Break Glass - 2020 USA Elections

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  • Yeah, I'm comfy with Bernie sticking around for a bit.

    On a side issue, what's a good site for working out who owns shares in American companies? I'm trying to mess with the heads of nationalists who read the national review by showing them that foreign govts own pieces of American companies, especially big pharma. I can't find the info in the basic google searches I've done, and I really don't think its worth going through share registers in order to give fascists a minor conundrum to puzzle over. But surely a journo somewhere has done this work!
  • IMHO, Biden did something incredibly stupid, unwise, etc. yesterday (Tues. the 11th).

    "Joe Biden, accused of wanting to end 2nd Amendment, responds: "You're full of sh**" (CBS News).
    (Make sure you read the correction at the very end of the article.)

    B was touring an auto factory in Detroit, doing a meet and greet with the union workers--whose support he probably really needs. A man came up and asked him about gun rights. He also brought up an altered viral video. B lost it--to the point of threatening to call him out. (Go outside for an altercation/fight.)

    I saw the clip last night, possibly on Colbert's show. When I looked for a good article to link to here, there were so many conservative and right wing hits at the beginning that I had to do some digging to find a good article.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »

    Because he's a narcissistic asshole? I agree with what he'd like to see happen in the U.S., but I have the good sense to know that I'm to the very far left of the American electorate and as such not in step with the middle ground where the real work gets done in America politics. Sanders' answer to how he'd get things done like Medicare for all and free college education is a lot of hand-waving and shouting "Revolution!"
    Golden Key wrote: »
    IMHO, Biden did something incredibly stupid, unwise, etc. yesterday (Tues. the 11th).

    "Joe Biden, accused of wanting to end 2nd Amendment, responds: "You're full of sh**" (CBS News).
    (Make sure you read the correction at the very end of the article.)

    B was touring an auto factory in Detroit, doing a meet and greet with the union workers--whose support he probably really needs. A man came up and asked him about gun rights. He also brought up an altered viral video. B lost it--to the point of threatening to call him out. (Go outside for an altercation/fight.)

    This kind of thing could work to his advantage, IMO, given the right spin: Uncle Joe can give some home truths, doesn't pull his punches, calls it the way he sees it, etc etc.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    edited March 2020
    The other factor now is that the Sunday debate can hardly be politics as usual. The NBA season suspension, the news about Tom Hanks and his wife, Trump's confused and confusing 'about face' broadcast, these things and others, will have woken up the complacent to the fact that there is a very serious and developing global crisis in play.

    It's not the time for combative knock about politics.

    The full of shit thing. Wasn't that just Biden being Biden? Who knows? He might at some stage observe correctly that Trump is full of shit. The evidence for that assertion is very impressive. But not now.

    I doubt it will do him much harm. And I also wondered whether the accuser was a plant.
  • Hadn't thought of the accuser being a plant, but he well could be. My concern was that, in the video, B was really furious and out of control. You don't call someone a piece of shit--particularly in those circumstances, particularly if you need their goodwill and vote, particularly if you're trying to win over their particular group.

    And IMHO calling the man a piece of shit wasn't the worst of it. He threatened to call the guy out.

    And then this happened (quote from my link):
    "You're working for me, man!" the worker said.

    "I'm not working for you," Biden said. "Don't be such a horse's ass."

    That bothers me. On basic principle, a president does work for the people--even people they disagree with. They may not do what the people want; but they are in a position of responsibility, and should at least take that seriously, and try to be somewhat respectful.
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Hadn't thought of the accuser being a plant, but he well could be. My concern was that, in the video, B was really furious and out of control. You don't call someone a piece of shit--particularly in those circumstances, particularly if you need their goodwill and vote, particularly if you're trying to win over their particular group.

    And IMHO calling the man a piece of shit wasn't the worst of it. He threatened to call the guy out.

    But Mr Biden DIDN’T call the man a piece of shit. He said he was full of it, which while not complimentary, is quite a different thing.

    Golden Key wrote: »
    And then this happened (quote from my link):
    "You're working for me, man!" the worker said.

    "I'm not working for you," Biden said. "Don't be such a horse's ass."

    That bothers me. On basic principle, a president does work for the people--even people they disagree with. They may not do what the people want; but they are in a position of responsibility, and should at least take that seriously, and try to be somewhat respectful.

    As far as I can tell, Mr Biden is not currently the president and was simply stating a fact. (About his current responsibilities, that is, rather than any equine anatomical resemblances of his interlocutor).

