Spiritual 'actions'

There's a lot on this board about songs and sermons, words and music.

A reference to 'action songs' on another thread set me thinking about gestures and physical actions in worship.

Everything from kneeling to raising hands, to clapping, swaying, genuflecting, bowing, 'metanias' and prostrations and making the sign of the cross etc.

I'm wanting to steer clear of personal preferences in this thread - I'm afraid 'action songs' would send me fleeing down the road as fast as my legs could carry me ... whereas I'm gradually losing my self-consciousness about making 'metanias', kidding icons, lighting candles and so forth.

It's all down to what we become acclimatised to.

Putting that aside, I'm interested in what physical actions of any kind in any tradition- and not only Christian ones - convey and help each community express.

It could be a sense of collective solidarity, or a demonstration of personal piety (something we need to be wary of) or something that helps convey a sense of the numinous or draw attention to a particularly valued or important part of the worship.

I used to know a Baptist minister who, after making a quip or an aside during his sermon would draw himself up to his full height and pull a face as if he were about to plunge his face into a bucket of cold water before resuming his 'text' as it were.

It was an affectation certainly but an effective one. It demonstrated that we were to take the scriptures seriously.

In a different tradition there might be a procession of the Gospel Book and censing etc.

How can physical gestures help us in worship?

Let's give examples.

Bearing in mind, as Mother Maria of Paris reminds us, that we won't be asked how many prostration we made or services we attended but whether we fed the poor, clothed the naked ...

Comments

  • Ha - 'kidding icons' - what a typo!

    I might be able to 'kid' some people but not those the icons represent.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I'm wanting to steer clear of personal preferences in this thread - I'm afraid 'action songs' would send me fleeing down the road as fast as my legs could carry me ...
    You say you want you to steer clear of personal preferences, and you then immediately state a personal preference? If you really want to steer clear of personal preferences, perhaps don’t mention your own. :wink:

    It's all down to what we become acclimatised to. . . .

    How can physical gestures help us in worship?
    I come from a tradition historically known for eschewing if not being downright suspicious of gestures in worship beyond those sacramentally essential (like breaking bread) or postures beyond standing, sitting and, in very limited circumstances, kneeling.* I somehow escaped that aversion and suspicion, and have always been comfortable with and even attracted to use of gestures.

    Fortunately for me and others of my tribe like me, there’s been a notable change over the last 50+ years—not a change where you’ll see a church full of Presbyterians making the sign of the cross, but a change where you might see a minister do it when pronouncing the blessing, and you might see a handful of congregants do it, with no one else batting an eye. Or you may see quite a few more than a handful of congregants, while coming up to take Communion, dip a finger in the font and touch it their forehead, or make a small cross on their forehead.

    This is all the result of some very intentional work done by seminary professors, liturgical writers and other leaders in the PC(USA) to get us out of our heads and get us willing to embody our worship more. It’s been done not with a “we all ought” approach, but rather with an approach of “those who find it helpful should feel free to.”
    * I am reminded of the old joke about the Scottish sailor who found himself in an Anglican Church one Sunday. When asked how he handled the differences, particularly the standing–kneeling–sitting, he answered, “I simply threw out the anchor of my Calvinism and rode the waves.”


  • Ha ha ...

    Yes, I was conscious of the irony when mentioning my own. I wanted to get them out of the way ... 😉

    I think I've posted on this topic before and it is something I'd like to seriously explore, so I'm pleased you responded and from a Reformed position too.

    I'm not knocking the traditional Reformed position on these things as I can understand the objections even though I wouldn't accept those objections myself.

    One could argue that a lack of 'gestures' or physical movement is in itself a physical response. In the same way that plain, bare whitewashed walls are themselves a design or aesthetic choice - as well as a theological one.

    I know some Presbyterians go in for physical expression in worship as well as decoration and so on.

    I'm interested in what forms these things take in other traditions.

  • Well, Lutherans tend to be up and down, up and down, from pew to standing, all through the services. It gets almost aerobic sometimes!

    I had to record the total time spent standing so I could pass it on to my physical therapy people. It came to just half of the entire service, but broken into several segments. Nothing compared to the Orthodox, but quite unusual for most churches I've visited.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Catholics go up and down too, and do all sorts of other things in church that remind us that you need a body to be a human being and that grace is bestowed via sacraments which all involve the body in one way or another.
  • that is the power of sacraments, to my mind. It is, however, why involuntary immobility can be very isolating. Not by any conscious action of those around one, but because one can't be part of the body that is acting, and one's own body can't act.
  • Or that's how I found it for the few months when I couldn't do this.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited March 28
    My daughter in law (who shall remain nameless) studied dancing in college. Expressive dancing--kind of like ballet. Consequently, when she was ordained into the United Church of Christ ministry, she did a dance as part of that service. She continues to sponsor retreats and in dance and yoga.

