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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • Crœsos wrote: »
    On the other hand some have speculated that the impetus for the story originated with John Bolton. This kind of bureaucratic knife-fighting is his one competent governing skill skill and he's been at odds with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
    Annnnnnnnd Bolton has resigned/was fired. I have to admit, I did not see that coming. I figured Pompeo would go first. But, reading the article, clearly Trump would get rid of Bolton first--Bolton dares to think differently from Trump!

  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    Annnnnnnnd Bolton has resigned/was fired. I have to admit, I did not see that coming. I figured Pompeo would go first. But, reading the article, clearly Trump would get rid of Bolton first--Bolton dares to think differently from Trump!

    Surprised me too, but the firing just seems so . . . Trump. Despite Trump's claim that he asked Bolton for his resignation last night it seems pretty clear Bolton was just fired by tweet. If that's true it seems like quite the screw up that Bolton was still listed as being part of a press briefing with Pompeo and Mnuchin at 1:30 pm ET today. The fact that Bolton was allegedly fired because he opposed peace talks with the Taliban just makes it perfect. If you don't want someone who opposes peace on general principles, you don't hire John Bolton in the first place!
  • The discussions around about me is that trumpty will arrange to be "elected" again. It is likely isn't it?
  • Bolton, to me, is what I know as a chicken hawk. He continually wants to go to war to effect regime change, but he has no idea how to accomplish that. Though Rumsfeld took the fall for the Iraq War it was also the brainchild of Bolton. I am glad he is gone, but the question is who will want to replace him. 45 continues to burn through people, the turnstile does not have a chance to cool down.
  • Imagine you're right-wing and relatively high profile (with flexible ethics) and you get a call from a White House aide. If it was any other president you'd be thrilled but for working Trump - surely you'd have significant doubts after the 'churn' in his administration?
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited September 2019
    Inadvertent victim of a malevolent tweet from the person in question, an evangelical pastor publishes an open letter.

    (Found via a Washington Post article; subscriber-only access I think)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Another one to bite the dust today in the 45 administration is William Happer. He was a climate change denier who likened the attack on fossil fuels to the Holocaust. He was supposed to set up a panel to dismantle all the climate protection programs that the United States does have. Good bye. Don't let the door hit your behind as you leave.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Hang on a minute - Trump's actually fired a climate-change denier???

    Has he inadvertently done something sensible, or did Mr. Happer not deny it quite loudly enough?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Piglet wrote: »
    Hang on a minute - Trump's actually fired a climate-change denier???

    Has he inadvertently done something sensible, or did Mr. Happer not deny it quite loudly enough?

    According to the [url="Blob:https://www.msnbc.com/5fd5ab1d-0658-4d15-a2be-e8a6c363d8bc"]Rachel Maddow Show[/url] there was a whole slew people who abruptly left the NSA today.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    @Gramps49, I can fix the appearance of your link above, but it still gets ‘Page not found’.

    BroJames
    Purgatory Host
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Funny, I cannot pull it up either, sorry about that.
  • Just so we're clear, in case anyone is tempted to trot out the usual cliche...

    John Bolton was NOT one of The Adults In The Room.

    Creoses wrote:

    The fact that Bolton was allegedly fired because he opposed peace talks with the Taliban just makes it perfect. If you don't want someone who opposes peace on general principles, you don't hire John Bolton in the first place!

    My theory is that Trump's foreign policy is governed by two contradictory impulses: a) he is an isolationist who wants to avoid foreign military entanglements, and b) he wants the world to continue bowing to America as The Great Power. Bolton appealed to the latter longing, but was dangerously inconducive to the former.
  • Bolton also wanted to attack Iran for shooting down a drone--and we almost did, the planes were all but in the air when Trump demurred.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    45 got hit hard last night at the Democratic Debate. Cory Booker called 45 a racist. Beto called him a white supremacist. Kamala Harris said his tweets provided the ammunition for the recent mass shootings. She went further comparing him to the small dude behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. You don't question 45's manhood without him hitting back. I can imagine his retort already--Harris has blood coming out of her eyes. She is a mean lady. Typical fourth-grade responses.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Bolton also wanted to attack Iran for shooting down a drone--and we almost did, the planes were all but in the air when Trump demurred.

    If Elijah Magnier's anonymous Iranian sources are to be believed, Trump contacted Tehran through a third party and asked them if he could just bomb an empty beach. That way he could tell everyone he hit back but Iran wouldn't actually lose anyone. The Iranians made it clear they would not play that game.

