Purgatory — Ship of Fools http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/ Sun, 09 Aug 2026 06:07:24 +0000 en Purgatory — Ship of Fools Should any subjects not be made into a musical? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6989/should-any-subjects-not-be-made-into-a-musical Mon, 27 Jul 2026 07:19:28 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6989@/index.php?p=/discussions The passibility or otherwise of God (aka, Does God have feelings?) http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6996/the-passibility-or-otherwise-of-god-aka-does-god-have-feelings Sat, 01 Aug 2026 00:28:16 +0000 Purgatory Lamb Chopped 6996@/index.php?p=/discussions
I haven't yet come across a convincing proof from the Scripture of the idea that God is impassible in the sense that we cannot "act on him"--that is, affect him, cause him to feel emotions, etc. All the arguments I've heard for this go back to Greek philosophy or to a vague sense that it's somehow beneath God to suffer reactions to anything--whether it's something we do or something that happens in the universe. On that view, it seems to be preferred that God should simulate feelings--should act in such a way that it looks like he's having emotions, but he's not, really.

The issue matters to me, because for really unhealthy reasons that go back to childhood I did in fact always assume that God was observing me/the world and then analyzing me/it to determine the proper emotional response--which he then ladled out, with no true connection between him and me/it/whatever. In other words, that he was disconnected except by intellect, I suppose.

I now think I was wrong. Extremely wrong, in fact. And I'm glad of it. What say you?]]> 'A Hidden God' revealed through the Cross? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/7004/a-hidden-god-revealed-through-the-cross Tue, 04 Aug 2026 12:05:58 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 7004@/index.php?p=/discussions
As if I haven't got all on in reading some Marian material during this Dormition Fast ...

As if I haven't already got enough to do ... ;)

Here's another question.

I very much admired @Gramps49's outline of some Lutheran emphases on one of the threads about God's 'feelings' and 'emotions'. I can't remember which one as they all entwined!

There was much there that resonated with me as an Orthodox Christian and I'm sure much that resonated with believers from other Christian traditions too.

Something that struck me as 'distinctively Lutheran' though, was the point about God being 'hidden' in some way until revealed through the Cross of Christ. I'm not expressing that very well and I'm sure Lutherans would be better equipped with the necessary vocabulary and conceptual framework to expound this point.

I am vaguely aware of Luther's 'theologiae crucis' - that God is supremely and concretely revealed through Christ's sufferings on the Cross and not by abstract or 'human philosophy'.

I wonder whether Lutheran (or Shipmates of other traditions) could elucidate this some more in order to demonstrate how it might accord with - or differ from - understandings in other mainstream Christian traditions such as Roman Catholicism, the Reformed (and small r reformed) traditions and Orthodoxy?

My intention is not combative, nor am I trying to catch anyone out in a Big O Thought-Police kind of way.

I think I can grasp how or why this became a particular emphasis within the Lutheran side of the Protestant Reformation given the rather abstract way late medieval Western theology had developed.

There are those who might accuse the Christian East of being overly philosophical too, no doubt, but obviously we don't see things that way ourselves!

As with the question on the essence/energies distinction, is it 'necessary' and how does it help (or hinder?) us in our understanding of God's self-revelation in Christ?

Was there anything new or innovative in Luther's approach at this point or was he redressing some kind of imbalance?

Over to you my dear sisters and brothers ...

]]> Use of technology in worship - a (hopefully) non-polemical thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6993/use-of-technology-in-worship-a-hopefully-non-polemical-thread Fri, 31 Jul 2026 07:08:23 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6993@/index.php?p=/discussions
It raised questions in my mind about the use of technology in worship and what is or isn't helpful or acceptable in that context - or contexts as it will inevitably vary across different styles and traditions.

The bottom-line of course that it is up to those involved in those contexts to determine how to utilise technology but are there general principles that apply across the board?

Here's an example from within my own circles. Clergy and choirs have recently started reading from tablets, phones and other electronic devices during services and I understand some diktats or 'canons' have been issued or adopted in some quarters proscribing their use on the grounds that it's easier to miss words or phrases on screen.

