Rossweisse RIP Rossweisse, HellHost and long-time Shipmate.

Robert Armin RIP Robert Armin, Shipmate of long-standing.

Thanksgiving for Deliverance from the Plague, or other common Sickness

When ought this be said? Even back when this was written it was possible to learn that the weekly numbers had not encreased, i.e that the peak had passed, but what about the long tail and second waves?

To me it doesn't seem to right to assert that God hast redeemed our souls when parishioners are still sitting 2 meters apart or on ventilators. Should this wait until the WHO have declared the dreadful visitation is over?
"O Lord God, who hast wounded us for our sins, and consumed us for our transgressions, by thy late heavy and dreadful visitation; and now, in the midst of judgement remembering mercy, hast redeemed our souls from the jaws of death: We offer unto thy fatherly goodness ourselves, our souls and bodies which thou hast delivered, to be a living sacrifice unto thee, always praising and magnifying thy mercies in the midst of thy Church; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen"

Comments

  • It should at least wait until a successful vaccine is available, surely.

    Or, perhaps, not used at all. Ever.
    (Given the number of other Plagues that afflict humankind!)

    YMMV.
  • yohan300yohan300 Shipmate
    Or, perhaps, not used at all. Ever.
    (Given the number of other Plagues that afflict humankind!)

    But don't we give thanks for lots of things when some people in the world, or even in the parish, are suffering in relation to that thing. For the Gift of a Child when there are people who are bereaved etc..?


  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    When is the pandemic over? I proposed three tests to be met:
    1. We have an effective treatment (getting there, the death rate given hospital admittance has dropped)
    2. We have an effective vaccine (not due until next year)
    3. Infection rates are low, probably at levels where admissions to hospital are lower than those for flu (nowhere near)

    I am willing to discuss what the third criteria level should be, that is pretty arbitrary and it assumes a clear public health strategy. However, basically it should be so low that it can easily be contained and the infection rate reduced when an outbreak occurs.

    I thank God for this day, even though I know a lot of people did not live to see it and I am personally grieving. We thank God for today's health although we know people are in hospital. In doing so I acknowledge the gift and also know I need to put it to good use. I think it is rather what we thank God for. The question, therefore, when we thank God so far for how long we have survived through the pandemic, is how can we live lives today based on that gratitude. How do we treat the day as a God-given opportunity? Some answers may include behaving responsibly towards Covid-19, seeking ways to alleviate the suffering of those with Covid-19, being kind towards those around us and valuing our friendships and family more. In other words, gratitude should not lead to complacency but to action
  • A few weeks ago I sang The Litany (Lutheran Book of Worship) a part of my Daily Prayer ...

    I wept through part of it, which was/is so so so close to home lately ...

    "From all sin, from all error, from all evil;
    from the cunning assaults of the devil;
    from an unprepared and evil death ...
    Good Lord, deliver us.

    From war, bloodshed, and violence;
    from corrupt and unjust government;
    from sedition and treason ...
    Good Lord, deliver us.

    From epidemic, drought, and famine;
    from fire and flood, earthquake, lightning and storm;
    and from everlasting death ...
    Good Lord, deliver us."
  • cgichardcgichard Shipmate
    Thankyou, @Fr Teilhard
  • Indeed. Very apposite, sadly, but perhaps worth remembering...and using!
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    What an awful prayer that is. God has wounded us for our sins? Is that even a Christian concept?
    I thought the God of the Christians was a loving Father who's Son was waounded for our sins.
  • Sorry @Alan29 - I assume you're referring to the prayer in the OP, rather than to the extract from the Lutheran Book of Worship?

    If so, I agree 100%.
  • cgichard wrote: »
    Thankyou, @Fr Teilhard

    My honor ...
  • Indeed. Very apposite, sadly, but perhaps worth remembering...and using!

    The Litany in The Lutheran Book of Worship is ... I'd say, close to perfect ...
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Sorry @Alan29 - I assume you're referring to the prayer in the OP, rather than to the extract from the Lutheran Book of Worship?

    If so, I agree 100%.

    Yes I was.
  • Thought so.

    Some of the stuff in the BCP is...umm...unusable...
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    What an awful prayer that is. God has wounded us for our sins? Is that even a Christian concept?
    I thought the God of the Christians was a loving Father who's Son was waounded for our sins.

    He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    <
  • I very much like the Litany as found in the Lutheran Book of Worship. Unfortunately, no version of it seems to have been included in the successor, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. (I think the LC-MS Lutheran Service Book still has a form of it.)

    The Great Litany as it appears in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship is closer to the version found in TEC’s 1979 Book of Common Prayer, though with some alterations drawn from other sources—not the quoted language from the LBW, though.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I very much like the Litany as found in the Lutheran Book of Worship. Unfortunately, no version of it seems to have been included in the successor, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. (I think the LC-MS Lutheran Service Book still has a form of it.)

    The Great Litany as it appears in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship is closer to the version found in TEC’s 1979 Book of Common Prayer, though with some alterations drawn from other sources—not the quoted language from the LBW, though.

    Yeah ...
    I'm not keen on the new "ELW" book ... for several reasons ...
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I very much like the Litany as found in the Lutheran Book of Worship. Unfortunately, no version of it seems to have been included in the successor, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. (I think the LC-MS Lutheran Service Book still has a form of it.)

    The Great Litany as it appears in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship is closer to the version found in TEC’s 1979 Book of Common Prayer, though with some alterations drawn from other sources—not the quoted language from the LBW, though.

