Moreover the governors, lieutenant governors, and election officials in Republican-led states are furious. Trump is saying they don't know how to do their jobs.
I'd like to draw attention to this, as it points up something hopeful that may calm y'all's nerves.
They are trying to win within the rules of the U.S. system. They are spending considerable money and effort to fuck around within the rules of the U.S. system. They have not, so far, said: "Chuck it all, who cares about 270, who cares about the voters, I have a big glorious nuclear bomb" or even "I have all these idiot militia brainwashees".
For clarity, what @Lamb Chopped regards as "within the rules of the U.S. system" is using the courts to discard enough legally cast ballots to change the outcome of an election. I'd like to say this kind of disenfranchisement effort isn't "the U.S. system", but it's hard to argue against a century of Jim Crow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't say it was legitimate or good, what they were doing. But there's a qualitative difference between the thief who breaks into your house by night, hiding his face, and the guy who rents a great big fucking BULLDOZER and breaks down your front door at 1 p.m. across the street from the police station.
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
Re Arizona. I’d heard they had thrown in the sponge re that submission. Provided the Wisconsin majority holds up through recount plus any legal nonsense there, Biden is on at least 270 uncontested votes.
I wonder? Maybe Trump is going to throw the sponge in altogether? Even from his perspective, what’s the point of pressing on now?
BTW the major media decision desks, except for Fox, have called Georgia for Biden as well.
Lamb Chopped, I did get your point. I’m not sure that seeking to construct the appearance of legitimacy by using any means at hand to delegitimise the people’s vote in key States showed a genuine concern for democracy and the constitution. But it’s different to using the army to stay in power. Still pretty sinful in my book.
No, I'm dead certain it doesn't show respect for democracy or anything else. But I do think it is a reassuring sign for those of us who are imagining military coups, organized major violence, and so forth. The longer Trump & co. attempt to give the appearance of following the rules, the more they reinforce the pre-existing belief even in Trump followers that democratic process is in fact to be followed, rather than forcibly overthrown. And that can only work in our favor, when it comes to promoting peace.
(Note that I am not saying Trump & co. are doing this deliberately. I don't think they have the brains for that, or the morals, and I don't think they deserve credit for that. I just think that the democratic cultural rules of the U.S. are still so firmly embedded, even (surprise, surprise) in Trump himself, that they form an extra invisible safeguard for the rest of us. And every day that passes with him still pretending to color within the lines is a step further away from the outright major violence many feared. That sort of thing is harder to get started the longer you are past the, er, inciting event.
I wonder? Maybe Trump is going to throw the sponge in altogether? Even from his perspective, what’s the point of pressing on now?
Energizing his donation base, of course. He has a lot of debt to pay off. Stopping now would stop all those donations he's soliciting, supposedly to fund the election fight.
If I had to guess, I'd think his major focus now (in so far as he has one, since I think a lot of his time is spent moping and tantrumming) is
a) fundraising, mainly for personal reasons, quite likely with the intention of illegal siphoning off of $$$ if he can swing it, on account of
b) figuring out how the hell he's going to avoid the financial catastrophe that is just waiting for him to exit the White House,
c) and what the hell he should do next to avoid investigations, jail, fines, and massive revelations of skulduggery, again, ready to pounce as soon as the Secret Service escort him out, and
d) (which he probably spends most of his time daydreaming about, as it's the only thing that could restore his ego) the chance to start a media company/channel/TV station/what have you which will be all-Trump, all the time, and in which he can bask in the adoration of his followers, who will always think him right.
I was just watching Tr*mp speak (CNN online) - I was finding it rather emetic so had to give up. It was about the COVID response, and at one point he said:
“....this administration will never go into lockdown, hopefully the ne... well, whatever administration, we’ll have to see what happens...”
Not sure I got that quite verbatim, but he did nearly indicate that the next administration was not going to be under his control...
@Barnabas62 - I think you may be right about the sponge...
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
He’ll announce that he plans to run in 2024 and will encourage his faithful to keep the faith (and stump up to pay for opposition now and in the future).
No way he’s going away.
It’s quite a nice segue. It gives the faithful hope for the future despite the disappointment of the present.
He’ll announce that he plans to run in 2024 and will encourage his faithful to keep the faith (and stump up to pay for opposition now and in the future).
No way he’s going away.
His daughter Mary thinks he will announce the intent, but not actually run because he cannot bear the thought of another loss.