  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Bolton also wanted to attack Iran for shooting down a drone--and we almost did, the planes were all but in the air when Trump demurred.

    If Elijah Magnier's anonymous Iranian sources are to be believed, Trump contacted Tehran through a third party and asked them if he could just bomb an empty beach. That way he could tell everyone he hit back but Iran wouldn't actually lose anyone. The Iranians made it clear they would not play that game.

    I can believe that story. He did the same thing when the Syrians used chemical weapons shortly after Trump came into office. Trump ordered a missle-strike on the airbase where the Syrian planes came from, but only after telling the Russians what the target was. That way the Syrians and Russians moved their planes elsewhere and we just hit empty bunkers.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    How devious is that? He really is in Uncle Vlad's pocket, isn't he?
  • If he were in Uncle Vlad's pocket he could have just repeated the Russian government's argument that the attack was staged by Al Qaeda.
  • except he always wants to pretend he's the tough guy.
  • Meanwhile, I am currently listening to/sort-of-watching "Firing Line" on PBS where Condoleezza Rice is being interviewed by Margaret Hoover. It's the 2nd Rice interview I've seen in the last 2 or 3 days.

    Somebody please reassure me that she's not angling for the job of T's next National Security Advisor in the administration. I never watch Fox News; can anybody tell me if she's been touting her new book on Fox?

    In the last 10 minutes she's mentioned that Trump was right to do XYZ on some foreign policy situation at least 3 times.

    I think I'm going to go throw up now.
  • If he were in Uncle Vlad's pocket he could have just repeated the Russian government's argument that the attack was staged by Al Qaeda.

    If Trump were taking his orders from the Kremlin, I think his foreign policy would be very different from what it is.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Maybe he'd have a foreign policy?
  • stetson wrote: »
    My theory is that Trump's foreign policy is governed by two contradictory impulses: a) he is an isolationist who wants to avoid foreign military entanglements, and b) he wants the world to continue bowing to America as The Great Power. Bolton appealed to the latter longing, but was dangerously inconducive to the former.

    I disagree. Whilst your two points are true, Trump's foreign policy is mostly governed by his overwhelming desire to get a Nobel Peace award.

    Everything Trump does can be seen as an attempt to get revenge on Obama, who dared to ridicule him publicly. Whilst he can undo all the things that Obama did within the US, he can never take Obama's Nobel Peace prize away. So, in order to satisfy his ego, he NEEDS to match Obama and get a Nobel for himself. Hence his bizarre attempts in North Korea and Iran. He has no international strategy - he simply believes that if he can bluster enough, something will give and he'll get a Nobel nomination.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    I’m these crazy times that may yet work. :cry:
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Heard on the radio that a couple of oil facilities in Saudi Arabia were destroyed via drone. T reportedly contacted the crown prince and offered assistance.

    ...and I'm wondering if T had something to do with it...
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    How did Obama ridicule Trump? I think of Obama as always polite and diplomatic.
  • By existing.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    They’re trying to blame the drone attack in Saudi directly on Iran. It seems to me that if Iran really wanted to attack Saudi directly the damage would be far, far greater.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    How did Obama ridicule Trump? I think of Obama as always polite and diplomatic.

    Possibly at the White House correspondents' dinner (IIRC), when Obama was still in office. Various people did comedy, roasting various people and subjects. Barack had a turn on stage, and made a comment about T. Don't remember what it was, but I winced. T was not a happy camper, and that experience may have helped nudge him towards running for prez. (Though he didn't really *want* to be prez.)

    It's probably online somewhere. The clip surfaced in the media, during the last few years.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Yes, that clip. In the comments below it, someone named Rafajafar said, "It's like witnessing the creation of a Sith Lord".*

    I agree. I do think that, though T really had it coming (and more), Barack unintentionally provoked T into running--and giving us this current mess.

    *Very bad guys in the Star Wars universe.
  • This is also why Trump will never attend another White House correspondents' dinner.
  • That was such an understated and well-aimed skewering. Really, the comment about Trump's TV show was a beautiful bit of surgery. He just went in there, opened him up and removed his credibility.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    This is also why Trump will never attend another White House correspondents' dinner.

    Unless he mostly had the stage to himself.
  • Donald Trump is an incredibly stupid man, and that stupidity is just one of the many ways he is undermining American national security. The latest example was reported this week:

    "President Donald Trump has left the impression with foreign officials, members of his administration, and others involved in Iranian negotiations that he is actively considering a French plan to extend a $15 billion credit line to the Iranians if Tehran comes back into compliance with the Obama-era nuclear deal.