    In the fog of my mind, I do remember when David brought the tabernacle to Jerusalem the Bible said David danced before the altar (and did not get stuck down).

    I can think of a number of hymns that have the 3/4 tempo of a waltz

    Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing.

    O Worship the King

    My Faith Looks up to Thee

    I Come with Joy.

    Once, our previous pastor encouraged the congregation to get up to dance to the hymn of Shine Jesus Shine (had to be adapted a bit).

    We did it only once, though.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    The children in our church "dance" in the aisles if we end with something like the Shine hymn. Its totally spontaneous and rather lovely.
    The elderly get a bit jiggly in the hips department. Thats lovely too.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    This thread makes me think of the old rhyme:
    Piskie, Piskie, bow and ben’,
    On yer knees and up again.
    Presbie, Presbie, too proud to bend,
    Sit ye doon on man’s chief end.


    I don't know the vintage, probably 19th century or early 20th, but does broadly reflect the differences between the Kirk and the SEC in this area. I was flummoxed on first worshipping in the Kirk that the pews were too close to permit kneeling.
  • Dancing was common in the independent evangelical charismatic churches here in the '80s and '90s.

    I've not seen much of in recent years, so I don't know whether it's still a thing in charismatic circles.

    It was more a bop up and down 'charismatic hop' than 'liturgical dance'.

    I have seen mime used in worship too.
  • Dancing is still a thing in my charismatic church and we also have the occasional liturgical dance. Two of our church members run a Christian dance company.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    There was a bit of a buzz for liturgical dance between about 1970 and 1990 but I don't think I've encountered it since. It was clear at the time that it did something important for the people who did it - almost exclusively ladies from memory - that it gave the participants something they weren't finding anywhere else, but I can't say that watching it did anything much for me at all.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Standing then sitting.

    Sounds a strange thing to distract me, but it does.

    I'm a Methodist through and through - my Dad was a Minister. Us Methodists sit down after the hymn. No 'please be seated' is ever said, we just do it. And this is true for all the many, many different Methodist churches I've been to.

    Now, once a month, Mr Boogs plays at the C of E in the next village. I go with him as we only have one car.

    It catches me every time. I sit down, notice that everyone is still standing, so I stand up thinking I've missed something - only to then hear 'please be seated'.

    By then my poor brain has lost all track of the service 🙄
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    That puts me in mind of joint services when "Let us pray" makes RCs stand and others kneel.
    We were invited to sit for the reading of the Passion this morning, though we usually stand for the gospel reading.
  • We stand for the Gospel reading. In fact those of us who are able stand throughout the service.

    The only time I sit down is when the Epistle is read. Most people remain standing as they don't know the form.

    We have have odd customs. We don't 'prostrate' at the consecration of the elements on Sundays as it's the 'day of Resurrection' even during Lent but we do so at mid-week Liturgies.

    Practices vary between parishes and jurisdictions, which is fine of course, except some people insist that their local practice is the correct way when there is nothing in the canons to say so.

    Like the RCs and charismatics of all stripes, the Orthodox believe in the use of the body and physical gestures in worship.

    We also believe it's none of our business what other people do in church services but we don't always adhere to that. Lord have mercy!

  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Alan29 wrote: »
    That puts me in mind of joint services when "Let us pray" makes RCs stand and others kneel.
    We were invited to sit for the reading of the Passion this morning, though we usually stand for the gospel reading.

    I find increasingly that people sit rather than kneel for the prayers, at least at my place. I find it particularly disturbing at the number of people who sit for the Eucharistic prayer. This seems to be an ingrained thing because recently we have included the rubric “Please remain standing” at that point in the service sheet.

    We also hat the passion this morning. The congregation stands for this, but the direction in the service sheet was to kneel for a short while at the point where Jesus dies. About 90% of the congregations at that point sat for about 10 seconds before standing up again.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    I'm just grateful I can finally kneel again after a total knee replacement! I gather a lot of people never manage that again.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Wasn’t it the blessed Kenwritez who wrote a “Choreography for a Liturgical Dance” oh so many years ago?
    In any case, we had some dance as part of a few of our meetings but we’re a slightly charismatic but more evangelical church nowadays.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    That puts me in mind of joint services when "Let us pray" makes RCs stand and others kneel.
    We were invited to sit for the reading of the Passion this morning, though we usually stand for the gospel reading.