He will remain in the public eye and will continue to do damage to American democracy.
I do think Trump will gas on about future political runs and so forth, but primarily as a way to keep the money and adulation flowing. I doubt in his heart of hearts he really wants to regain the White House and all the work (and expectations) that go with it. Stay in it, yes; leave and then regain it, no. The bit he liked the most was the always-on ego-stroking adulation and attention; he can get that elsewhere (or so he imagines).
His daughter Mary thinks he will announce the intent, but not actually run because he cannot bear the thought of another loss.
He will remain in the public eye and will continue to do damage to American democracy.
His niece, actually. Daughter of the big bro who died of alcoholism, and made him swear to never drink. I wonder if that makes for interesting family dynamics.
If I had to guess, I'd think his major focus now (in so far as he has one, since I think a lot of his time is spent moping and tantrumming) is
a) fundraising, mainly for personal reasons, quite likely with the intention of illegal siphoning off of $$$ if he can swing it, on account of
b) figuring out how the hell he's going to avoid the financial catastrophe that is just waiting for him to exit the White House,
c) and what the hell he should do next to avoid investigations, jail, fines, and massive revelations of skulduggery, again, ready to pounce as soon as the Secret Service escort him out, and
d) (which he probably spends most of his time daydreaming about, as it's the only thing that could restore his ego) the chance to start a media company/channel/TV station/what have you which will be all-Trump, all the time, and in which he can bask in the adoration of his followers, who will always think him right.
Dang, that was a long sentence. My apologies.
Spot on. He's reverting to type and running scams to get the money in.
Odd. I went looking for info on what he said, and found very little. Just about everything announced that he *would* be speaking today. Some didn't even have that, at least that I could find. I think it's been close to 3 hrs. since he finished his 45-min speech.
His daughter Mary thinks he will announce the intent, but not actually run because he cannot bear the thought of another loss.
He will remain in the public eye and will continue to do damage to American democracy.
His niece, actually. Daughter of the big bro who died of alcoholism, and made him swear to never drink. I wonder if that makes for interesting family dynamics.
Odd. I went looking for info on what he said, and found very little. Just about everything announced that he *would* be speaking today. Some didn't even have that, at least that I could find. I think it's been close to 3 hrs. since he finished his 45-min speech.
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
President-elect Biden has been criticised for not confronting the fraud claims more directly, but maybe his team have looked at the research? Perhaps not taking it seriously and adopting the ‘nothing to see here’ narrative is the best response?
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
Trump bears a heavy load of responsiblity for this. If he had conceded with a modicum of grace that 70% would have dropped significantly I bet.
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
President-elect Biden has been criticised for not confronting the fraud claims more directly, but maybe his team have looked at the research? Perhaps not taking it seriously and adopting the ‘nothing to see here’ narrative is the best response?
We wouldn't have Freemen on the Land if things being demonstrably false actually stopped people believing them.
Is it 70% of Republicans don't believe that the elections were free and fair? I read yesterday (WaPo?) that 80% of Americans believe that Biden is president-elect. The numbers don't jibe. I understand that they're not the same questions, but one can infer one result from the other. All I'm saying is that I'm seeing numbers all over the metaphorical map. A numbers fog.
If I were asked by a pollster if I thought the US election was free and fair I don't know what I'd say. No, but Biden won despite Republican vote suppression?
Is it 70% of Republicans don't believe that the elections were free and fair? I read yesterday (WaPo?) that 80% of Americans believe that Biden is president-elect. The numbers don't jibe. I understand that they're not the same questions, but one can infer one result from the other. All I'm saying is that I'm seeing numbers all over the metaphorical map. A numbers fog.
Remember that "Republicans" likely means registered voters who are registered as Republicans rather than merely people who happened to vote for Trump, many of whom will be registered independents and a handful will be registered Democrats.
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
Trump bears a heavy load of responsiblity for this. If he had conceded with a modicum of grace that 70% would have dropped significantly I bet.
If he had a modicum of grace, he wouldn't be president.
But he wants to spread this out, he wants people to believe his narrative. The strife following this election is part of his intent.
I saw a survey that 70% of Republicans do not believe the election was free and fair. Which I guess illuminates the issue.
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
Trump bears a heavy load of responsiblity for this. If he had conceded with a modicum of grace that 70% would have dropped significantly I bet.
Also if he hadn't been fanning the flames in the months before the election, talking about how "mail-in voting" was intrinsically untrustworthy.
