http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/ Wed, 27 May 2026 09:16:19 +0000 en Ecclesiantics — Ship of Fools http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6933/how-low-can-you-go Sun, 24 May 2026 16:16:32 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gracious Rebel 6933@/index.php?p=/discussions
They were incredibly friendly and welcoming, it wasn't a bad experience at all, (although it would drive me mad to be somewhere like that every week) it was just unrecognisable as being CofE.

Apart from one set prayer before communion and the Lords Prayer there was no formal Liturgy whatsoever. No lectionary readings (just a section of 2 Corinthians that they are clearly studying systematically), hardly a mention of Pentecost, Vicar was in a open necked shirt, communion was passed around the congregation person to person (consisting of cubed bread and a chalice of wine). (And of course the songs were all worship songs that I didn't know except for 'Ten thousand reasons' ) (Or is it 'Two thousand reasons'....I can't remember!)

How do they get away with it? I'm sure there are rules of minimum C of E standards that should be followed. Has anyone been to an Anglican church that is even lower?

(My own church at home which is URC/Baptist feels more 'Anglican ' than this Anglican church. For example we follow the lectionary, have some set prayers and responses each week and our minister wears a clerical collar!)]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/3574/what-did-you-sing-at-church-today Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:22:52 +0000 Ecclesiantics Nenya 3574@/index.php?p=/discussions
The original thread was started in March 2018 and ran until March 2020 when the first lockdown rendered it redundant. ]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/5292/what-was-the-sermon-about-today Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:35:31 +0000 Ecclesiantics Nenya 5292@/index.php?p=/discussions
If the sermon was based on a Bible passage a link to it would be helpful, using a site such as Bible Gateway .

---

At Our Place yesterday the passage was Romans 1:18-32 and entitled "Sin and the Wrath of God" - we all know God is nice and loving but he has another side to him because we are all depraved, miserable sinners. It was, almost literally, a case of "Oh, look, a Dead Horse... let's not talk about that." Step over said Horse and carry on.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6866/mystery-vestments Tue, 31 Mar 2026 02:35:13 +0000 Ecclesiantics WearyPilgrim 6866@/index.php?p=/discussions
Can someone enlighten me? (I'm a Congregationalist.)

(ETA Fixed title, DT, Passing crew member)]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6847/the-cost-of-maintaining-traditional-music-in-parish-churches Sun, 22 Mar 2026 12:08:50 +0000 Ecclesiantics Puzzler 6847@/index.php?p=/discussions
As a choir we are acutely aware of the small number of people who attend our monthly Evensong. In winter it moved to 4pm, but this actually led to a drop in numbers. Last week only two people attended. This couple go round the local churches attending Evensong in various places, they are not parishioners.

Currently the choir practises fortnightly, for a monthly Evensong, led by our young MD. He now has another post which means he cannot attend if/ when Evensong reverts to 6pm, nor can he attend most Sunday mornings because of other commitments. He is a young musician trying to scratch a viable income, playing, teaching, accompanying etc.

Our small village church has a long tradition of an RSCM robed choir, but we have no children in it and we are all getting older. The church has a variety of traditional and more modern services. The choir robes for Sunday morning Communion services and currently leads the hymns and parts of the Mass of St Thomas, as well as the monthly Evensong. We are not paid, nor do we expect to be. We have a number of regular organists, paid per service.
The choir is appreciated, particularly when we support other churches in our group.

We are all trying to find a way forward in this context, not least considering the approx £10k annual cost of the provision of traditional music.
Is it affordable? Is it money well spent? How long can we continue?

I am sure there must be other parish churches in this situation, so I am interested in your experiences. I am also aware that in many places, once the choir goes, traditional music is next to go. ]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6860/spiritual-actions Fri, 27 Mar 2026 11:10:38 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6860@/index.php?p=/discussions
A reference to 'action songs' on another thread set me thinking about gestures and physical actions in worship.

Everything from kneeling to raising hands, to clapping, swaying, genuflecting, bowing, 'metanias' and prostrations and making the sign of the cross etc.

I'm wanting to steer clear of personal preferences in this thread - I'm afraid 'action songs' would send me fleeing down the road as fast as my legs could carry me ... whereas I'm gradually losing my self-consciousness about making 'metanias', kidding icons, lighting candles and so forth.

It's all down to what we become acclimatised to.

Putting that aside, I'm interested in what physical actions of any kind in any tradition- and not only Christian ones - convey and help each community express.

It could be a sense of collective solidarity, or a demonstration of personal piety (something we need to be wary of) or something that helps convey a sense of the numinous or draw attention to a particularly valued or important part of the worship.