    "Trump has in recent weeks shown openness to entertaining President Emmanuel Macron’s plan, according to four sources with knowledge of Trump’s conversations with the French leader. Two of those sources said that State Department officials, including Secretary Mike Pompeo, are also open to weighing the French proposal, in which the Paris government would effectively ease the economic sanctions regime that the Trump administration has applied on Tehran for more than a year.

    "The deal put forward by France would compensate Iran for oil sales disrupted by American sanctions. A large portion of Iran’s economy relies on cash from oil sales. Most of that money is frozen in bank accounts across the globe. The $15 billion credit line would be guaranteed by Iranian oil. In exchange for the cash, Iran would have to come back into compliance with the nuclear accord it signed with the world’s major powers in 2015. Tehran would also have to agree not to threaten the security of the Persian Gulf or to impede maritime navigation in the area. Lastly, Tehran would have to commit to regional Middle East talks in the future."

    Let's be clear: At the end of May, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported that Iran was still in compliance with the deal. Iran has been in compliance all along. It was Trump who first threatened to break the deal. The European Union urged Congress to preserve it. And then even though Iran was in compliance with the deal, and it was he who was threatening to break it, Trump also threatened to sanction European businesses that do business with Iran. And then Trump did break the deal. This was a crisis entirely of Trump's own making.

    Iran's leaders are not nice, but they are smart. They saw what the Bush-Cheney administration did to Iraq. Saddam Hussein was not Iran’s friend. But he did give up his weapons of mass destruction, and Bush-Cheney took advantage of that. And like all aspirants to nuclear weapons, Iranian leaders understood that they were in a better position to bargain if they had nuclear weapons than if they left themselves open to being invaded and devastated for no reason, the way Iraq was. So Iran ramped up the development of its nuclear weapons program, and then-President Obama and the European Union made a deal with them to end that program. They abided by that deal, and then Trump broke it.

    Republican presidents are dangerous to national and world security, but none more than Trump. By breaking the deal with Iran, Trump gave Iran the incentive to resume its arms program, which they have done. Which makes the world less safe. Because that's what Trump's ineptitude does: make the world less safe.

    Trump's boot-licking Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was outraged that Iran was again ramping up its nuclear weapons program, nevermind why. And with tensions again rising, Trump did what he always does on the world stage: He got his ass kicked. Now he's considering giving Iran $15 billion dollars in credit to get back in compliance with the deal with which it had always been in compliance—until Trump gave them the incentive not to be. That's Trump's "genius" in making deals: getting his ass kicked.

    (Based on G7 reports)
  • This replicates exactly Trump's usual approach to property development. He acquires a property. The property may be in great shape, may have all manner of promising advantages, may have been solidly constructed, enhanced with state-of-the-art improvements, and on and on. No matter. T inspects the property, declares it a disaster, razes it down to its subbasements, and erects a vastly inferior, cheesy, simulacrum in its place.

    He didn't "negotiate" the original agreement with Iran, so it cannot have been any good. He scrapped it. Now he's developing the architecture for a "new, improved" (because his) plan to erect the stupidest possible deal, without the slightest grasp of how his wrecking ball approach to the original deal affects our allies or our adversaries or what poison this new deal will inject into what's left of the Trump World Order (so-called).
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    ...so he's still demolishing other kids' block constructions?
  • Sure. Just wait till he unveils his plan to solve the US homeless problem.
  • Gramps, spot on re Iran. Macron is doing very well internationally, not so much on the domestic front. I understand he is trying to break the power of the union movement.

    I read the Sacramento Bee a fair bit. The homeless situation gets a great deal of press in that city. All sorts of things are being tried, mostly with really good aims. They need Trump's intervention like they need assault weapons given away on street corners.

    I sometimes feel afraid around homeless people, particularly overseas when I am out of my comfort zone. I need to start volunteering again. Giving money is good, but volunteering is the bomb.
  • missed the window looking for Andre the Giant gifs (Unrelated). I meant to say that homelessness is a really hard issue politically because people don't think its fixed or even improving unless homeless people are completely invisible. It will always play well for conservatives.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    My favourite thing about that LA Times article is to discover the existence of an activist group called Raging Grannies.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Trump names a new national security adviser. And, shockers, it is a white man. Again.

    This analysis suggests reasons why that might not be a good thing under the circumstances.
  • I don't know much about him but I'm going to take a wild guess that the man's race is the least of his problems.
  • There's been a slow-motion confrontation brewing between the House Intelligence Committee and Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire. It started with a letter [PDF] from committee chairman Adam Schiff (D-CA28) on September 10. It's not that long but it informs Maguire that he was required to forward a specific whistleblower report from the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG) no later than September 2 and had not done so. Schiff demanded the report.