The Porter Wright thing may also have something to do with this*:
One [ Porter Wright ] partner, Jeremy A. Mercer, spoke at a Trump campaign news conference in Pennsylvania last week. Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, introduced Mr. Mercer as a volunteer election observer who had been “obstructed in a horrible way.” Mr. Mercer added, “We’re there, supposedly observing, but we can’t see.”
Neither mentioned that Mr. Mercer was a lawyer at the firm that was representing Mr. Trump’s campaign. Reached on Friday, Mr. Mercer declined to comment.
The Four Seasons Landscaping press conference truly is the gift that keeps on giving (and the grift that keeps on grifting). Let's see if the Pennsylvania Bar Association shows any interest in a lawyer offering what seems like fabricated evidence on behalf of his client.
*The New York Times has a paywall limiting non-subscribers to a certain number of articles per calendar month. Only click through if you want to use one of your monthly NYT clicks to read about a prominent law firm abandoning Trump.
He doesn't *want* that 70% to decrease. If anything, he wants it at 100%: because he can't bear to lose; because of his deep, insatiable need for positive attention; because, once he's out of office, it looks like a whole bunch of dirty laundry will be on display; and because he's afraid of prison.
Given all that, from his perspective, it's not remotely in his best interest to concede.
BTW, he's reportedly asked Giuliani to take over the campaign-related lawsuits. That alone dooms his lawsuits, never mind that they're not legit to begin with.
If I were asked by a pollster if I thought the US election was free and fair I don't know what I'd say. No, but Biden won despite Republican vote suppression?
I'd say "Biden won fairly; I'm happy, especially about Kamala as VP".
:yipee:
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
edited November 2020
I think you have to divide the fairness of voting and counting from the fairness of campaigning and voter registration.
To go further, I think there are powerful grounds for arguing that in some States there have been rigid restraints on voter registration which seem to have been designed quite specifically to reduce the potential democratic vote. And the attempts both to make the postal delivery service more uncertain and clamp down on late arriving mail ballots were equally part of that process.
But once Americans voted, the processes of counting the vote have been fair. The DHS has confirmed that. And it is those processes which are currently the subject of protests in the streets.
I did a fair bit of law-related work in university, but I'm not a lawyer, so I informally canvassed an unscientific sample of lawyers, i.e., some friends (nine) across the political spectrum, with the unscientific polling question, "So, what do you think about the court challenges?" Not one said that they had any legitimacy, and the biggest laugh was from a Republican.
I did a fair bit of law-related work in university, but I'm not a lawyer, so I informally canvassed an unscientific sample of lawyers, i.e., some friends (nine) across the political spectrum, with the unscientific polling question, "So, what do you think about the court challenges?" Not one said that they had any legitimacy, and the biggest laugh was from a Republican.
That's the general view. They are just a device to support a fictional narrative, create delay and confusion.
I read "confusion" as constipation initially (my confusion). Brief though t was that America is in need of a laxative so as to poop this turd out. Perhaps a stool softener and enema also. There's a lot of other turds in the Republican rectum.
Somehow, I think T would fare either nightmarishly horribly in prison, or very well.
The first, if people were violent to him (in all sorts of ways ). I doubt he's in any shape to defend himself, and horrible things happen in American prisons.
The second, if he has enough verified money and assets, influence, and charisma to persuade people not to hurt him--or hire them to protect him.
TBH, I'm not big on (long-term?) incarceration for anyone--unless maybe for people who've done something really heinous, and can't/won't stop. I've always said I just want him out of office, legally and non-violently, and that's still true. Does his behavior deserve punishment and incarceration? Yes.
But he's horribly, horribly broken, disturbed, demented, etc., etc. Personally, I'd prefer that he was sent some place helpful in the countryside. Nice high walls, to make him feel safe and to keep us safe. Lots and lots of help, of all the kinds he needs. Minders 24/7. Gentle exercise, rehab, maybe a hobby or arts and crafts. Possibly convert Mar-a-Lago into such a place. Possibly with a putting green or smallish golf course.
Quite possibly, he should never be released. If his family has any access, it should just be for the occasional visit. IMVHO, they all desperately need to break up the sick family system, and limit all contact with each other.
[...] The Four Seasons Landscaping press conference truly is the gift that keeps on giving (and the grift that keeps on grifting). [...]