I used to know a Baptist minister who, after making a quip or an aside during his sermon would draw himself up to his full height and pull a face as if he were about to plunge his face into a bucket of cold water before resuming his 'text' as it were.

It was an affectation certainly but an effective one. It demonstrated that we were to take the scriptures seriously.

In a different tradition there might be a procession of the Gospel Book and censing etc.

How can physical gestures help us in worship?

Let's give examples.

Bearing in mind, as Mother Maria of Paris reminds us, that we won't be asked how many prostration we made or services we attended but whether we fed the poor, clothed the naked ...]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6889/a-consubstantial-conundrum Thu, 16 Apr 2026 04:50:42 +0000 Ecclesiantics Foaming Draught 6889@/index.php?p=/discussions I know, I know, Athanasius preferred co-essential, but now there's a real old fogey.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6825/is-outrage-drum-kit-in-the-anglican-shrine-at-walsingham Tue, 10 Mar 2026 13:28:09 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6825@/index.php?p=/discussions
On arrival I noticed a drum kit to one side of the Anglican Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham.

How long has this been going on?

When I last visited 25 years ago I was outraged by the statues, dolls and Mariology. Well, actually I wasn't. I was a bit puzzled by it though.

This time I'm outraged by the presence of a drum kit. Well, I'm not actually but just pretending to be.

My serious question is how common is it to find drum kits in Anglo-Catholic settings these days?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6813/the-octagon Sat, 28 Feb 2026 12:24:57 +0000 Ecclesiantics Forthview 6813@/index.php?p=/discussions What is the baptismal font in your church like ?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6797/sad-tale-of-a-birthday-chasuble Fri, 13 Feb 2026 06:13:49 +0000 Ecclesiantics Foaming Draught 6797@/index.php?p=/discussions My sister-in-law asked my wife to make her an Ordinary Time chasuble for her birthday, this coming Monday, February 16. After careful embroidery featuring requested Queensland nature scenes, my wife couriered the chasuble to her sister, it arrived yesterday.
An Ordinary Time chazzie, eh? This Sunday is Transfiguration, then Lent, then Easter, then Pentecost, then Trinity Sunday. It will be half way through the year before my sister-in-law sports her birthday present.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6746/the-circumcision-and-naming-of-christ Thu, 01 Jan 2026 16:05:32 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6746@/index.php?p=/discussions
In the Orthodox Church it is combined with the commemoration of St Basil The Great. In parishes of the Russian tradition the Liturgy is followed by a 'moleben' or intercessions for the beginning of the civic year. The Orthodox liturgical year starts in September of course.

Wikipedia tells me that all Lutheran churches mark this event and it's included in the Anglican calendar of course, which doesn't necessarily mean it is 'observed' as such. Anglicans I know have never heard of it.

Much could be said about the significance of the theology the commemoration conveys - an emphasis on the humanity of Christ, his condescension, obedience to the Law, the prefiguration of Christian baptism, the naming of Christ with the name given at the Annunciation - and much more besides.

One facet is that it's the first time Christ's blood was shed. I intend to start a new thread on that one and will develop that theme elsewhere in order to prevent this Ecclesiantics thread from becoming Purgatorial.

My question here is how or to what extent this event is commemorated in your church - if indeed it is marked at all.

The RCC appear to have put it to one side to accommodate other dates on their calendar rather than through any theological difference of opinion with those Churches which commemorate the Circumcision in their calendars.

I had intended to attend the Liturgy today and to mark the date that way but slept in I'm afraid after seeing the New Year in next door.

Expect theological pontification from Gamaliel and not perfect piety. 😉]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6669/what-is-the-purpose-of Sun, 23 Nov 2025 22:10:17 +0000 Ecclesiantics WearyPilgrim 6669@/index.php?p=/discussions http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6526/unexpected-grace-in-unexpected-places Wed, 30 Jul 2025 09:43:44 +0000 Ecclesiantics MrsBeaky 6526@/index.php?p=/discussions IME it's the same in real life as many a time I've been on the receiving end of other people's strong dislike of my eclectic taste in music and on occasion I've also witnessed people sneering about other people's choice of beverage in a pub .
This got me thinking.
I grew up in the Catholic tradition (Both Roman and Anglican) and that is where I find myself still today and where I most easily find my connection to God.
However, my life's path has meant I have spent time in the UK, the US and in Africa in churches with a very different practice from my preference.
Despite sometimes finding that not at all easy, I have tried to find a way to worship God in what has often been a very alien setting for me.
Then occasionally something very special has happened when I have encountered a connection with God through something not my style.
One such occurred back in the 80s and early 90s, when my love for the Psalms took me to a chap called Ian White whose music I still listen to today.
You can hear him here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Bc0imAlbngNDol-7-Z1-PmouWJxUvM4

