there has to be a role for scrutiny and the presentation of contrary information if only because public pressure is one means of getting some kind of course correction.
Remind me how that's going down under the Trump administration.
Yes, I'm sure agreeing with Trump would be a better way of getting him to change his mind, but sarcasm aside the two situations are not entirely analogous -- the current UK government is still somewhat responsive to public pressure.
That's a fair point. I'm sceptical about the abilities of a Panorama documentary to change the course of things though. With Trump, his "disinfectant" comments look like they might - might, because we've been here many times before - contribute to his own undoing. I wonder whether waiting for such a moment is not better. How best to counter a populist narrative using the normal weapons of democracy is a thread topic in its own right, I think.
What greater purpose of government is there other than to protect its citizens? What is the point of a free media if they don't publicize this kind of outrageous cover-up? How the hell will the ballot box fix it if the government's lies are unchallenged? How many deaths in the meantime? (Democracy is not just about voting!)
I agree 110%, the line about democracy being not just about voting is a constant refrain of mine.
It's probably true that now isn't the time for a formal enquiry into what has or hasn't happened over the last three months - if for no other reason that most of those who would be in a position to give evidence are senior medical personal, hospital managers etc who are in the front line and would consider treating patients or scrabbling around for another box of face masks to be more important. But, there will be an inquiry when things ease of a bit, whether that's a formal independent inquiry or through the media. I'd much prefer a proper, formal, independent inquiry, and see no reason why the government can't simply say that that will start at the beginning of November (6 months from now). Let the government act in the knowledge that they'll need to face an inquiry in the near future.
In the meantime it's the responsibility of everyone else to press the government to act in the best possible way, and that includes highlighting recent mistakes so that they can be corrected and not repeated. The press need to take a lead in this, but our MPs and other elected representatives have a role to play as well (so, write to them), and the public in general putting pressure on the government - we're pretty much limited to letters to MPs and ministers, petitions, letters to news papers, comments on social media ... we're not going to organise a million person march just now.
The next chance to hold the government to task at the ballot box will be too late, four years is a very long time and I'm sure that government ministers are thinking they have plenty of time to get the public to forget this debacle before then.
there has to be a role for scrutiny and the presentation of contrary information if only because public pressure is one means of getting some kind of course correction.
Remind me how that's going down under the Trump administration.
Yes, I'm sure agreeing with Trump would be a better way of getting him to change his mind, but sarcasm aside the two situations are not entirely analogous -- the current UK government is still somewhat responsive to public pressure.
That's a fair point. I'm sceptical about the abilities of a Panorama documentary to change the course of things though.
It has to be considered in the context of a media ecosystem. As Today have shifted to following the lead of the papers, Panorama has become one of the few places the BBC actually breaks stories. The PPE overcounting has been picked up by the Mail.
there has to be a role for scrutiny and the presentation of contrary information if only because public pressure is one means of getting some kind of course correction.
Remind me how that's going down under the Trump administration.
Yes, I'm sure agreeing with Trump would be a better way of getting him to change his mind, but sarcasm aside the two situations are not entirely analogous -- the current UK government is still somewhat responsive to public pressure.
That's a fair point. I'm sceptical about the abilities of a Panorama documentary to change the course of things though.
It has to be considered in the context of a media ecosystem. As Today have shifted to following the lead of the papers, Panorama has become one of the few places the BBC actually breaks stories. The PPE overcounting has been picked up by the Mail.
Newsnight also tends to do a lot better than the main news programming.
If you're in danger of dying on the front line, sod critical distance, get me some protection.
Social media posts will not produce it, nor will post-mortems on why not enough has been found so far.
Fuck that shit.
The only reason PPE, and the lack of it, is at the top of the news agenda is because those most affected by it have bypassed their usual lines of authority and have spoken out publicly. Other people have picked up on it until it became a clamour. The government had nowhere left to turn - certainly not to their usual weaponry of lies, threats and obfuscation - except to actually do something about it.