    It was apparently not forthcoming because Schiff sent another letter [PDF]. It's a little longer but makes the point that Maguire doesn't have the authority to overrule the Inspector General in a matter of Congressional oversight and that the justification that "the complaint concerns conduct by someone outside of the Intelligence Community and because the complaint involves confidential and potentially privileged communications" is spurious. Schiff goes on to draw the conclusion:
    The Committee can only conclude, based on this remarkable confluence of factors, that the serious misconduct at issue involves the President of the United States and/or other senior White House or Administration officials. This raises grave concerns that your office, together with the Department of Justice and possibly the White House, are engaged in an unlawful effort to protect the President and conceal from the Committee information related to his possible "serious or flagrant" misconduct, abuse of power, or violation of law.

    The bolding was in the original letter. Schiff closes by saying he expects to receive the report an all relevant materials by September 17 and, absent that, Maguire was required to appear before a public hearing on September 19 (today). Enclosed with the September 13 letter was a subpœna.

    Maguire stated that he is going to do neither, but is available to the committee next week. ICIG Atkinson will appear before the committee in a closed session today.

    Enter the Washington Post with an article saying that Trump's phone calls with a "foreign leader" are what caused the whistleblower to blow the whistle.
    The whistleblower complaint that has triggered a tense showdown between the U.S. intelligence community and Congress involves President Trump’s communications with a foreign leader, according to two former U.S. officials familiar with the matter.

    Trump’s interaction with the foreign leader included a “promise” that was regarded as so troubling that it prompted an official in the U.S. intelligence community to file a formal whistleblower complaint with the inspector general for the intelligence community, said the former officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

    It was not immediately clear which foreign leader Trump was speaking with or what he pledged to deliver, but his direct involvement in the matter has not been previously disclosed. It raises new questions about the president’s handling of sensitive information and may further strain his relationship with U.S. spy agencies. One former official said the communication was a phone call.

    Naturally these anonymously sourced (caveat lector) details have given rise to all kinds of speculation. Who is the "foreign leader"? What "promise" was made? Was the promised action illegal, or just something that would look really bad if disclosed?
  • You get us the best stuff Croesos.
  • I wrote:
    I sometimes feel afraid around homeless people, particularly overseas when I am out of my comfort zone. I need to start volunteering again. Giving money is good, but volunteering is the bomb.

    This implies I have volunteered in the past around homeless people. That's not true. Mostly, what I do is look for paid employment that puts me in contact with people at the margins. I haven't volunteered for years, and it was church related stuff when I did it. Working with people at the margins, paid or otherwise, is the bomb.

    Sorry, but it was bugging me.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    You get us the best stuff Croesos.

    No problem. As an addendum the Washington Post has put out a timeline of events relevant to this story, including the various foreign leaders Trump is known to have contacted in the weeks leading up to the whistleblowing. The July 31st call to Vladimir Putin seems the most interesting, not just because of past history but because the White House didn't disclose it until after the Russians did and the details provided by each side differ. (In case you don't remember back that far, on July 31 California was suffering severe wildfires, a matter of apparent indifference to Trump, making the whole "Siberian wildfires" explanation sound very strained indeed.)

    Of particular note is the August 8 entry:
    After Trump’s pick of Rep. John Ratcliffe (R-Tex.) to replace [ departing Director of National Intelligence Dan ] Coats falls through, Trump announces Joseph Maguire would take on the role in an acting capacity. In doing so, he bypassed Sue Gordon, who had been Coats’s No. 2 at DNI and was a career intelligence official with bipartisan support. Gordon would also resign.

    So something roils the leadership of the intelligence community and four days later someone blows the whistle on something.

    It should also be noted that Adam Schiff has made this claim.
    According to the director of national intelligence (DNI), the reason he's not acting to provide it, even though the statute mandates that he do so, is because he is being instructed not to. This involved a higher authority, someone above the DNI.

    The list of people in the U.S. government "above the DNI" is very short.
  • Do you realize all the departmental chiefs of homeland security are all acting heads, as is the acting Secretary of Homeland Security?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    If only the president were an acting president...
  • So it looks like Trump was talking to the other Vlad...

    It seems like Ukraine's president isn't playing along though. He does seem to be somewhat decent so far, especially compared to the recent crop of Ukrainian leaders.
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