    Yeah ...
    I'm not keen on the new "ELW" book ... for several reasons ...
    As is the case with any number of things, there are aspects of ELW that I quite like, and other aspects that make me say “Now why did they go and do that?”

    But maybe that’s better left for a thread on liturgical books.

  • If people want a litany, one of my congregation's members created one. I have linked to it on Facebook because the alternative would be me putting it up somewhere on the Internet. There is a later version (please contact the author for it) but you have permission to use, I would guess also adapt (IMHO it needs a good editor as some of the wording is just odd and he has not included at least one Saint who might be effective).
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    What an awful prayer that is. God has wounded us for our sins? Is that even a Christian concept?
    I thought the God of the Christians was a loving Father who's Son was waounded for our sins.

    Well, it does seem to be at cross purposes with a lot of current Christian thinking, but throughout the OT God is often rather unpleasantly, actively 'hands on', and recall also the pithy Hebrews 10: 31. Much of Christianity is an exercise in squaring the circle. Or, as Rabbi Jonathan Sacks put it (I think that he was quoting someone else), always arguing with God, losing the argument, but having to argue anyway. (He was, of course, talking about an individual's relationship with God, not a specific religion.)
  • see: Job
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    What an awful prayer that is. God has wounded us for our sins? Is that even a Christian concept?
    I thought the God of the Christians was a loving Father who's Son was waounded for our sins.

    Well, it does seem to be at cross purposes with a lot of current Christian thinking, but throughout the OT God is often rather unpleasantly, actively 'hands on', and recall also the pithy Hebrews 10: 31. Much of Christianity is an exercise in squaring the circle. Or, as Rabbi Jonathan Sacks put it (I think that he was quoting someone else), always arguing with God, losing the argument, but having to argue anyway. (He was, of course, talking about an individual's relationship with God, not a specific religion.)

    It depends whether or not you see scripture in terms of the societies from which it sprung, and whether you see Tradition as God still at work in his people, and whether you see the Spirit still speaking to us through the "signs of the times."
    I guess those questions mark a fairly strong divide among Christians.
  • It is hard to remember, sometimes, that the Old Testament is really only intelligible (?) from the viewpoint of a nomadic tribe, wandering about the Middle East somewhere back in the Bronze Age...

    Those who declare firmly that what is written in the OT is the Very Word Of God, unchanging and unchangeable, are not very helpful when it comes to dealing with a much wider world in the 21stC.

    I prefer to concentrate on what Jesus said and did, difficult enough though that may be!
  • Quite so, BF, quite so. I've always described my reading of the OT as anthropological, but which often gleans wisdom. Other times, it's not edifying.
  • Quite so, BF, quite so. I've always described my reading of the OT as anthropological, but which often gleans wisdom. Other times, it's not edifying.

    Quite so, indeed ... That we sometimes some of us expect or even demand that The Bible should be "edifying" throughout is obviously not realistic on our part ...

    SOME of us find this observed fact to be not only acceptable, but flat out ... revealing ... of the character and authenticity of the Holy Books ... They're NOT sugar-coated rose*color*glasses made-up tales told in order to impress us or send us swooning in ecstasy ... They're REAL -- about REAL life ... and REAL people of faith ... and The REAL "God" ...
  • Yes, indeed - real people, living in a real, but different, situation...though I guess human nature remains much the same in every time and place!
  • The OT is people writings collected about where they understood God's action within the memory of the people of God. We can learn a lot about what we project onto God from it, at the very least.
  • Yes, indeed - real people, living in a real, but different, situation...though I guess human nature remains much the same in every time and place!

    Ask a modern Jewish person living in The Land of Israel ...
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The OT is people writings collected about where they understood God's action within the memory of the people of God. We can learn a lot about what we project onto God from it, at the very least.

    Madame and I have been changing our perceptions of the OT (and the New for that matter). Rather than imagining the events occurring in some imagined place as depicted in children's books, we've been consciously trying to imagine the towns, villages and countryside as they really were then. Hard to describe it more exactly than that, but it puts a whole new perspective on the sower in the fields, Jacob's journey, even th parable in the lectionary recently of the sower.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The OT is people writings collected about where they understood God's action within the memory of the people of God. We can learn a lot about what we project onto God from it, at the very least.

    Madame and I have been changing our perceptions of the OT (and the New for that matter). Rather than imagining the events occurring in some imagined place as depicted in children's books, we've been consciously trying to imagine the towns, villages and countryside as they really were then. Hard to describe it more exactly than that, but it puts a whole new perspective on the sower in the fields, Jacob's journey, even th parable in the lectionary recently of the sower.

    When/IF we allow our selves to be entered into the Stories, they SPEAK even to supposedly modern people like us ...
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Not just entering into the Stories, but into the life at the time and place that the stories were written
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    They often appear to be brutal stories of a terrified people trying to cope with a fascist God to me.

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    They often appear to be brutal stories of a terrified people trying to cope with a fascist God to me.

    We have the Easter Vigil where we have the story of Abraham and Isaac (WTF is that all about apart from playing a nasty trick on a father) followed by the mass slaughter of the Pharoahs troops in the Red Sea. As the organist I find myself doing a lot of distraction activity to avoid tuning in to those particularly unpleasant folk tales.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Not just entering into the Stories, but into the life at the time and place that the stories were written

    Yes ...
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    They often appear to be brutal stories of a terrified people trying to cope with a fascist God to me.

    "Appearances" may not always be accurate reflections of Reality ...
    see, e.g.: Job ...
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