even if Falun Gong really is the "evil cult" that the PRC's leaders labelled it, that should never carry a de facto death penalty as punishment - which it does.

    Note that I never once cited Xinhua, CGTN, or any other PRC state media. For Falun Gong, I cited an article from the New Yorker- hardly a PRC mouthpiece- and Falun Gong's own official newspaper.

    Of course Falun Gong being an insane, homophobic, racist, Trump-supporting sect does not justify any ill treatment or violence against their members. The PRC's hamfisted paranoia about unauthorized religious movements has done unquestionable harm to a lot of people. But I have my doubts about this mass organ harvesting narrative, not because I think the PRC is too nice to do such things but because the sources of this information I've seen can all be traced to Falun Gong and appear to, in some cases, deliberately obscure their Falun Gong connections.

  • stetson wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I'm not seeing many stories on the commercial news about triads or sword-weilding Asian gangs like we did when the racist right were really having a go at the Vietnamese

    Canada also took in a number of Vietnamese refugees during the mid to late 70s, and there was a bit of racist venom directed against them at the time. Interestingly, despite being mostly anti-Communist, that geopolitical stance didn't seem to win them many friends among right-wing anti-immigration types, who would normally be the most vocal in praising anyone known to be an opponent of Communism.

    I'm wondering if how Chinese people in Australia generally identify politically, and what impact this has on the white majority's perception of them.



    I think its a mixed bag Stetson. Chinese Australians have been here a long time. One of my friends has connections back to the gold rush, whereas my grandfather came from Blackpool as a nine-year old. There is a long history of Chinese settlement, that happened alongside European settlement.

    My guess is that Chinese Australians involved in commerce are likely to vote conservative but their are Chinese Australians on both sides of politics. One of our most senior Labour politicians is Penny Wong. I don't know about her family history, other than that she is Chinese Australian and a star.

    Sir P, I am not sure that I made it clear in that particular post that the threat to Australia from China is not imminent, but one we need to prepare for. All of my comments including those you refer to relate to the actions and prospective actions of the Chinese Govt. I do not hope for chaos in China again, but noted that it would distract the leadership from international matters such as the conflict in the Sth China Sea. This outcome is clearly in Australia's national interest.

    You are drawing a very long bow, Sir P. none longer than your claim that my desire to concentrate American power in the region is racist. I oppose China because of its Government and that Government's methods. That's it.

    I didn't quite follow what you were saying about BDS, but I think you agree with me.
  • "Simon wrote:
    You are drawing a very long bow, Sir P. none longer than your claim that my desire to concentrate American power in the region is racist.

    Your desire to concentrate American power in the region to prevent a supposed Chinese invasion is racist. Your preference that an Anglo power from halfway around the globe continue to menace and undermine China in its own backyard is racist. This is the mentality that murdered millions in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, propped up Suharto and Marcos, supported genocides in Indonesia and East Timor.

    The one really horrendous foreign intervention China engaged in, since the Korean war, was the invasion of Vietnam in support of Pol Pot, and their continued support of the Khmer Rouge through the 80's. A truly shameful policy which also happened to have quiet support from the US and UK (Thatcher talked about supporting "reasonable people" in the Khmer Rouge).

    Since that nasty episode with Vietnam, China has not invaded anyone, does not engage in "regime change" antics, does not foment chaos in the region or the world. Not that they are saints or lacking in sleazy connections (e.g. Pakistan, Sudan). But favoring the state that leaves a consistent trail of destruction all over the globe, instead of one that doesn't, because of some hazy fear of invasion by the latter that has no precedent and never been substantiated, bespeaks an underlying prejudice and not a reasoned concern for security. And the people who suffer the most from this are not the PRC leadership but Chinese Australians and other Chinese in the region who are targeted for discrimination, suspicion, and sometimes even pogroms. And of course the Koreans suffer too, since a peace deal that sticks on the Korean peninsula would remove a key justification for continuing the US militarization of the region.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 26
    And of course the Koreans suffer too, since a peace deal that sticks on the Korean peninsula would remove a key justification for continuing the US militarization of the region.

    It's interesting you bring up that particular issue, because this article appeared in the Korean media a few days back.

    For background, Park Jie-won was the chief presidential secretary to Kim Dae-jung, the leading liberal politician of his era, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his outreach to the DPRK.

    Kim Jong-il's quoted statements closely match other statements I've read about from North Korean leaders, though it's possible the same statements were mentioned in my earlier source.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 26
    This is the mentality that...supported genocides in Indonesia and East Timor.

    The west(including Australia, under secular saint Whitlam) certainly supported the invasion and subjugation of East Timor, but the "racism" angle is somewhat complicated by the fact that those policies also seem to have been very much what the Indonesian government itself wanted to do, and probably would have wanted to do, with or without US support.

    My understanding is that once the Portuguese left East Timor, the Indonesians just basically figured "Look, that place is so obviously part of our righful territory, there's no reason we shouldn't just be able to go in there and take it". Yeah, the western powers signed off on the invasion, on anti-Communist grounds, and arguably could have stopped it had they said, no, you can't do that. But I think the idea of reducing it to "White assholes going into Asia and slaughtering helpless locals" might be a bit oversimplified.

    And, I'd be interested to know what the average Indonesian thought about the annexation. That's a serious ponder, because I really don't know, though in my experience, those types of jingoistic land-grabs often tend to be pretty popular with the masses. Witness, for example, Argentina's seizure of the Falklands, which had wide support in that country, even among people who weren't otherwise supportive of the regime.


  • If that's true that's interesting and completely understandable. Korea and Vietnam have history with China and Japan that could make a faraway power look preferable to the one next door. For the same reason they never went along with the PRC's anti-Soviet freak-out. Living between 2 or more empires is never a fun position to be in. (Though I think the argument that the US "has not annexed other countries in its history" is a bit... questionable.)

    I wonder if Kim Jong-Un has inherited this perspective.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    (Though I think the argument that the US "has not annexed other countries in its history" is a bit... questionable.)

    Well, as far as this neck of the woods goes, I think the only place the US literally annexed for the purpose of long-term rule was the Philippines. And confining ourselves to North East Asia, nothing, in the sense of "If I wanted to go to that place, I'd need to get my visa from the US government."

    And remember, Kim Jong-il was talking about a future scenario in which the US and the DPRK are no longer at war, and the DPRK presumably trusts that the US won't make a move against them. One thing to consider as well is the idea that, in the event of a US withdrawal, Japan might want to ramp up its military, among other possibilities. (ROK forces are currently conducting military drills against Japan, or have just finished doing so.)


  • mate your argument around foreign policy perspectives is ludicrous. It is not racist to prefer a country which has a track record of intervening to prevent an invasion of your country, whose soldiers and sailors have fought alongside yours in battle after battle to a country that hasn't done that and who demonstrably does not share your values and is obviously a likely threat in the future.

    You do everyone a grave disservice by calling something racist which obviously isn't, while there is so much suffering from blatant racism. You are cheapening the term and weakening its force. Shame on you Mr P. You should think about the big picture before you make such foolish assertions in the future.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I'm wondering if how Chinese people in Australia generally identify politically, and what impact this has on the white majority's perception of them.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "identify politically". If it's in Australian domestic politics, probably across the spectrum. I imagine that those living around here - the families where petite women drive children to school in the de rigeur Maserati 4WDs - vote as conservatively as the vast majority of others. Those in the western suburbs would again be much as their neighbours and most would vote Labor. Maybe some of the younger generation would vote Green. (Simon Toad can speak better about voting Green outside NSW, where the Greens are pretty hard left and anti-semitic rather than tree-huggers.)
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