I can understand that as I've done that recently myself when responding to what other Shipmates have written.

I'm not sure there's a blanket-ban or whether clergy aren't aware of any proscriptions and are ignoring them, but I still see clergy using such devices.

Whatever the case there is a practical reason given rather than, 'This is new, we don't like it, let's ban it.'

There is a rationale there whether we agree with it or not.

We can't avoid subjective responses though. I don't have an issue with the words of hymns or prayers being projected on screens in those churches that go in for that- but must confess to unease at the digital countdown thing and the way 'adverts' for future events keep popping up during the services or notices.

That's a purely aesthetic and 'taste' thing on my part, particularly if the service is taking place in an historic church building. I really don't like seeing obtrusive wires, screens, monitors and drum kits behind perspex screens in settings like that but hey... it's not my decision and nobody's saying that because I don't like them other people shouldn't.

But is there a 'line' and where do we draw it? Are there principles we can apply and what might they include or cover?

Clearly things like accessibility, legibility and auditory considerations should apply.

Are there other criteria and what should they be?]]> Can Count Binface Save us from Farage? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6976/can-count-binface-save-us-from-farage Thu, 09 Jul 2026 10:59:50 +0000 Purgatory sionisais 6976@/index.php?p=/discussions
At the moment only Count Binface, the Rejoin the EU party, the Monster Raving Loonies Party and Reclaim, which is led by the dreadful Laurence Fox have announced that they will stand against Farage. While Farage is a firm favourite at the bookies, he is drifting.
The election is likely to take place on 13th August, a week after the date proposed by Reform, so I think that indicates that they wanted as short a campaign as possible.
The question has to be
1) to what extent can Farage be discredited and
2) how many Clacton voters will then vote against Farage.

There are five weeks until the election: what do you think or recommend?]]> Canada's Political Landscape - 2026 http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6763/canadas-political-landscape-2026 Sun, 04 Jan 2026 23:12:43 +0000 Purgatory Marsupial 6763@/index.php?p=/discussions
Happy New Year everyone. Hope 2026 brings better things for Canada and for all of us. ]]> US midterms http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/7006/us-midterms Wed, 05 Aug 2026 15:53:22 +0000 Purgatory Caissa 7006@/index.php?p=/discussions The Labour Government - 2025 http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6201/the-labour-government-2025 Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:07:43 +0000 Purgatory Louise 6201@/index.php?p=/discussions
One of the reasons I was glad to be in Scotland and not feel I had to vote Labour at the recent election was because their whole 'we will pay for better public services out of economic growth' pitch looked like obvious snake oil.

If you wanted any decent chance of significant economic growth, the realistic thing to do would be to start reversing Brexit. Brexit is such a clear and colossal case of self-harm that any politicians who start from the position that it's fine or beneficial or we should keep it are right out of the gate the political equivalent of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers or the kind of grifter who adopts that colouration as advantageous never minding the harm it does.

Now it looks to me like they've gone full snake-oil on economic growth over AI. There's a current thread on AI itself. Some AI applications do specialist things well but the kind being pushed by the big corporate firms at the moment tend not to be of that sort and have many issues.

But two people I know who are professional IT experts both basically said the same thing to me - I give the pithier version- "Nothing makes me sweat like the three words "Government IT Project". There's a huge history of getting government IT projects disastrously and incredibly expensively wrong with a big side-order of corruption and deals for mates and donors.

Starmer himself has been quoted in the Financial Times saying
I don't think it's going to take five or ten years to double productivity, not for a moment", adding that he was "absolutely confident that the timeframes we're talking about are much, much shorter.

And while he pours money into this mirage, Rachel Reeves is basically going to be telling people who need public help 'Let them eat AI!' as she looks for cuts to benefits and public services, and the magic economic growth fairy promised by Starmer fails to appear.

There have been lots of posts previously tallking about how and where Labour use scapegoating to attack minorities. This is another more toxic form of snake oil and magical thinking: attacking migrants and immigration doesn't improve public services. It's immoral and acts as a distraction and a false solution to real problems when people are encouraged to blame real hardship on imaginary causes.