So my question is this. What, if any, experiences do you have of encountering unexpected grace in unexpected worship settings?
]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6674/your-churchs-name Sat, 29 Nov 2025 13:35:01 +0000 Ecclesiantics Stercus Tauri 6674@/index.php?p=/discussions
Does your church have an association or a dedication? Do you mark the day in any way?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6652/hymnary-advice Tue, 11 Nov 2025 23:48:50 +0000 Ecclesiantics Piglet 6652@/index.php?p=/discussions
The subject of hymnbooks came up at our Vestry meeting tonight, and the fact that some of ours are falling to bits.

The Rector raised the possibility of rather than just replacing them, possibly getting a completely new book, and asked me to look into it.

Much as I loathe The Orange Book™ (Complete Anglican Hymns Old and New), I'm not sure what it would be replaced by; I'm not very familiar with Anglican books apart from those used in the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Church of Canada.

It needs to be fairly broad in its scope: she won't swallow anything that hasn't got a chunk of chorus -type stuff in it, but I'd want a decent amount of traditional hymns as well, preferably not too messed about with.

Any advice would be welcome. ]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6551/phones-and-tablets-in-worship-useful-or-a-potential-distraction Sun, 17 Aug 2025 21:55:37 +0000 Ecclesiantics Puzzler 6551@/index.php?p=/discussions This happened in the church I attended today. A discussion afterwards led to some expressions of horror- where would this lead? Sending texts or doing crosswords during the sermon? Checking up on the preacher’s sources?
Useful or potential distraction?
]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6657/baby-baptised-twice-in-c18th Fri, 14 Nov 2025 17:25:23 +0000 Ecclesiantics North East Quine 6657@/index.php?p=/discussions
In 1753 a baby, John, was born after the death of its father, William.

Baby John was baptised, presumably within a week of its birth, as was the custom. The witnesses were the baby's paternal grandfather, George, and someone I think was the baby's paternal great-grandfather. At any rate, he was a relative with the same surname.

Nine days later the baby was re-baptised in the church in the neighbouring parish. This time he was baptised John-William. The paternal grandfather, George, stood as sponsor, and the witnesses were the man I think was great-grandfather and, interestingly, the man who, twelve months later, became the widow's second husband and the baby's step-father.

Why two baptisms? I don't think the inclusion or exclusion of a middle name would have made any difference. Did a baptism, in the absence of the deceased father, require a man to stand in his stead, thus the paternal grandfather standing as sponsor second time round?

If the first baptism was ineffective, why not re-baptise in the same parish? The neighbouring parish church is 5.5 miles away by road now; there may have been a track which was shorter then, but it must have been at least an eight mile round trip with a baby unlikely to have been more than a fortnight old, in early October. ]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6619/using-musical-elements-of-requiems-in-regular-worship Tue, 07 Oct 2025 11:42:04 +0000 Ecclesiantics Heron 6619@/index.php?p=/discussions
Our Place does not have any requiems (part or whole) in the usual repertoire. It seems to me that around All Souls they might be suitably offered in worship.

Are there churches that do this?

Thanks

Heron

(The Sanctus in Rutter's Requiem suggests 'Star Trek' to me....I have wondered if his father - to whom the requiem is dedicated - was a fan)]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6618/video-installation-of-the-presiding-bishop-of-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america Mon, 06 Oct 2025 21:00:20 +0000 Ecclesiantics Nick Tamen 6618@/index.php?p=/discussions @Gramps49 started this past summer on the election of the Rev. Yahiel Curry as Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is closed, or I would have bumped it. When I went to YouTube yesterday to look for something else, this video of the Installation of Bishop Curry as Presiding Bishop from this past Saturday (October 4) was suggested to me on the main page. I thought shipmates who geek out on liturgy, particularly those for whom Lutheran liturgy (at least in its American form) is less familiar, might enjoy watching it, or at least dipping into parts of it.

The bulletin for the service can be found here. Aside from containing the full liturgy and identifying music, it provides a fair bit of helpful explanation for various parts of the service and identifies the many people who took part.