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Cameron wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, Mr Biden is not currently the president and was simply stating a fact. (About his current responsibilities, that is, rather than any equine anatomical resemblances of his interlocutor).
    Oh I think both statements were factual! Anyway, Trump has so lowered the understanding of what constitutes proper presidential behaviour that a bit of straightforward calling out by Biden hardly counts as a big thing. This was just the gun lobby trying to make capital. The NRA will encourage its membership to continue to vote for the present "horse's ass" so long as he supports their self-serving view of the Second Amendment.

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Oh no! Joe Biden used strong language. This is a big fucking deal! Call forth the fainting couches!

    Seriously, standing up to a gun nut is supposed to hurt Biden in the Democratic primary? Given that this is one of the few issues where Biden can credibly claim to be the left of Bernie Sanders, I'm not sure this is going to be such a hindrance to Biden.
  • I agree. I saw that clip, and if I was a yank I would be whoopin and hollerin and waving my hat around. Instead, I sat back in my chair, grinned, and said "Joe Biden, you are a bloody champion. A bobby dazzler. There's no flies on you, old mate." Then I put another shrimp on the barbie and gave me shiela a squeeze.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    For those who have twenty minutes to spare and are interested in such things, here is a video of Joe Biden's COVID-19 speech. The contrast with Trump's oval office address on the same subject last night is marked, both in terms of content and delivery.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Looks like they are moving the debate from Arizona to Washington DC.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Looks like they are moving the debate from Arizona to Washington DC.

    It seemed silly to rent a huge space and only use the stage.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Looks like they are moving the debate from Arizona to Washington DC.

    It seemed silly to rent a huge space and only use the stage.

    I am guessing they rented the space some time ago and no refunds were offered.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Had more to do with the risk of flying everyone to Arizona--especially the two contenders.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Saturday, March 14 is the date of the Democratic caucuses in the Northern Mariana Islands. It is the only primary contest that day (technically it's already March 14 in the Northern Marianas right now). Six delegates are at stake.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    And Bernie Sanders has won the Northern Mariana caucuses. The final vote total was 84 for Sanders, 48 for Biden, and 2 for "uncommitted". No word yet on the distribution of the contest's 6 pledged delegates, but my guess would be 4 Sanders / 2 Biden.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Biden is more popular in the Southern Marianas.... :wink:
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    And Bernie Sanders has won the Northern Mariana caucuses. The final vote total was 84 for Sanders, 48 for Biden, and 2 for "uncommitted". No word yet on the distribution of the contest's 6 pledged delegates, but my guess would be 4 Sanders / 2 Biden.

    I think the uncommitted are to have at least one delegate by Democratic Party rules but I could be wrong. If so, it could be Sanders 3, Biden 1, Uncommitted 1
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »

    Seriously, standing up to a gun nut is supposed to hurt Biden in the Democratic primary?

    Yeah, I don't think there are too many Democrats who are gonna say "Holy cow, I'm so offended by Biden's descent into vulgarity, I'm gonna vote for Mr. Grab 'Em By The P****!"

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Who won the Biden-Sanders debate? There was a lot of sniping going on, which I suppose may have been inevitable. My gut response to what I saw was that Biden came off somewhat better. Sanders calling coronavirus Ebola actually sent shock waves through me. Various fact checker sites I've looked at show that both were guilty of misleading claims.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Caveat that I didn't see the debate, but I'd say "ebola" for "coronavirus" is a forgivable synaptic snafu. Likely one of those mistakes where you know what it is that you're talking about, but the wrong word happens to come out of your mouth. (As opposed to thinking that the world is currently on edge because of the organ-melting diseasr that originated in Africa.)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And then this happened (quote from my link):
    "You're working for me, man!" the worker said.

    "I'm not working for you," Biden said. "Don't be such a horse's ass."

    That bothers me. On basic principle, a president does work for the people--even people they disagree with. They may not do what the people want; but they are in a position of responsibility, and should at least take that seriously, and try to be somewhat respectful.

    Though, and forgive me if this too much of a technicality, but at the moment, is Biden really "working" for "the people"? If I'm not mistaken, he is not currently holding any elected office, but rather trying to attain such.

  • Yes, he's not yet president. But the job is *supposed* to be about working for the people. So IMHO he should be thinking that way *now*.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Yes, he's not yet president. But the job is *supposed* to be about working for the people. So IMHO he should be thinking that way *now*.
    He is interviewing for the job of public servant, so yes. IMO, a huge problem with politicians and government employees is that most of them do not fully embrace this.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Yes, he's not yet president. But the job is *supposed* to be about working for the people. So IMHO he should be thinking that way *now*.
    He is interviewing for the job of public servant, so yes. IMO, a huge problem with politicians and government employees is that most of them do not fully embrace this.