It also has the well-known harm seen in many other countries that if you accept the far-right framing and analysis behind scapegoating and offer a 'lite' version of that which fails to improve people's lives (because the whole framing was false in the first place), then it positions the far right with their full-fat version to win. You admitted they were right in their analysis of the problem but you just didn't go far enough. And your opponents have the advantage of not just having failed for all to see to improve anything.


The latest You Gov poll is now

LAB: 26% (-9)

RFM: 25% (+10)

CON: 22% (-2)

LDM: 14% (+1)

GRN: 8% (+1)

SNP: 3% (=)

Labour are only 1% ahead of Reform.


I honestly think this economic snake oil and social scapegoating approach is going to be catastrophic. It's the definition of a Right Wing party to me. And I simply don't know how it can be turned round by the next election because the flaws in this way of thinking go so deep.

(In depth discussion of the scapegoating side would belong in Epiphanies unless this thread is placed under dual rules)


]]> Pete Hegseth Revisited http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6862/pete-hegseth-revisited Sat, 28 Mar 2026 18:30:13 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6862@/index.php?p=/discussions
There are reports Pete Hegseth is reducing the number of recognized faith groups in the military from over 200 to just 31. In addition, he is ordering military chaplains to remove their officer rank from their uniforms

https://www.foxnews.com/media/pete-hegseth-slashes-military-faith-codes-from-over-200-31-pentagon-chaplain-corps-overhaul?msockid=3418129a60836057370805b26

This has prompted me to write a letter to the editor of my local paper with a copy to my bishop and congress people. I would hope other Americans will contact their congress people about this as well as religious leaders and send letters to the editor. My letter is below

The recent announcement that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth will reduce the military’s faith group codes from more than 200 to just 31, and require chaplains to remove their visible rank insignia, deserves far more scrutiny than it has received.

Streamlining administrative categories may sound harmless, but collapsing hundreds of distinct religious identities into a few dozen risks erasing the diversity of belief that our service members actually hold. Smaller faith traditions—already under‑represented—stand to lose visibility and access. In a pluralistic military, accuracy is not a luxury; it is a constitutional safeguard.

Even more troubling is the directive that chaplains remove their rank from their uniforms. No other profession in the military—medical officers, JAG officers, cyber officers, logisticians—is being asked to hide its rank. Rank is not a decoration. It communicates authority, responsibility, and accountability. Chaplains are commissioned officers for a reason: they advise commanders, advocate for religious accommodation, and operate within the chain of command. Removing visible rank undermines that role and creates confusion in precisely the environments where clarity saves lives.

Historically, the military tried rank‑less chaplains before 1914. It abandoned the experiment because it diminished chaplains’ effectiveness and created unnecessary ambiguity. We should learn from that history, not repeat it.

Our service members deserve a chaplain corps that is respected, empowered, and able to serve all faiths without political interference. These changes risk weakening an institution that has long protected both religious freedom and military professionalism. They should be reconsidered with full transparency and broad consultation.


(Feel free to add anything RE Pete Hegseth)

]]> Modern Cosmology, Biology and Christianity http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6999/modern-cosmology-biology-and-christianity Sun, 02 Aug 2026 11:32:40 +0000 Purgatory KarlLB 6999@/index.php?p=/discussions
We live in a universe which has developed along naturalistic lines for billions of years and shows no signs of not continuing to do so for billions more.

The universe consists of trillions of stars across millions of galaxies spread across millions of light years of space.

Human beings have existed for a hundred thousand years or so (depending on what you define as human)

People's personalities can be totally changed by chemical and physical changes in their brains.

However, Christian theology developed in a cosmology where the Earth was central and unique. Special. Human beings were the crown of a creation centered on that earth. Sun, moon and stars existed to give light and to show the times and seasons.

And those humans were physical beings embodying immortal souls. Our emotions, wants and desires, our wills and true selves were located in that soul.

So Christian theology developed assuming a cosmology and biology that doesn't match what we now know.

This gives me problems in some specific areas.