So no, you're wrong. It does produce it. And the post-mortems make the government's inadequate response so far stick in people's minds. Enough that they remember it at the ballot box? Who knows, but it's worth a shot.
I'm trying to express my anger. The list of key decisions that the government got wrong seems to be ever-growing.
There are two things that makes these missteps unforgivable:
1) That the decisions were clearly not made in good faith
2) The incredible dishonesty about the whole thing.
Oh and a third one; that because of 1) and 2) there is a high chance of repeating mistakes.
I have a lot of complex emotions right now. I am looking for the right metaphor - I am somewhat in the frontline but a long way from the heaviest fire. I have many friends and colleagues at much greater risk than me. I have one former colleague (who I didn't know well) who has died. (I have lots of friends who knew him better).
So, whilst I am consciously putting myself at risk by going to work, I know that many are at far higher risk than me.
But here's the thing; whilst it is scary, I don't know anyone in healthcare who is shirking the responsibility to help. In fact, I know one anaethetist who is feeling guilty about being on maternity leave and not being useful... we are putting our selves on the line. Not really me but many I know. The problem is, the great fear is not me but my family.
I worry about giving this virus to my asthmatic wife and two small children.
As it happens, I think I did. We all had very mild symptoms.
So, how do I feel about a government that due to incompetence and ideology has callously put me, my family and my friends and comrades and their families at risk?
How do I feel about a smiling moron who brazenly lies and casts himself as the national hero in our hour of need when in reality he has made - and is still making - things a helluva lot worse than they could have been.
I have been walking in the mountains as part of a party, under a leader of dubious quality. Okay enough when the weather was fine, but when the weather turned and the party in danger of getting lost, we unceremonially deposed the leader and found someone who could actually read a map and a compass to get us back down again.
I agree we have to press the government to improve. Mistakes need to be put right as soon as possible. The alternative is unthinkable. I can’t add much to what has been said but with the possibility of second spike getting more and more probable decisions need to be made now.
... [I see] no reason why the government can't simply say that [a public inquiry] will start at the beginning of November ...
Considering this government's ability to dodge the issue and promise things it has absolutely no intention of delivering (cf the Russia report), I really shouldn't hold your breath.
Public enquiries take years. It needs to happen, but not yet - it would take up time and resources.
Right now the government needs to learn from its huge mistakes and put all its resources to working flat out to be ready for a possible spike in the winter.
We are living in the ‘new normal’ and talk of re-starting the economy is premature.
We need everything ready - PPE, testing and tracing, with mandatory quarantine - before we even contemplate any kind of economic activity. Businesses need to adapt and adapt quickly. The sensible ones already have.
Waiting for a return to yesteryear, or even yesterday, is futile and the sooner leaders realise it the better.
Meanwhile, it looks as if the PM may be going to duck out of PMQs today. (But he's going to have a private phone conversation with Starmer. Interesting.)
We're not quite at Weekend at Bernie's territory, but I wish No 10 could stop lying about the Dear Leader's health.
I’m sure they are lying, but in which direction?
Is he less or more well than they are saying? This could be an excuse for his poor attendance for months to come if he’s better than they are saying. 🤨
My cynical thought when hearing the news of the birth was: is that going to be ABdPJ"s excuse for this week only, or is he going to take 6 weeks paternity leave?
Didn't the original press release give a due date of June? If so, if they are dealing with a premature baby at this time, it's not going to be easy.
My cynical thought when hearing the news of the birth was: is that going to be ABdPJ"s excuse for this week only, or is he going to take 6 weeks paternity leave?
Hadn't he already pre-announced (back when the pregnancy was announced -- which must have been relatively late) that he'd be taking the full complement of leave?
Did the object-subject clauses not come out clearly?
It's the verb that's the problem; 'sired' always takes a male subject, and according to your word order Carrie whatsername is the subject.
Every day is a learning day. I'll store that one away. (I, despite my chosen profession, am terrible at English grammar. Fortunately, I have People who check it for me.)