    I'm not sure I buy the "you work for me, therefore you must embrace my specific policy priorities instead of the priorities of the vast majority of the people who voted for you" argument. It sounds a lot like someone arguing with a traffic cop after getting caught driving 90 mph through a school zone. Sure, the officer technically "works for" the person he's ticketing, but that doesn't mean he has to take that person's recommendation that he be let off with a warning.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    edited March 2020
    "I may work for you in the future but don't think you or the NRA own me".

    Looks perfectly reasonable to me. The NRA exercising political control through lobbying may be a fact of life but it is responsible for much suffering.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Tomorrow is another primary election day. Four states (Florida, Illinois, Ohio, and Arizona) cast their ballots in the Democratic presidential race, allocating a total of 577 pledged delegates. As the race stands Joe Biden needs to win ~50.5% of the remaining, unallocated pledged delegates to get an outright majority while Bernie Sanders would need to get 57.5%. Biden is favored to win in all of these states by a fairly impressive margin, according to most polling.

    Tomorrow also represents the first point at which more than half of the Democratic pledged delegates will have been allocated. Anyone who doesn't have at least 459 pledged delegates when the dust settles after tomorrow's Democratic elections will have been mathematically eliminated from achieving an outright majority in delegates. At the moment both Biden and Sanders exceed this total.

    Three of those four states are also having Republican contests on the same day. (Arizona is not scheduled to hold theirs until April.) Trump is, naturally, expected to win all three and I only mention it because if he sweeps all the delegates from all three states (as seems likely) he will have amassed a majority of delegates to the Republican convention and be assured his party's nomination.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Yes, he's not yet president. But the job is *supposed* to be about working for the people. So IMHO he should be thinking that way *now*.
    He is interviewing for the job of public servant, so yes. IMO, a huge problem with politicians and government employees is that most of them do not fully embrace this.

    I'm not sure I buy the "you work for me, therefore you must embrace my specific policy priorities instead of the priorities of the vast majority of the people who voted for you" argument.
    Good thing then, that this is not my POV.
    Public servants should work to the what is best for the people. That might entail going against what is popular. It certainly will disappoint at least some of one's constituents. But awareness of working for what is best for the people is not universal, despite being servants to the people.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Apparently Ohio will not be having a primary for either party tomorrow.
    Ohio will join three other states in holding its Democratic presidential primary as scheduled on Tuesday after a court denied a request to move the state's contest over novel coronavirus concerns.

    Republican Gov. Mike DeWine had asked the court to move the primary election to June amid the pandemic. The court's denial comes as the spread of the virus has caused a major disruption to American life as government officials work to stem the pandemic. Illinois, Florida and Arizona will also hold their elections Tuesday as planned.

    Another reason to switch to vote by mail.
    While Suncrest feels like one community — it has one Mormon church and one restaurant — it’s divided into two counties: Salt Lake and Utah. In fact, the county line runs right down the middle of it. Both sides are similar in population size; each is 90 percent white. In the 2016 election, however, they had dramatically different voter turnout rates. Suncrest’s Salt Lake County residents showed up to vote at a rate nearly 18 percentage points higher than their Utah County counterparts, with about 81 percent of Salt Lake’s registered voters casting ballots compared to Utah’s 63 percent.

    What made the difference? The two counties used different voting systems. Whereas Utah County stuck with the traditional model of people lining up at polling places to cast ballots, Salt Lake County switched to conducting its election entirely by mail. Under that system, otherwise known as “vote at home,” voters receive their ballots in the mail weeks before Election Day and can either mail them back or drop them off at a secure site. In other words, Suncrest, a demographically homogenous community, offered something no other part of the country has: a natural experiment to compare traditional voting to voting at home.

    Usually, an electoral reform is deemed successful if it increases voter participation a few percentage points. The jump in Salt Lake County’s turnout was on a whole other level. And the disparity wasn’t limited to Suncrest. In that same election, 21 of Utah’s 29 counties had switched to vote at home. Those counties had an average turnout rate of nearly 9 percentage points higher than those that voted the old-fashioned way—and 5 percent higher than was predicted by a generally accurate turnout forecast, according to a study by Pantheon Analytics that was commissioned by the Washington Monthly.

