Trumpton - the rant thread

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  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    What was especially repugnant (IMO) was how he used the Bible simply as a theatrical prop, not opening it or talking about how a passage had inspired him, just holding it up as a symbol of authority. It could have been a copy of his memoir or a police baton or a gun.
  • yep.
  • Just to be clear:
    If your police force use teargas and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters then you are not living in a free country or a democracy.

    If the President who instigated this is literally waving a bible then that is blasphemy.
  • From what I saw - and this, to be fair, may have been the result of editing - all he did was stand in front of St John's, hold the Bible, have his photo taken, and walk back to his not-quite-home. Open it, or refer to an inspirational passage? I doubt very much that he'd know where to begin, or whether such a thing he might even find there by chance. A simple reference to the Gospel of Peace. Given that we're in Pentecost, that we speak one message in many tongues. Etc. Healing is a concept beyond a man so damaged.
  • MaryLouise--

    I doubt he's ever read much/any of it. That, specifically, isn't meant as a judgment. He's at lease *somewhat* culturally Christian, but I think religion doesn't really make any sense to him. He had history, both as a child and an adult, with Dr. Norman Vincent Peale. But IMVHO if he picked up anything from that, it was Peale's "positive thinking" approach.

    And fund/evo folks pushed him into being some kind of born-again Christian--clearly, IMNSHO, they're using and manipulating T for their religious politics.

    Not remotely defending him. I just think that the Bible probably doesn't mean anything to him at all.
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Snip -
    Not remotely defending him. I just think that the Bible probably doesn't mean anything to him at all. -Snip

    That he feels free to use it while it means nothing to him I find no less disgusting for that. It's political cultural appropriation of Christianity in the service of political expedience.
  • I have mixed feelings about the protests, obviously police murders and the crippling failures of the Trump regime should be resisted. But at the same time, I worry for the infection risk of the people out protesting and the vulnerability of BAME communities to Covid.

    That said, Trump is on course to become an autocratic dictator, in which case many more would die, and there maybe little time left to stop that evolution.
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    As to Trump's dictatorial instincts, my abiding hope rests in the American military, whose oath is to the Constitution. In my experience, they take that very seriously, indeed. Should Trump delay, or balk at the result of, the election, I would hope that the military would enforce the Constitution, not the will of the president to whom they did not swear allegiance, his position as C-i-C be damned.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And fund/evo folks pushed him into being some kind of born-again Christian--clearly, IMNSHO, they're using and manipulating T for their religious politics.

    I think Trump's the one manipulating them, FWIW.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    And fund/evo folks pushed him into being some kind of born-again Christian--clearly, IMNSHO, they're using and manipulating T for their religious politics.

    I think Trump's the one manipulating them, FWIW.

    Yes but they have spent 30 years trading righteousness for temporal power and have made themselves especially ripe for this kind of manipulation. Trump's ability to scoop up fundy/evo support did not come from nowhere. The Republican party has been playing this game for decades. Trump is just better at it and completely ruthless.

    AFZ

  • Yes, T uses the Christian Right. He uses everybody.

    ..But..

    --There were news stories, several years back, about how the CR said he was like Cyrus in the OT/Hebrew scriptures, a Persian, non-Jewish ruler who came to follow God. And that the CR purposely walked him through becoming saved--and it seemed like they weren't remotely interested in his salvation.

    --Interestingly, some Jews compare T positively with Cyrus:

    "Who is King Cyrus, and why did Netanyahu compare him to Trump?: Mysterious Persian ruler is credited for helping Jews return from exile to Jerusalem 2,500 years ago, rebuild the Temple" (The Times Of Israel).
    The idea that Trump is a modern-day Cyrus is particularly popular among evangelical Christians, in part to explain the gap between Trump’s, ahem, personal behavior and his support for policies that advance their agenda.

    --"Trump's Christian right worships power more than they worship God: In "The Power Worshippers," Katherine Stewart shows what really motivates the Christian right — and it's not Jesus" (Salon

    tl;dr: They want power; they want the US to be run Biblically; and they want a strong-man leader to enforce it.

    Me: People who want things to be run Biblically (and not just the Golden Rule and such) seem to never think about how that would play out. Kind of like occasional comments in the news that people don't want the gov't to mess with their lives--they just want things like Social Security. (US benefits program, primarily for senior citizens, their dependents, and persons with disabilities.)