I just feel my usual confusion about these things. Whenever he's caught out schtuping some blonde bit that's not his wife, or fathering some kid he's trying his best to deny is even his, Johnson's idolators are quick to whine that his private life is his own business and his morality has nothing to do with his public life. Now that his latest sexual liaison has produced fruit these same people want us to go all google eyed.
"Adulterer has kid with woman not his wife" admittedly doesn't cover the full complexity of his current relationship. But if I'm not allowed to raise a questioning and bemused eyebrow over Johnson's prolific sexual career, why should I be required to take any notice about the latest addition to his stable? Of course, he's just become a dad. Again. It's what he does. On a somewhat frequent basis, with an ever growing number of women. Big. Deal.
I just feel my usual confusion about these things. Whenever he's caught out schtuping some blonde bit that's not his wife, or fathering some kid he's trying his best to deny is even his, Johnson's idolators are quick to whine that his private life is his own business and his morality has nothing to do with his public life. Now that his latest sexual liaison has produced fruit these same people want us to go all google eyed.
"Adulterer has kid with woman not his wife" admittedly doesn't cover the full complexity of his current relationship. But if I'm not allowed to raise a questioning and bemused eyebrow over Johnson's prolific sexual career, why should I be required to take any notice about the latest addition to his stable? Of course, he's just become a dad. Again. It's what he does. On a somewhat frequent basis, with an ever growing number of women. Big. Deal.
Well put.
I would add that the same acolytes / disciples are also very keen to use said event to deflect scrutiny from the clusterfuck that is his government. I mean How dare you question him about how he's possibly partly responsible for thousands of avoidable deaths, he's just had a baby!
No ill will to the child. None of us get to choose our parents. However, I do not care about Johnson's private life at all beyond the undeniable fact that he seems to have the same level of honesty, integrity and loyalty in both...
Even more cynical me wonders if the much vaunted return to work was made in the full knowledge of an imminent birth for whatever reason, because then it's not his fault he's not around again ... I'm not the only one to query the timing - Martin Kettle in this Guardian opinion piece (link) suggests that:
Let’s acknowledge, if nothing else, that today’s announcement was a brilliantly executed piece of political tradecraft. The operation in Downing Street is still a lot smarter than many would like to think when they see it preside over those wooden and evasive daily briefings. That’s because, over the 24 hours preceding the announcement that Carrie Symonds and Johnson had had a baby son, No 10 played the media brilliantly.
On Tuesday, Downing Street was studiously evasive about whether Johnson, who had only returned from his Covid-19 recuperation the previous day, would be taking his first prime minister’s questions in the virtual Commons reassembled last week. The evasiveness triggered speculation that Johnson’s health might in fact not be up to the task. No 10’s silence this morning fed the speculation still further. How many journalists began to question Johnson’s and the government’s continuing fragility? Then came the news of the birth. Chapeau!
I just feel my usual confusion about these things. Whenever he's caught out schtuping some blonde bit that's not his wife, or fathering some kid he's trying his best to deny is even his, Johnson's idolators are quick to whine that his private life is his own business and his morality has nothing to do with his public life. Now that his latest sexual liaison has produced fruit these same people want us to go all google eyed.
"Adulterer has kid with woman not his wife" admittedly doesn't cover the full complexity of his current relationship. But if I'm not allowed to raise a questioning and bemused eyebrow over Johnson's prolific sexual career, why should I be required to take any notice about the latest addition to his stable? Of course, he's just become a dad. Again. It's what he does. On a somewhat frequent basis, with an ever growing number of women. Big. Deal.
I know one isn't supposed to say this about someone whose recently been so seriously ill, but this man still disgusts me. If there were any indication that his brush with death had had any chastening effect on his personality, it might be different, but so far the flat refusal to consider putting Brexit negotiations on hold until the pandemic has been sorted out is the only sign to go on. Even if you're pro-Brexit, that is so high-handedly arrogant and stupid that it very strongly implies that it's Johnson as usual. It looks as though his experience has had no effect on him at all.