    So in addition to cushioning states from temporary shocks, like coastal flooding or snowstorms or a massive pandemic on election day, it actually increases voter participation. Any jurisdiction that still has time to transition to such a system and doesn't is guilty of electoral malpractice.
  • ...and all that, together with other stuff, has me wondering about both party conventions this summer, picking the nominees, and whether we'll have the general election on time this fall...or at all.
    :(votive):
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    I am very seriously worried about Trump postponing or even cancelling the election.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    I am very seriously worried about Trump postponing or even cancelling the election.

    I'm pretty sure that power is in the hands of Congress, not the president. Art. I, §4, cl. 1 states:
    The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

    So that's Congressional elections. Presidential elections are handled by Art. II, §1, cl. 4:
    The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

    Now I trust Mitch McConnell to adhere to the norms of democracy about as far as I can throw Merrick Garland, but McConnell would need the cooperation of the Democratically controlled House of Representatives to do anything.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    The president technically works for the majority of the people in the United States. If the majority wants some sort of gun regulation, it is up to him to work with Congress to find a solution. If the individual does not like what is decided, he has recourse in the federal courts.
  • In a representative democracy, the majority will is not the be all and end all.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The president technically works for the majority of the people in the United States.

    I'm sure President Hillary Clinton will be glad to hear that.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    In a representative democracy, the majority will is not the be all and end all.

    I think you mean a liberal democracy, i.e. a democracy that has safeguards for the liberties of its citizens, hence the term. Not all democracies, nor even all representative democracies, are liberal democracies.
  • Fine. American is just such a democracy and the point is still applicable to it.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Let me correct my statement: in the United States, the president works for the majority of the electoral votes he or she gets.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Let me correct my statement: in the United States, the president works for the majority of the electoral votes he or she gets.

    Here is a complete list of the 538 people who voted in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Donald Trump apparently works for exactly 304 of the people on that list. (He won states equivalent to 306 electoral votes but two "faithless electors" from Texas voted for someone else. One of them did cast his vice presidential vote for Mike Pence, so Pence apparently works for 305 people.)
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Here are the current pledged delegate standings (most of these are projections, not certified results) before today's election, which will assign another 577 441 pledged delegates.

    1. Joe Biden - 905
    2. Bernie Sanders - 751
    X. Dropout Candidates - 171
    ?. ??? - 41
    3. Tulsi Gabbard - 2

    Yes, there are still 41 pledged delegates unassigned from previous elections, mostly from Colorado and the still-being-tabulated Democrats Abroad. Any candidate who doesn't finish the day with at least 323 pledged delegates will be mathematically eliminated from winning the Democratic Presidential Nomination on the first ballot, so unless Tulsi Gabbard does exceptionally (and unexpectedly) well today . . .
  • Arizona's primary is today. I mailed in my tear-stained ballot the day after Super Tuesday. No, I did not vote for Tulsi Gabbard. (Is she self-isolating? Hasn't she looked at the delegate standings? Why the heck hasn't she dropped out?)
  • You know, it would be purely lovely if various folks outwith the U.S. would stop telling us all that we're not going to have elections and that Trump will be dictator for ever. I understand it used to be a crime to spread despondency during a war. It certainly does take away from our (Americans') ability to fight the bullshit when we're being urged to despair by our friends.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    You know, it would be purely lovely if various folks outwith the U.S. would stop telling us all that we're not going to have elections and that Trump will be dictator for ever.

    You do realize that @NicoleMR is an American, right? Or is this one of those 'people from New York aren't real Americans' kind of things? Or does speculating about Trump's possible future actions regarding elections automatically revoke your citizenship?
  • That was NOT aimed at a single person, American or no. It is the frustrated reaction to a sentiment I have seen expressed all over the Ship for the past several months, mainly by non-Americans. gimme a break.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    That was NOT aimed at a single person, American or no. It is the frustrated reaction to a sentiment I have seen expressed all over the Ship for the past several months, mainly by non-Americans. gimme a break.

    The Republican Party has developed an outright contempt for democracy over the past few decades. Voter ID laws. Voter roll purges. Racially selective gerrymandering. Opposition to felon re-enfranchisement. Selective shuttering of polling places. Opposition to the "Motor Voter" Law. If something helps Americans to vote Republicans will oppose it and if something impedes Americans from voting Republicans will support it. At a time when six states have already rescheduled their primary elections it's not insane or defeatist to wonder how a party that shown not just a willingness but an outright glee in gaming the mechanisms of the electoral process to gain an unearned political advantage might use the current crisis.