    --"Former Evangelical Republican warns the religious right's support of Trump will harm Christianity; Former Republican warns that Trump and his evangelical allies were driving younger generations away from the church" (Salon).
    “The enthusiastic, uncritical embrace of President Trump by white evangelicals is among the most mind-blowing development of the Trump era,” Wehner wrote. “How can a group that for decades — and especially during the Bill Clinton presidency — insisted that character counts and that personal integrity is an essential component of presidential leadership not only turn a blind eye to the ethical and moral transgressions of Trump, but also constantly defend him?”

    Part of that explanation, Wehner wrote, is that many evangelicals believe they’re engaged in an existential struggle with “wicked” American liberals, and they feel that Trump is their strongest champion in that fight.

    “Many white evangelical Christians, then, are deeply fearful of what a Trump loss would mean for America, American culture, and American Christianity,” Wehner wrote. “If a Democrat is elected president, they believe, it might all come crashing down around us.”

    Epilogue: I grew up fundamentalist--not the rabid kind, and they believed "once saved, always saved". (A relief, in some ways--but then there was the question of whether you were ever actually saved.) And I'm a universalist now.

    But...put together the points above, and add in the idea (from last year, IIRC) that T is somehow the Second Coming*, or adopted by God as a prophet, or whatever.

    By their own lights (i.e., from their perspective), these folks are in deep doo-doo with God.

    Except they've managed to cover up their own lights.

    *And Jesus was very, very specific about not letting yourself be deceived on that point.
  • GK: "People who want things to be run Biblically (and not just the Golden Rule and such) seem to never think about how that would play out.

    I have little respect for those who want things done according to the bible but always the Old Testament rules mostly relating to sex and gender. They put this above what Jesus said about compassion for others and loving, not judging people etc. At best it's a very shallow faith IMO, based on OT rules, probably with finger waving and carrying a big black bible to show how 'righteous' they are.

    I call them Old Testament Christians as they rarely mention the Gospel - the core of our faith. I'm convinced they're deluded as they put off potential converts who see how "Christians" behave like judgemental jerks.

    I think they've been thrown off track and gone to the dark side.
  • All too true, alas - and it's the judgemental jerks who get into the news...

    Back to the Mad Emperor - a scary thought is that he might order the army to fire on protesting citizens. Supposing the army, quite understandably, refuses to do so, who will he order to shoot the army?
    :fearful:
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    I think the guys who imagine Trump is the new Cyrus are looking in the wrong part of their Bibles. They should try Matthew 24:15 onwards. 'The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.....'
  • An appropriate caption, indeed, for the photo of Trump standing in front of the damaged church...
    :angry:
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    MaryLouise--

    I doubt he's ever read much/any of it. That, specifically, isn't meant as a judgment. He's at lease *somewhat* culturally Christian, but I think religion doesn't really make any sense to him. He had history, both as a child and an adult, with Dr. Norman Vincent Peale. But IMVHO if he picked up anything from that, it was Peale's "positive thinking" approach.

    And fund/evo folks pushed him into being some kind of born-again Christian--clearly, IMNSHO, they're using and manipulating T for their religious politics.

    Not remotely defending him. I just think that the Bible probably doesn't mean anything to him at all.

    GK, I'm with you. I don't think he has any religious education or informed understanding of the Bible. He can act the part of an evangelical if persuaded, or if he thinks his followers will view him as messianic. What is repugnant is that he forced his way (teargas and policing) out to stand there holding up his prop just to show his followers he is not afraid and sheltering in a bunker, that he can use any ideology and symbol that suits him. He is Norman Vincent Peale mixed with Machiavelli.
  • MaryLouise--

    Your last sentence is quite an image! I'd maybe add in Voldemort (prime villain in the "Harry Potter" books"); Emperor Palpatine (from the original "Star Wars" movies); and a very, very angry and lonely child.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    I call them Old Testament Christians

    LEVITICANS
    - coined by Scalzi
    - popularized by Stephenson
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    So if they are Old Testament, why aren't they more like Jews? (Not Israelis, diaspora Jews).
  • Because those kosher rules are difficult.
  • Just to be clear:
    If your police force use teargas and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters then you are not living in a free country or a democracy.