Exclusivity - humanity has existed for at least a hundred thousand years, depending on definitions. In that time we must have had more religious beliefs, gods and rituals than you can shake a stick at wax and wane. Is it really one of the major ones that happens to be current that is the true one? It seems a remarkable claim. This worryingly leads to an observation that I'm not the first to make - it's impossible for all religions to be true, but it's possible for them all to be false.

The Eschaton - a supernaturally created world created specifically for us a little before we arrived on it in a small universe centred upon it - it makes perfect sense that the God who created it will usher in a completely new creation on a human timescale.

But our universe has already a future. In billions of years time, our sun will become a red giant either swallowing or scorching the earth. Billions of years later the universe itself either dies a heat death or starts to collapse in a big crunch. Does Christ's return affect Earth only? Or does it herald the sudden supernatural ending of the entire current physical universe?

That's just the cosmological questions.]]> literary dystopias and current politics http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/7010/literary-dystopias-and-current-politics Thu, 06 Aug 2026 18:18:41 +0000 Purgatory stetson 7010@/index.php?p=/discussions @Jane R wrote about George Orwell and 1984...

I don't think this is the future he was expecting: who could have predicted in 1948 that we would sell our souls to Big Brother in exchange for a bunch of cat videos?


Actually, in Oceania, the vast majority of people, ie. the proles, are mostly just bought off with cheap entertainment like lotteries and pornosec literature, with it being stated by the narrator that political propaganda, mostly about the ongoing pseudo-war, kicks in only occasionally in regards to the masses.

So, yeah, "a bunch of cat videos" would seem to fit the bill for the kinda methods envisioned by Orwell for pacifying the majority. I believe in The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism Goldstein, ventriloquizing Orwell, argues that ruling classes have historically been overthrown by the class directly below them, thus explaining why the Inner Party is so preoccupied with propagandizing and terrorizing the Outer Party, but more or less leaves the proles to themselves.

Brave New World, published 18 years before 1984, portrays a society where people are kept in line almost entirely via pleasurable sensory bombardment, with state repression kept to a minimum(and people actually have the option of self-exile to the
savage
territories). Fahrenheit 451, published a few years after 1984, combines the two, though somewhat incongruously, since the population seems sufficiently zonked out on mindless entertainment that they wouldn't wanna read books anyway.


@Nick Tamen wrote...

I don't see anyone but the true believers and politicians worried about their own futures and fortunes staying loyal, at least loyal to Trump.

I agree. Though the difference with Oceania is that the vast majority of those true believers are located among the prole-equivalent population, who, also unlike the Oceanians, have the right to vote, which, in combination with apathetic-but-leaning-R voters, is ultimately what could keep MAGA in power for a longer period. ]]> The 'essence/energies' distinction. Is it necessary? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/7001/the-essence-energies-distinction-is-it-necessary Mon, 03 Aug 2026 11:05:47 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 7001@/index.php?p=/discussions
It started as an internal dispute among the Orthodox in the 14th century and later became a bone of contention between the 'Greek East' and 'Latin West'.

St Gregory Palamas was the main proponent and taught that God was essentially unknowable and unapproachable in his 'essence' - ousia - but able to be apprehended by how he reveals himself through his uncreated (key term) and eternal 'energies' - energeia.

It coincided with controversy over monastic contemplative practices and the claim that hesychasts could sometimes physically see as well as spiritually discern God's 'Uncreated Light' as the disciples did at the Transfiguration.

Opponents of this view, like Barlaam of Calabria who later became an RC bishop, argued that it compromised divine simplicity and that direct physical-spiritual experience of God's 'Uncreated Light' amounted to polytheism or heresy.

It did generate a lot of heat as well as light ... ;)

Some of St Gregory's opponents drew on 'Western' theological concepts such as the Aristotelian actus purus and ideas such as the 'Unmoved Mover' popularised by Aquinas to contest their points. It wasn't as if 'Western' influences didn't impinge on the Christian East.

This led later Orthodox theologians to use the controversy as a kind of 'test-case' to pitch Orthodox experiential theology against 'Western Scholasticism.'