    I'm pretty sure the November general elections will proceed as scheduled (though I also hope that a lot of states adopt a vote by mail system), but that's mostly because of the Constitutional difficulties involved in doing anything else, not because there's no desire to do so within Trump's party.
  • As I mentioned somewhere up above, Arizona's primary election is today. Despite COVID-19, the number of ballots cast is supposedly way up from four years ago (thanks to early and mail-in votes). We really do have a chance of turning Arizona blue!
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    We don't do a nationality test when judging whether a pond war is starting, simply whether there is unfair lumping together of all Americans. Vigorous criticisms of political policies and actions are acceptable from anyone. See the recent Styx thread for discussions and clarifications.

    Barnabas62
    Purgatory Host


  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The Republican Party has developed an outright contempt for democracy over the past few decades. Voter ID laws. Voter roll purges. Racially selective gerrymandering. Opposition to felon re-enfranchisement. Selective shuttering of polling places. Opposition to the "Motor Voter" Law. If something helps Americans to vote Republicans will oppose it and if something impedes Americans from voting Republicans will support it. At a time when six states have already rescheduled their primary elections it's not insane or defeatist to wonder how a party that shown not just a willingness but an outright glee in gaming the mechanisms of the electoral process to gain an unearned political advantage might use the current crisis.

    I'm pretty sure the November general elections will proceed as scheduled (though I also hope that a lot of states adopt a vote by mail system), but that's mostly because of the Constitutional difficulties involved in doing anything else, not because there's no desire to do so within Trump's party.

    The Republican party will do whatever they can and whatever it takes to stay in power. They will not be guided by norms or decency, and they will bend the rule of law. Right now I don't think we're looking at a Trump dictatorship, but we certainly should be on guard against the 2020 election being stolen. If it is stolen, we'll be further down the road to autocracy.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Hey, speaking of using the current COVID-19 outbreak as an excuse to subvert the normal political process (as well as not being guided by norms or decency), here's Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell calling on his likely Democratic opponent to stop political advertising.
    U.S. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s campaign called on a potential Democratic opponent — former Marine Corps pilot Amy McGrath — to stop running political advertisements during the COVID-19 pandemic.

    “Amy McGrath’s decision to blanket the airwaves with deceitful ads during the coronavirus outbreak is tasteless and shameful,” said McConnell campaign manager Kevin Golden. “As Kentuckians adjust their daily lives and schedules to help stem the outbreak, the last thing they need to see on TV is negative political advertising. The McGrath campaign must stop airing all of their advertisements.

    McGrath has been running advertisements in Kentucky since July, when she first announced her campaign for U.S. Senate. Recently, she has been running national ads on MSNBC and Fox News in an effort to boost her already prolific fundraising totals.

    McGrath's campaign had the perfect response to being told to shut its piehole.
    “Amy is well aware of the stress the coronavirus pandemic is causing Kentuckians and our nation. The only person who doesn’t seem to understand that is Sen. McConnell,” said Terry Sebastian, a spokesman for McGrath. “He has a 35-year failed track record on issues like health care and jobs in Kentucky, and now — during a public health crisis — he took a long weekend instead of doing his job and working to pass a relief package immediately.”

    So no, I don't think the Republicans are trustworthy when it comes to safeguarding American democracy and elections. FFS, does no one remember 2016?
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Thank you, @Crœsos , and @Barnabas62 .
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The Republican Party has developed an outright contempt for democracy over the past few decades. Voter ID laws. Voter roll purges. Racially selective gerrymandering. Opposition to felon re-enfranchisement. Selective shuttering of polling places. Opposition to the "Motor Voter" Law. If something helps Americans to vote Republicans will oppose it and if something impedes Americans from voting Republicans will support it. At a time when six states have already rescheduled their primary elections it's not insane or defeatist to wonder how a party that shown not just a willingness but an outright glee in gaming the mechanisms of the electoral process to gain an unearned political advantage might use the current crisis.

    I'm pretty sure the November general elections will proceed as scheduled (though I also hope that a lot of states adopt a vote by mail system), but that's mostly because of the Constitutional difficulties involved in doing anything else, not because there's no desire to do so within Trump's party.

    The oligarchs in charge of the Republican party will do whatever they can and whatever it takes to stay in power. They will not be guided by norms or decency, and they will bend the rule of law. Right now I don't think we're looking at a Trump dictatorship, but we certainly should be on guard against the 2020 election being stolen. If it is stolen, we'll be further down the road to autocracy.
This discussion has been closed.