    If the President who instigated this is literally waving a bible then that is blasphemy.

    Yes and yes.
    Golden Key wrote: »
    --"Former Evangelical Republican warns the religious right's support of Trump will harm Christianity; Former Republican warns that Trump and his evangelical allies were driving younger generations away from the church" (Salon).
    “Many white evangelical Christians, then, are deeply fearful of what a Trump loss would mean for America, American culture, and American Christianity,” Wehner wrote. “If a Democrat is elected president, they believe, it might all come crashing down around us.”

    Hard to say they wouldn't deserve it. As it is they are going to lose the possibility of evangelizing to their brand of Christianity (or what's left of it) for the foreseeable future and maybe forever.
    Anselmina wrote: »
    I think the guys who imagine Trump is the new Cyrus are looking in the wrong part of their Bibles. They should try Matthew 24:15 onwards. 'The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.....'

    I've seen one Orthodox priest call him that already.

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    If the President who instigated this is literally waving a bible then that is blasphemy.

    The fact that he wasn't struck by lightning and his hand didn't burst into flame proves there is no God.
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And fund/evo folks pushed him into being some kind of born-again Christian--clearly, IMNSHO, they're using and manipulating T for their religious politics.

    I think Trump's the one manipulating them, FWIW.

    How so? A movement born in racism elevated a racist to the presidency*, where he could implement racist policies. They demanded pro-life judges, and Trump has been willing to install judges who are issue anti-union, anti-environment, pro-big-business rulings. ("Pro-life judges" rule that way so consistently it has to be definitional, not coincidence.) Trump isn't manipulating the American religious right, he's giving them what they've always wanted; a dictatorship draped in the trappings of cheap piety.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    I think the guys who imagine Trump is the new Cyrus are looking in the wrong part of their Bibles. They should try Matthew 24:15 onwards. 'The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.....'

    I've seen one Orthodox priest call him that already.

    Eh, I've seen Eastern Orthodox say that about the Pope, too. They have a low bar for abominations.

  • LOL.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    I have a question. Why did that orange person in the White House not call on the military or demand governors to dominate protesters when armed protesters rushed into the Michigan capitol building? Or why not order law enforcement to use tear gas and rubber bullets on people cheering when they hear, "... the only good Democrat is a dead Democrat"?

    Oh! That's right!! It's because they are "very good people"!!! Warning, the last link is to a WaPo article.

    The inequity just makes me so sick.
  • From what I saw - and this, to be fair, may have been the result of editing - all he did was stand in front of St John's, hold the Bible, have his photo taken, and walk back to his not-quite-home. Open it, or refer to an inspirational passage? I doubt very much that he'd know where to begin . . . .
    Well, he could always start with Two Corinthians.

  • As to Trump's dictatorial instincts, my abiding hope rests in the American military, whose oath is to the Constitution. In my experience, they take that very seriously, indeed. Should Trump delay, or balk at the result of, the election, I would hope that the military would enforce the Constitution, not the will of the president to whom they did not swear allegiance, his position as C-i-C be damned.

    I'm late with this - but I hope that one way in which Trump will enable the Greatness of America to be displayed - Made Again, even - will be the degree to which her institutions are able to resist the shit he's throwing at them. I know these are terrible times, but I think compared to Turkey, Syria, Russia and so on things are far better than they could be - thanks to the commitment of her people, or most of them, to the kind of principle PG refers to above.

  • As to Trump's dictatorial instincts, my abiding hope rests in the American military, whose oath is to the Constitution. In my experience, they take that very seriously, indeed. Should Trump delay, or balk at the result of, the election, I would hope that the military would enforce the Constitution, not the will of the president to whom they did not swear allegiance, his position as C-i-C be damned.

    I'm late with this - but I hope that one way in which Trump will enable the Greatness of America to be displayed - Made Again, even - will be the degree to which her institutions are able to resist the shit he's throwing at them. I know these are terrible times, but I think compared to Turkey, Syria, Russia and so on things are far better than they could be - thanks to the commitment of her people, or most of them, to the kind of principle PG refers to above.

    Amen. There is still a lot to admire about America and her people.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Thank you, Robert. Some of us are still striving to keep our country's light shining.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    He is Norman Vincent Peale mixed with Machiavelli.