There were a number of highlights, I thought. The way in which Bishop Curry was clearly moved by the “Welcome” he received early in the liturgy was one of them, and another for me was the back-and-forth of the Veni Creator Spiritus (an English translation/adaptation) and “Spirit of the Living God” while representatives of a number of church bodies laid hands on and prayed for the new presiding bishop.* (I particularly enjoyed hearing “Spirit of the Living God” as I have numerous close family connections with the Presbyterian minister who wrote it.)

The church bodies represented by those who laid hands on Bishop Curry were:

      • The Lutheran World Federation
      • The United Church of Christ
      • The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
      • The Moravian Church, Northern Province
      • The Lutheran Church of Christ in Nigeria
      • The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
      • The United Methodist Church
      • The Episcopal Church
      • The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
      • The Anglican Church of Canada
      • The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
      • The Church of Norway

All in all, a joyful service. Well done, ELCA!

---

* As I understand it, bishops in the ELCA are “installed” rather than “ordained” or “consecrated,” as the office of bishop is seen as a particular ministry of the office of pastor. @Gramps49 will, I hope, correct me if I’m wrong about that. The bulletin for the service noted: “During the hymns, leaders from various church bodies lay hands on the presiding bishop-elect, a sign of the church’s unity. As the Bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod, Bishop Curry was installed as a bishop in historic succession in 2019. In this installation, the laying on of hands embodies the whole church’s prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide and sustain this new season of ministry.”


]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6496/no-mention-of-mary-or-the-saints-in-rc-services-is-this-common Mon, 07 Jul 2025 12:51:41 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6496@/index.php?p=/discussions
Dr Rowan Williams was there, which was excellent, and we also had a highly memorable visit to Staffa, Fingal's Cave and the puffins. A pod of dolphins accompanied us part of the way.

Wonderful stuff.

My question though, is as follows ...

I was privileged to attend some morning prayers at the Catholic House of Prayer and, back on the mainland, attended a Vigil Mass in the RC cathedral in Oban.

I was surprised to find no invocations or even references to Mary and the Saints at either of these. As @Alan29 and other Shipmates may remember, I was surprised to find that not all RCs go in for 'that sort of thing'. I was even more surprised though, to find no reference to them in RC morning prayers nor in a Vigil Mass.

I am not saying that is right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent. I am simply puzzled.

How common is this? Perhaps some RC Shipmates can enlighten me.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6505/goats-in-church Sun, 13 Jul 2025 09:12:38 +0000 Ecclesiantics Foaming Draught 6505@/index.php?p=/discussions
"Would the person that brings their goat to church every week, just not? I know you think he's fine with his little blanket and bowl of water, but the whole apartment complex has to listen to it bleet and carry on.
I don't go to the church, the goat is tied to a ute and left outside for however long they're there for."

Interested parties haven't narrowed down the church yet. Not one of my shacks, anyway. But if it were, I'd be minded to put down a mat and invite the goat in. What do other Shippies think?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6552/distractions-particular-to-our-own-traditions Mon, 18 Aug 2025 19:32:41 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6552@/index.php?p=/discussions
Others may or may not wish to follow suit in relation to theirs.

Either way, there is always the caveat that all Christian traditions will contain a mixture of both things that attract and things that distract.

Sometimes the same thing can do both.

Anyhow ... in my case the following list applies:

Chant
This works both ways. Sometimes it's easy to nod off, particularly when sets of prayers are repeated. 'Again and again in peace, let us pray to the Lord ...

In my own personal devotions I find that if I chant the prayers it provides attention and focus. Conversely, if I chant them all the time it can become rote like reciting the two times table. So I vary things.

Intoning the readings
Again, this works both ways. In the Orthodox way of doing things Bible readings tend to be intoned. The idea is that this removes the possibility of histrionics or overly dramatic presentation.

Yes, but it can also make it hard to follow the passage at times. Our Deacon does it well but others less so. I've been told I intone passages well even though I'm not allowed to be in the choir, which is fair enough, I'm not up to scratch.

I tend to read the set passages in advance so I know what's coming.

Those things that are new to me
Sure, this applies anywhere but I'm thinking specifically about service themes and emphases that weren't found in my previous tradition.

So, for instance, when our priest outlines the reasons for accepting extra-biblical traditions such as the Dormition of Our Lady the Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary I find myself automatically going into Kerygmania mode.

I'll accept and observe it, for all my reservations about it as an historical event, but I still wrestle and that can be distracting.

But in wrestling it does focus attention on why these things may or may not be important.

Anyhow ... that's my two-happ'orth for now.

Anyone got any thoughts about similar or parallel reactions and distractions in their particular tradition or context?