They now have merchandise along the lines of 'Make America Rake Again', 'Lawn and Order', and the most recent one, 'In Sod We Trust'. - We wish them success.
Trump would be treated like a prince in jail. But his conviction and punishment is necessary to restore integrity to the system and to set a standard, as Croesus has been saying for years.
Trump would be treated like a prince in jail. But his conviction and punishment is necessary to restore integrity to the system and to set a standard, as Croesus has been saying for years.
Comments
For clarity, what @Lamb Chopped regards as "within the rules of the U.S. system" is using the courts to discard enough legally cast ballots to change the outcome of an election. I'd like to say this kind of disenfranchisement effort isn't "the U.S. system", but it's hard to argue against a century of Jim Crow.
On a related note, Trump seems to have given up on this tactic in Arizona [PDF].
I wonder? Maybe Trump is going to throw the sponge in altogether? Even from his perspective, what’s the point of pressing on now?
BTW the major media decision desks, except for Fox, have called Georgia for Biden as well.
Lamb Chopped, I did get your point. I’m not sure that seeking to construct the appearance of legitimacy by using any means at hand to delegitimise the people’s vote in key States showed a genuine concern for democracy and the constitution. But it’s different to using the army to stay in power. Still pretty sinful in my book.
(Note that I am not saying Trump & co. are doing this deliberately. I don't think they have the brains for that, or the morals, and I don't think they deserve credit for that. I just think that the democratic cultural rules of the U.S. are still so firmly embedded, even (surprise, surprise) in Trump himself, that they form an extra invisible safeguard for the rest of us. And every day that passes with him still pretending to color within the lines is a step further away from the outright major violence many feared. That sort of thing is harder to get started the longer you are past the, er, inciting event.
Energizing his donation base, of course. He has a lot of debt to pay off. Stopping now would stop all those donations he's soliciting, supposedly to fund the election fight.
a) fundraising, mainly for personal reasons, quite likely with the intention of illegal siphoning off of $$$ if he can swing it, on account of
b) figuring out how the hell he's going to avoid the financial catastrophe that is just waiting for him to exit the White House,
c) and what the hell he should do next to avoid investigations, jail, fines, and massive revelations of skulduggery, again, ready to pounce as soon as the Secret Service escort him out, and
d) (which he probably spends most of his time daydreaming about, as it's the only thing that could restore his ego) the chance to start a media company/channel/TV station/what have you which will be all-Trump, all the time, and in which he can bask in the adoration of his followers, who will always think him right.
Dang, that was a long sentence. My apologies.
“....this administration will never go into lockdown, hopefully the ne... well, whatever administration, we’ll have to see what happens...”
Not sure I got that quite verbatim, but he did nearly indicate that the next administration was not going to be under his control...
@Barnabas62 - I think you may be right about the sponge...
No way he’s going away.
It’s quite a nice segue. It gives the faithful hope for the future despite the disappointment of the present.
On the contrary. It was a work of rhetorical art.
He will remain in the public eye and will continue to do damage to American democracy.
I do think Trump will gas on about future political runs and so forth, but primarily as a way to keep the money and adulation flowing. I doubt in his heart of hearts he really wants to regain the White House and all the work (and expectations) that go with it. Stay in it, yes; leave and then regain it, no. The bit he liked the most was the always-on ego-stroking adulation and attention; he can get that elsewhere (or so he imagines).
I also agree with Lamb Chopped that he probably doesn’t want the job. He likes adulation and he hates losing.
That's the proposed Proud Boys rally he's talking about there.
The Pennsylvania court case will go away next week. It’s now nonsense as was the one in Arizona.
His niece, actually. Daughter of the big bro who died of alcoholism, and made him swear to never drink. I wonder if that makes for interesting family dynamics.
Spot on. He's reverting to type and running scams to get the money in.
Odd. I went looking for info on what he said, and found very little. Just about everything announced that he *would* be speaking today. Some didn't even have that, at least that I could find. I think it's been close to 3 hrs. since he finished his 45-min speech.
I did find this article at The Hill: "Trump breaks public silence, but doesn't talk election".
It's longish, but also goes into related matters.
I just can’t keep up! Some 18 lawsuits have just been kicked by judges in various States and I’m not sure how many are still awaiting judgment.
Here is an article from the Guardian on his ‘slip of the tongue’:
Nearly an admission of defeat
There is a hunger for lies out there. That’s what this election has brought into sharp focus. The extent to which mind manipulation is an increasingly potent factor in determining votes. The GOP is, at least for the time being, under the power of the cult of personality. Even if it undermines the democratic process.