    No idea who Norman Vincent Peale is, but he's definitely not Machiavelli. Machiavelli had brains.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Emmanuel Macron wrote his Master's thesis on Machiavelli. It shows on occasion.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Jane R wrote: »
    No idea who Norman Vincent Peale is

    A very controversial 20th century churchman.
  • Trumpy has only got one ball
    handsies, has two but they are small
    brainsies, they're down the drainsies
    and ethics, he's got none at all!

    (You may sing this to the tune of Colonel Bogey March; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVYS4uw0as , additional verses welcome.)
  • Trumpy has only got one ball
    handsies, has two but they are small
    brainsies, they're down the drainsies
    and ethics, he's got none at all!

    (You may sing this to the tune of Colonel Bogey March; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVYS4uw0as , additional verses welcome.)

    Welcome in Circus perhaps. Not in Hell.

    DT
    HH
  • Jane R wrote: »
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    He is Norman Vincent Peale mixed with Machiavelli.

    No idea who Norman Vincent Peale is, but he's definitely not Machiavelli. Machiavelli had brains.

    NVP was the no-brains side of the match.
  • Oh, FFS!

    That stupid narcissistic arse is now claiming that people wear masks to signify their opposition to him. Stop making sensible public health actions into fucking political statements, you moron. So now a load of his voters are going to go around spreading the virus because they're loyal to him.
  • Well, as long as they spread it just amongst themselves...
    :naughty:

    Which, of course, they won't.
    :disappointed:
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    tRump says testing is overated. Yet everyone who comes anywhere near him has to be tested and tested again.

    🤔

    Why don’t they have the equivalent of ‘Prime Minister’s Questions’ so that he has to answer this and other questions?
  • But...but...The Great Orange God-Emperor is INFALLIBLE!

    How can He be asked questions? That would be to undermine his INFALLIBILITY!

    Also, His Imperial Orange Wossname must be protected AT ALL COSTS, and AT ALL TIMES, and IN ALL PLACES, from this completely false, untrue virus, cooked up by those entirely untrustworthy people in China, and False News, along with Librulz, Gayz, Horrid Brown People etc. etc.

    His Imperial Thingy knows a large number of Good People - Great People! - who will endorse this view.

    Lord, have mercy. You. Couldn't. Make. Him. Up...

    (I apologise for the shoutiness contained in this post).
  • He's also cut off funding for COVID-19 research (Independent, via Yahoo).

    Oh, and he said a couple of times, recently, that "Biden will be your president".

    And, interestingly, Joe Scarborough, host of the "Morning Joe", thinks maybe T will resign before the Nov. election (Huffpost, via Yahoo). I've wished for T to do that for some time. I'm not going to hold my breath; but I think quitting would ultimately be the best thing, even for T.
  • So Pence would take over and stand - what are his chances in November?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    And now you-know-who is planning a fireworks extravaganza on Mount Rushmore for the Fourth of July -- amid criticism that there is a huge danger they may spark wildfires. And oh, there's COVID-19 spread too.
  • He's even more desperate to be popular among morons.
  • News reports here are telling of massive increases in the number of new cases of Covid-19, along with the closing down (again) of bars etc. in some states.

    Meanwhile, in La-La Land, the Deputy Mad Emperor appears to think that the US is winning the fight...

    Surely, very few people (apart from the morons) now actually believe anything they hear coming from La-La Land?
  • Said Deputy Mad Emperor was recently asked (in a new virus briefing, IIRC) to justify T's rallies, given the pandemic and worsening stats. He went directly into a little speech about the Constitution permitting freedom of assembly, etc.
    {Boggle.}
  • If the Mad Emperor does abdicate before November, and his Deputy steps into the Imperial shoes, is he likely to cause more, or less, harm than the outgoing incumbent?

    Or, IOW, should I be careful about what I wish for?
    :scream:
  • Is he more King Lear or more Macbeth? (Ignore that he thinks he's Romeo)
  • He's even more desperate to be popular among morons.

    He's only popular among morons now.
  • Earlier today I saw a video on YouTube where he was criticising Biden because "he can't put a sentence together". Is the saying about pots and kettles known in America?
  • Yes, re saying. (Not focusing on you, Robert Armin.) I'm thinking that this is probably a good time for that saying to be retired--given what it really says.

    And yes, T's problems are far worse than Biden's.
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