Time was, when it would have been regarded as outrageous, scandalous and shameful that a Prime Minister should live in open adultery in No 10, yet alone get his mistress up the duff. As this is a hell board, presumably I don't have to be squeamish about saying that. To be google-eyed about this spawn - which I'm sure the media is about to be - doesn't excuse the fact that the two of them have betrayed his proper wife and shamed his official family.
Moderns may accuse past ages of hypocrisy but at least hypocrisy is the tribute paid by the dishonourable to how they know things should be, how they ought to behave.
Whatever the appeal this horrible man has to others, it passes me by. Why is it that he gets a free pass to do things that vastly exceed misconduct that destroys the careers of others? I don't get it. He isn't even any good as an orator.
I read or heard somewhere - heck it could've been here for all I can remember - about populists preferring leaders for their authenticity.
They correctly perceive BoJo and Trump as guys who are empowered to do and say whatever they want, whenever they want to. As Zizek would say: oneself, without the castrated dimension of oneself.
When Trump vomits obvious lies, it doesn't put them off because Trump is not even pretending not to lie, for one thing; nor expecting anyone to believe in the factual truth of what he says. The fact that he can say these things and nobody can hold him to any standard is something they perceive as a nudge-nudge, wink-wink with those in the know.
So: BoJo can break the rules and shake hands with patients, BoJo can hide in a fridge, BoJo can dump his terminally-ill wife, get his GF up the duff with his nth child, and move that GF into Downing Street, simply because he wants to.
Everyone admires a guy who doesn't care what people think, and isn't that just exactly Boris? No. But it is true he doesn't care about hurting anyone's feelings by calling them letterboxes or bumboys. Cause he's a real man who says what he thinks, and any resemblance to the Honey Monster is purely coincidental.
Quintus, Sextus or Septimus? I gather there is some doubt.
Those sound as if they ought to be little RessMogglets.
The youngest Rees-Mogg is called Sixtus, if that helps.
I assume because his father eventually wants to be able to name a chapel after him... mind you getting the ceiling painted might be expensive at current rates.
... Everyone admires a guy who doesn't care what people think, and isn't that just exactly Boris? ...
No they don't. I don't.
@BroJames I think you've hit the target. As far as one can tell, he seems to have either never had or has completely disconnected, his inner moral compass. A person with no sense of either right and wrong or shame is a deeply disturbing sight.
It also makes a person less human, rather than more so. And can any sense of either honour or guilt exist without shame?
It's like the answer one fears to the question 'Is there any inner Trump?'
A person with no sense of either right and wrong or shame is a deeply disturbing sight.
Even more disturbing that they can reach places of such power.
In fact, it looks like - throughout history - it has been those with zero care or morals who have been able to reach the highest positions in their lands. Whatever the political landscape.
Unless anyone on here knows Mr Johnson personally, I don't think we should take it as read that he has no sense of right or wrong, moral compass, etc; the only thing we might say is that it would appear that his sense of right and wrong, moral compass, differs from that publicly espoused by the majority of people.
Comments
That's a fair point. I'm sceptical about the abilities of a Panorama documentary to change the course of things though. With Trump, his "disinfectant" comments look like they might - might, because we've been here many times before - contribute to his own undoing. I wonder whether waiting for such a moment is not better. How best to counter a populist narrative using the normal weapons of democracy is a thread topic in its own right, I think.
Two, in fact.
Purgatory thread
Hell thread
I was talking about Richard Bilton on Panorama. Bilton is well known for being an investigative journalist, and he is exposing the lies.
It's probably true that now isn't the time for a formal enquiry into what has or hasn't happened over the last three months - if for no other reason that most of those who would be in a position to give evidence are senior medical personal, hospital managers etc who are in the front line and would consider treating patients or scrabbling around for another box of face masks to be more important. But, there will be an inquiry when things ease of a bit, whether that's a formal independent inquiry or through the media. I'd much prefer a proper, formal, independent inquiry, and see no reason why the government can't simply say that that will start at the beginning of November (6 months from now). Let the government act in the knowledge that they'll need to face an inquiry in the near future.