As well as things which focus attention in a less troublesome way?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6511/my-heart-was-strangely-warmed-worship-and-the-religious-affections Fri, 18 Jul 2025 13:14:12 +0000 Ecclesiantics Gamma Gamaliel 6511@/index.php?p=/discussions
I'm interested in exploring this in an eirenic and Ecclesiantics way rather than a Purgatorial one, so will watch my step.

My starting point is that however we worship and in whatever 'style' the ideal is to balance 'head and heart' and engage all our faculties - with the end that we both love the Lord our God and our neighbours as ourselves.

It's not about getting ourselves worked up emotionally - or aesthetically - although as creaturely creatures there is scope and room for both emotion and aesthetics within bounds determined by our respective faith communities.

At the same time, I recognise that what might inspire or 'move' some of us won't have the same effect on all of us. I don't want to get into the realm of value judgement here.

On the 'What is this?' Thread @Climacus gave an example of being moved by songs and sermons from a different tradition than their own.

I get that.

Indeed, I would celebrate that. Even if it were a tradition I find unconducive for whatever reason.

All Christian traditions seem to apply some form of checks and balances. Those exist even within those which encourage 'free expression' as it were. Lines are drawn.

My own Tradition has very prescriptive 'rules' on iconography, on the use of the human voice in worship, on posture and gesture etc etc. At the same time there is an aesthetic designed to cultivate particular responses such as awe, reverence and so on.

Other traditions will have their own written or unwritten rubrics.

How are these things applied, managed, encouraged or regulated where you are?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6306/why-is-this-done-said Sun, 09 Mar 2025 21:00:23 +0000 Ecclesiantics [Deleted User] 6306@/index.php?p=/discussions
I went to a Low Latin Mass this morning (Monday) at an old convent chapel (beautiful) beside the (also beautiful) Cathedral. It has been, now I think, about 15 years since I last attended a Latin Mass*, so I have many questions. But 2 will suffice for now.

1. English was used exclusively for the Epistle, the Gospel (not the Last Gospel) and the final Low Mass Prayers (Hail Holy Mother/Mary, I think; a prayer to St Michael...): is this common today?

2. The prayer after Our Father contained a call to Mary, Ss Peter & Paul and St Andrew to pray: why the latter? I don't think he should be ignored, but he seemed an odd inclusion to me (who has very little idea about Patron Saints, so be gentle please...)


* Easter Vigil, so a bit more ceremonial than today's; and long-term shipmates may remember Ingo: it was his baptism (I pray he is doing well; I recall not all were fans, but I found him a delight and quite humble [yes, I know; I think one can be strident in some things yet remain humble...])]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6512/what-is-church-worship-liturgies-and-other-musings Sat, 19 Jul 2025 08:09:25 +0000 Ecclesiantics System 6512@/index.php?p=/discussions What is Messy Church?.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6487/what-is-messy-church Thu, 03 Jul 2025 22:25:28 +0000 Ecclesiantics [Deleted User] 6487@/index.php?p=/discussions
This was a while ago but I was catching up on a thread and forgot to ask. For some reason while on the tram I've remembered!

@North East Quine mentioned "Messy Church" on the Family Mass thread. What is it and why is it messy?]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6491/unique-traditions Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:03:33 +0000 Ecclesiantics [Deleted User] 6491@/index.php?p=/discussions Holy Leaven. It is a tradition that a part of the bread from the Last Supper was saved and has been passed down and a part of this is mixed with other ingredients and used as part of the baking of every bread for the Eucharist.

What traditions are unique to your church? Either denomination or individual church?
]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6474/family-masses-services-and-other-services Wed, 25 Jun 2025 07:40:05 +0000 Ecclesiantics System 6474@/index.php?p=/discussions Ship of Fools: Tewkesbury Abbey, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England.]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6449/smoke-room Mon, 16 Jun 2025 19:16:52 +0000 Ecclesiantics Seoirse 6449@/index.php?p=/discussions
Do you have such a thing in your church? If not, what would you call a small room/cupboard where various candles/candlesticks, monstrances, bells and other large silverware are kept, which contains a safe for the sterling silver vessels and which is plumbed into the ground for disposal of consecrated elements? ]]> http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6445/anointing-the-sick Fri, 13 Jun 2025 16:48:30 +0000 Ecclesiantics Alan29 6445@/index.php?p=/discussions So
Should I have been surprised that a nonconformist minister does something that I always assumed was a bit high up the candle? And is it common outside sacramental/liturgical churches?
I realise I am exposing the narrowness of my knowledge/experience here and I throw myself on shipmates' mercy.]]>