    I find increasingly that people sit rather than kneel for the prayers, at least at my place. I find it particularly disturbing at the number of people who sit for the Eucharistic prayer. This seems to be an ingrained thing because recently we have included the rubric “Please remain standing” at that point in the service sheet.

    We also hat the passion this morning. The congregation stands for this, but the direction in the service sheet was to kneel for a short while at the point where Jesus dies. About 90% of the congregations at that point sat for about 10 seconds before standing up again.

    We dont have kneelers in our church so people sit when kneeling is expected. I would prefer the continental practice of standing for the Eucharistic Prayer. It seems more attentive and respectful than sitting. But there you go.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    That puts me in mind of joint services when "Let us pray" makes RCs stand and others kneel.
    We were invited to sit for the reading of the Passion this morning, though we usually stand for the gospel reading.

    I find increasingly that people sit rather than kneel for the prayers, at least at my place. I find it particularly disturbing at the number of people who sit for the Eucharistic prayer. This seems to be an ingrained thing because recently we have included the rubric “Please remain standing” at that point in the service sheet.

    We also hat the passion this morning. The congregation stands for this, but the direction in the service sheet was to kneel for a short while at the point where Jesus dies. About 90% of the congregations at that point sat for about 10 seconds before standing up again.
    I would prefer the continental practice of standing for the Eucharistic Prayer. It seems more attentive and respectful than sitting. But there you go.
    I have gone round and round with this one, and maybe have reached a point where I can make my peace either way. American Presbyterians tend to stand for some prayers and sit for others—exactly which ones are said standing and which are said sitting can vary from congregation to congregation. My longstanding personal preference is to stand for the Great Thanksgiving (for the reasons you state), but in my experience sitting is much more common. When viewed from a perspective of sitting at table, which is historically part of our understanding (and was once explicitly our practice), I’ve come to view sitting for that prayer as theologically defensible.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I am getting to the point where I think it is more appropriate for everyone to sit during the service. Not everyone can stand, sit, stand, sit ad infinitum. Rather than having people stand while allowing other people to sit kind of singles them out. Let's just sit except for maybe the Gospel, and the passing of the peace. Communion too.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I am old enough to remember when it was good manners to stand if a woman entered the room. And as a Brit I would never sit in the presence of my monarch unless invited. These things run deep.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I am getting to the point where I think it is more appropriate for everyone to sit during the service. Not everyone can stand, sit, stand, sit ad infinitum.
    What I’d like to see is an environment where people don’t feel like they have to stand, or keep standing, just because everyone else is. I don’t just mean giving people permission to do what they need to do and are comfortable doing, but finding a way to truly make people feel okay with doing something different.

    In most American Presbyterian churches, there will be a printed bulletin for service that provides whatever the congregation needs (except for what might be in the hymnal) to follow the service. As long as I can remember, parts of the service where the congregation are expected to stand are marked by an asterisk or similar mark. When I was growing up, the bulletin would note at an appropriate place: “* Congregations standing.”

    A few decades ago, that started being replaced in most places with something along the lines of: “* Please stand in body or spirit.”

    Now, the common, and recommended, language is more like: “* invites us to rise in body or spirit.” (This language, particularly saying “rise” rather than “stand,” was suggested by disability advocacy groups in the PC(USA).)

    It’s not perfect, but it is an attempt to be mindful and an attempt to make it okay for people not to stand.

    Rather than having people stand while allowing other people to sit kind of singles them out. Let's just sit except for maybe the Gospel, and the passing of the peace. Communion too.
    While going forward for Communion has become much more common for American Presbyterians, sitting for Communion was long the tradition for us. Again, it reflects an understanding of being seated at the table.

  • The issue of people feeling 'singled out' is an important one.

    I'm not sure how we deal with that and was and means will vary across the various church traditions.

    I'm often struck by how unselfconcious the Eastern Europeans are in our parish. They'll wander around venerating icons or else kneel and bow down or prostrate themselves seemingly at any point in the service irrespective of what other people are doing.

    Orthodox Christians tend not to sit or stand on cue and also tend to wander in and out at different times. No 'please be seated' or 'let us stand or knee to pray ...'

    There are some 'stage directions' of course, such as 'Bow your heads unto the Lord' and 'Wisdom! Let us attend! Let us hear the Holy Gospel. '

    Then there's the 'The doors! The doors!' thing and 'Depart ye catechumens! Let all catechumens depart. Let no catechumens remain,' when none of them actually leave the building.

    We're odd that way.