In the meantime it's the responsibility of everyone else to press the government to act in the best possible way, and that includes highlighting recent mistakes so that they can be corrected and not repeated. The press need to take a lead in this, but our MPs and other elected representatives have a role to play as well (so, write to them), and the public in general putting pressure on the government - we're pretty much limited to letters to MPs and ministers, petitions, letters to news papers, comments on social media ... we're not going to organise a million person march just now.
The next chance to hold the government to task at the ballot box will be too late, four years is a very long time and I'm sure that government ministers are thinking they have plenty of time to get the public to forget this debacle before then.
It has to be considered in the context of a media ecosystem. As Today have shifted to following the lead of the papers, Panorama has become one of the few places the BBC actually breaks stories. The PPE overcounting has been picked up by the Mail.
Fuck that shit.
The only reason PPE, and the lack of it, is at the top of the news agenda is because those most affected by it have bypassed their usual lines of authority and have spoken out publicly. Other people have picked up on it until it became a clamour. The government had nowhere left to turn - certainly not to their usual weaponry of lies, threats and obfuscation - except to actually do something about it.
So no, you're wrong. It does produce it. And the post-mortems make the government's inadequate response so far stick in people's minds. Enough that they remember it at the ballot box? Who knows, but it's worth a shot.
I'm trying to express my anger. The list of key decisions that the government got wrong seems to be ever-growing.
There are two things that makes these missteps unforgivable:
1) That the decisions were clearly not made in good faith
2) The incredible dishonesty about the whole thing.
Oh and a third one; that because of 1) and 2) there is a high chance of repeating mistakes.
I have a lot of complex emotions right now. I am looking for the right metaphor - I am somewhat in the frontline but a long way from the heaviest fire. I have many friends and colleagues at much greater risk than me. I have one former colleague (who I didn't know well) who has died. (I have lots of friends who knew him better).
So, whilst I am consciously putting myself at risk by going to work, I know that many are at far higher risk than me.
But here's the thing; whilst it is scary, I don't know anyone in healthcare who is shirking the responsibility to help. In fact, I know one anaethetist who is feeling guilty about being on maternity leave and not being useful... we are putting our selves on the line. Not really me but many I know. The problem is, the great fear is not me but my family.
I worry about giving this virus to my asthmatic wife and two small children.
As it happens, I think I did. We all had very mild symptoms.
So, how do I feel about a government that due to incompetence and ideology has callously put me, my family and my friends and comrades and their families at risk?
How do I feel about a smiling moron who brazenly lies and casts himself as the national hero in our hour of need when in reality he has made - and is still making - things a helluva lot worse than they could have been.
There are simply no words.
AFZ
No second chances, because duh.
Right now the government needs to learn from its huge mistakes and put all its resources to working flat out to be ready for a possible spike in the winter.
We are living in the ‘new normal’ and talk of re-starting the economy is premature.
We need everything ready - PPE, testing and tracing, with mandatory quarantine - before we even contemplate any kind of economic activity. Businesses need to adapt and adapt quickly. The sensible ones already have.
Waiting for a return to yesteryear, or even yesterday, is futile and the sooner leaders realise it the better.
O for the chaos of a Gordon Brown government...
I think that explains why he's unlikely to be at the despatch box.
I’m sure they are lying, but in which direction?
Is he less or more well than they are saying? This could be an excuse for his poor attendance for months to come if he’s better than they are saying. 🤨
No 10 could have said something earlier, but no.
Didn't the original press release give a due date of June? If so, if they are dealing with a premature baby at this time, it's not going to be easy.
Hadn't he already pre-announced (back when the pregnancy was announced -- which must have been relatively late) that he'd be taking the full complement of leave?
Am I the only person not to feel "unalloyed joy" at the news?
It's the verb that's the problem; 'sired' always takes a male subject, and according to your word order Carrie whatsername is the subject.
Probably not...