It is difficult to correct false perceptions too - some research suggests that public attempts to correct may backfire and increase commitment to false beliefs - and even when people are directly informed of deception, they may not be able to adjust their beliefs effectively.
President-elect Biden has been criticised for not confronting the fraud claims more directly, but maybe his team have looked at the research? Perhaps not taking it seriously and adopting the ‘nothing to see here’ narrative is the best response?
Trump bears a heavy load of responsiblity for this. If he had conceded with a modicum of grace that 70% would have dropped significantly I bet.
We wouldn't have Freemen on the Land if things being demonstrably false actually stopped people believing them.
Remember that "Republicans" likely means registered voters who are registered as Republicans rather than merely people who happened to vote for Trump, many of whom will be registered independents and a handful will be registered Democrats.
But he wants to spread this out, he wants people to believe his narrative. The strife following this election is part of his intent.
Also if he hadn't been fanning the flames in the months before the election, talking about how "mail-in voting" was intrinsically untrustworthy.
The Porter Wright thing may also have something to do with this*:
The Four Seasons Landscaping press conference truly is the gift that keeps on giving (and the grift that keeps on grifting). Let's see if the Pennsylvania Bar Association shows any interest in a lawyer offering what seems like fabricated evidence on behalf of his client.
*The New York Times has a paywall limiting non-subscribers to a certain number of articles per calendar month. Only click through if you want to use one of your monthly NYT clicks to read about a prominent law firm abandoning Trump.
Given all that, from his perspective, it's not remotely in his best interest to concede.
BTW, he's reportedly asked Giuliani to take over the campaign-related lawsuits. That alone dooms his lawsuits, never mind that they're not legit to begin with.
I'd say "Biden won fairly; I'm happy, especially about Kamala as VP".
:yipee:
To go further, I think there are powerful grounds for arguing that in some States there have been rigid restraints on voter registration which seem to have been designed quite specifically to reduce the potential democratic vote. And the attempts both to make the postal delivery service more uncertain and clamp down on late arriving mail ballots were equally part of that process.
But once Americans voted, the processes of counting the vote have been fair. The DHS has confirmed that. And it is those processes which are currently the subject of protests in the streets.
This. Very much this. (Is that TS Eliot, or maybe George Eliot, BTW?)
Plus people can talk about very different ideas/experiences of reality, and not realize it.
E.g. people at a picnic comment on how blue the sky is. Do individuals mean:
--it's not raining?
--it's not that horrible smokey orange that US West Coast wildfires caused?
--it's the color of their grandma's eyes?
--it's due to qualities of refracted light?
--they're thinking of the "Seattle" theme song from the TV series "Here Come The Brides"? ("The bluest skies you've ever seen are in Seattle...")
--if there isn't rain soon, crops may die?
--dang, do I have to mow the lawn???
Etc.
People can be on different "pages" without realizing it. Heck, they can be in different "galaxies" without realizing it.
On that alone, it's amazing the world isn't worse than it is.
That's the general view. They are just a device to support a fictional narrative, create delay and confusion.
Eugene Debs did in 1920.
The first, if people were violent to him (in all sorts of ways
The second, if he has enough verified money and assets, influence, and charisma to persuade people not to hurt him--or hire them to protect him.
TBH, I'm not big on (long-term?) incarceration for anyone--unless maybe for people who've done something really heinous, and can't/won't stop. I've always said I just want him out of office, legally and non-violently, and that's still true. Does his behavior deserve punishment and incarceration? Yes.
But he's horribly, horribly broken, disturbed, demented, etc., etc. Personally, I'd prefer that he was sent some place helpful in the countryside. Nice high walls, to make him feel safe and to keep us safe. Lots and lots of help, of all the kinds he needs. Minders 24/7. Gentle exercise, rehab, maybe a hobby or arts and crafts. Possibly convert Mar-a-Lago into such a place. Possibly with a putting green or smallish golf course.
Quite possibly, he should never be released. If his family has any access, it should just be for the occasional visit. IMVHO, they all desperately need to break up the sick family system, and limit all contact with each other.
FWIW.
They now have merchandise along the lines of 'Make America Rake Again', 'Lawn and Order', and the most recent one, 'In Sod We Trust'. - We wish them success.
Pour encourager les autres
[In order to encourage the others]