    These days I tend to perch myself near the choir and to sing along with the chants and hymns (troporia) I know even though few other people do. The only 'congregational' aspect as it were is the recitation of the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, in several languages, and the Orthodox equivalent of the Anglican 'prayer of humble access, 'I believe Lord and I confess that this is is truly Thine own Immaculate Body ...' etc

    I'll join in with the 'Lord have mercy' responses and 'Grant this Oh Lord' and make 'metanias' during the 'Thrice-Holy Hymn' and at other points in the service.

    There are some things I'll pass on. Some of the Romanians in our parish will reach out and touch the priest or deacon's vestments as they process with the Holy Gifts but neither of them like that and I refrain for that reason and because I think it veers towards superstition.

    There seems to be more 'movement' and 'actions' in our parish than I've seen in some Greek parishes I've visited, but I don't know whether that's generally the case.

    Making the sign of the cross whenever the Holy Trinity is mentioned or invoked, making a bow or 'metania' and lighting candles before the holy icons and venerating them feels entirely natural to me now and I can't envisage never having done so.

    I behave in a 'Western' way when visiting non-Orthodox churches though but will make the sign of the cross in an Orthodox fashion.

    I'll sing the hymns and worship songs in other churches but would keep my hands firmly at my sides these days. As might be expected, I now feel more comfortable in traditional style services or more sacramental ones, RC or traditional Anglican.

    I wouldn't object to a Methodist or Baptist style 'non-conformist' service and find those edifying even though they aren't where I'm 'at' as it were - although Methodist services feel closer and more 'Anglican' to some extent.

    I've never been to a Lutheran service but I'd imagine I'd find those conducive and recognise some parallels. I'd have to watch out for the cues as to when to sit, kneel or stand.

    As for other 'physical expressions', I've not seen it done in real life but there seemed to be a bit of a vogue in some charismatic gatherings in recent years for there to be someone producing an art work, a painting of an eagle or something symbolic like that, during the worship.

    I've seen that on the telly and wondered whether it was seen as being 'prophetic' in some way or a visual expression that captured the 'mood' of the meeting as it were.

    Has anyone seen that done and can comment on this particular practice?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    As for other 'physical expressions', I've not seen it done in real life but there seemed to be a bit of a vogue in some charismatic gatherings in recent years for there to be someone producing an art work, a painting of an eagle or something symbolic like that, during the worship.

    I've seen that on the telly and wondered whether it was seen as being 'prophetic' in some way or a visual expression that captured the 'mood' of the meeting as it were.

    Has anyone seen that done and can comment on this particular practice?
    I’ve seen painting during the service done quite a few times. I can’t really say it does anything for me, but I know others who find it quite meaningful. (My wife would count herself in that group. She has done pottery during a service in a similar way.) Sometimes the painting captures what the occasion looks like, while other times it’s more an artistic representation of the mood or flow. Words spoken or sung, images from Scripture read or moods evoked by music might find their way into the painting.

    Two contexts in which I have seen paintings done in a way that I can see might be particularly meaningful are weddings and ordinations of ministers. (Among us, ordination of ministers, as opposed to of elders or deacons, is generally an individual, one-per-service, thing.) When the service is over, the couple or the ordinand have that painting that can be hung in their home or study.


  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited 9:13PM
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I am getting to the point where I think it is more appropriate for everyone to sit during the service. Not everyone can stand, sit, stand, sit ad infinitum.
    What I’d like to see is an environment where people don’t feel like they have to stand, or keep standing, just because everyone else is. I don’t just mean giving people permission to do what they need to do and are comfortable doing, but finding a way to truly make people feel okay with doing something different....
    I definitely agree with @Nick Tamen there and with much of what @Gamma Gamaliel says of the Orthodox way of doing things. There is something more than a bit oppressive about some old fashioned Anglo-Catholics who made a great thing of how everything had to be done 'just right' and the congregation marshalled like a military parade - or, for that matter some CofE and RC booklets that actually mark in where people are expected to bow, kneel, stand up, genuflect or cross themselves - or, presumably, not do so when it is not marked.

    And I certainly would not want to see any return to the days when people either were, or felt they were likely to be, glared at and made to feel very uncomfortable if they 'did it wrong'.


  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host

    As for other 'physical expressions', I've not seen it done in real life but there seemed to be a bit of a vogue in some charismatic gatherings in recent years for there to be someone producing an art work, a painting of an eagle or something symbolic like that, during the worship.

    There would seem to be a parallel with the Orthodox practice around the painting of icons.
Sign In or Register to comment.