Could this be a good time for Our Glorious Leader to Ascend resign?
Every day is a learning day. I'll store that one away. (I, despite my chosen profession, am terrible at English grammar. Fortunately, I have People who check it for me.)
Whatever they call it, it will probably always be to me 'Pestilence Johnson'.
I know Mr Johnson likes to think of himself as president of the UK, but the reality is he hasn't risen to the status of head of state.
Severalus?
I just feel my usual confusion about these things. Whenever he's caught out schtuping some blonde bit that's not his wife, or fathering some kid he's trying his best to deny is even his, Johnson's idolators are quick to whine that his private life is his own business and his morality has nothing to do with his public life. Now that his latest sexual liaison has produced fruit these same people want us to go all google eyed.
"Adulterer has kid with woman not his wife" admittedly doesn't cover the full complexity of his current relationship. But if I'm not allowed to raise a questioning and bemused eyebrow over Johnson's prolific sexual career, why should I be required to take any notice about the latest addition to his stable? Of course, he's just become a dad. Again. It's what he does. On a somewhat frequent basis, with an ever growing number of women. Big. Deal.
Well put.
I would add that the same acolytes / disciples are also very keen to use said event to deflect scrutiny from the clusterfuck that is his government. I mean How dare you question him about how he's possibly partly responsible for thousands of avoidable deaths, he's just had a baby!
No ill will to the child. None of us get to choose our parents. However, I do not care about Johnson's private life at all beyond the undeniable fact that he seems to have the same level of honesty, integrity and loyalty in both...
AFZ
Time was, when it would have been regarded as outrageous, scandalous and shameful that a Prime Minister should live in open adultery in No 10, yet alone get his mistress up the duff. As this is a hell board, presumably I don't have to be squeamish about saying that. To be google-eyed about this spawn - which I'm sure the media is about to be - doesn't excuse the fact that the two of them have betrayed his proper wife and shamed his official family.
Moderns may accuse past ages of hypocrisy but at least hypocrisy is the tribute paid by the dishonourable to how they know things should be, how they ought to behave.
Whatever the appeal this horrible man has to others, it passes me by. Why is it that he gets a free pass to do things that vastly exceed misconduct that destroys the careers of others? I don't get it. He isn't even any good as an orator.
Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld
Where there’s no attempt at pretence, it suggests that there’s no belief that something is, or is perceived to be, wrong.
They correctly perceive BoJo and Trump as guys who are empowered to do and say whatever they want, whenever they want to. As Zizek would say: oneself, without the castrated dimension of oneself.
When Trump vomits obvious lies, it doesn't put them off because Trump is not even pretending not to lie, for one thing; nor expecting anyone to believe in the factual truth of what he says. The fact that he can say these things and nobody can hold him to any standard is something they perceive as a nudge-nudge, wink-wink with those in the know.
So: BoJo can break the rules and shake hands with patients, BoJo can hide in a fridge, BoJo can dump his terminally-ill wife, get his GF up the duff with his nth child, and move that GF into Downing Street, simply because he wants to.
Everyone admires a guy who doesn't care what people think, and isn't that just exactly Boris? No. But it is true he doesn't care about hurting anyone's feelings by calling them letterboxes or bumboys. Cause he's a real man who says what he thinks, and any resemblance to the Honey Monster is purely coincidental.
The youngest Rees-Mogg is called Sixtus, if that helps.
I assume because his father eventually wants to be able to name a chapel after him... mind you getting the ceiling painted might be expensive at current rates.
@BroJames I think you've hit the target. As far as one can tell, he seems to have either never had or has completely disconnected, his inner moral compass. A person with no sense of either right and wrong or shame is a deeply disturbing sight.
It also makes a person less human, rather than more so. And can any sense of either honour or guilt exist without shame?
It's like the answer one fears to the question 'Is there any inner Trump?'
Even more disturbing that they can reach places of such power.
In fact, it looks like - throughout history - it has been those with zero care or morals who have been able to reach the highest positions in their lands. Whatever the political landscape.