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. The Vatican, I understand, whilst not taking a dogmatic position, has since 'warmed' towards Palamas and hesychasm to some extent. I also understand that in ecumenical dialogue there continue to be questions as to whether the Palamite distinction is incompatible with Western perspectives.

There were, of course, socio-political dimensions, as ever, with civil war among the Byzantines and the usual jockeyings between Popes and Patriarchs etc etc.

I'd not come across the Palamite controversy until I began moving towards Orthodoxy and to some extent still wonder what the fuss was about.

But I pitch the 'distinction' out there for discussion on various grounds including:

- To reinforce the point I've made several times that the 'Eastern' view of divine 'impassibility' does not include the Aristotelian idea of the 'Unmoved Mover'.

- That a 'classic' view of divine 'impassibility' does not preclude an experiential dimension.

- That, given time, both 'East' and 'West' can come to a closer understanding over issues that were formally highly contentious.

That gives me hope for ecumenical dialogue despite recent set-backs.

I recognise that many Shipmates may not be familiar with this 'distinction' and equally that others will know a heck of a lot more about these things than I do.

My question is, can it be helpful in terms of reconciling apparent anomalies and contradictions?

Or does it complicate things further?]]> Spiritual Direction http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6962/spiritual-direction Sat, 27 Jun 2026 07:43:50 +0000 Purgatory Twangist 6962@/index.php?p=/discussions
I was wondering what thoughts and experiences shippies might have? ]]> Trump, the Good Guy http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6839/trump-the-good-guy Tue, 17 Mar 2026 15:51:48 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6839@/index.php?p=/discussions
and

has yet to do so.

I will help him out.

Proposition: Trump has done more good than harm.

Discuss.

(Remember, purgatory is for serious debate).
]]> Are The Reform Party Actually a Threat http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6555/are-the-reform-party-actually-a-threat Thu, 21 Aug 2025 08:47:36 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6555@/index.php?p=/discussions Do they have enough funds to stand enough candidates? After their disaster in local politics are we able to trust them nationally?
I have never seen Farage as charismatic. He is a rich idiot. ]]> Cremated remains. http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6994/cremated-remains Fri, 31 Jul 2026 08:30:53 +0000 Purgatory Puzzler 6994@/index.php?p=/discussions Every sympathy goes to the relatives in this disturbing situation. The details make for gruelling reading. Some bodies remained unburied. Other relatives were given the wrong ashes.

In their statements, relatives have revealed a variety of opinions about these ashes. Some said they spoke to the ashes every day, as if their loved ones are still alive. They now felt their grief was misplaced as it had focussed on the wrong ashes. Some have had ashes made into rings and pendants. One person said they had had ashes mixed with tattoo ink and injected into their skin.

Is there a theological understanding about the nature of cremated remains? ]]> Could this also be a trend? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6985/could-this-also-be-a-trend Fri, 24 Jul 2026 07:19:16 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6985@/index.php?p=/discussions
He does so because he likes the vibe and there aren't people his own age - he's now late 20s - in the more traditional or more liberal churches in his area.

I have to say, I am impressed with the maturity of his approach in apprising his church leadership as to where he stands and their reciprocity in their tolerance of that. They have been and continue to be very welcoming.

I wondered whether this might represent a 'trend', always difficult to quantify.

I'm now wondering whether there's a similar trend - if trend is the right term - at the older end of the spectrum.

I'm increasingly aware of people who were full-on charismatics / evangelicals in their younger days but who are now more liberal in their approach yet haven't 'moved house' as it were. They continue to attend lively evangelical-ish churches rather than more liberal or formally liturgical ones.

There are a few here on the Ship I expect.

I recently heard a fairly senior RC cleric gloat that younger people coming into his Church don't want folk mass and choruses. 'The last thing they want to see is a 70-year old playing guitar!'

Perhaps he ought to go to Castle Donington or Glastonbury.

It strikes me that they may be a number of 60 and 70 year olds still playing or singing along with the choruses even though their underlying theology doesn't 'line up' with the lyrics as it were.

Is my surmise correct?

Are we seeing a generation of ageing charismatic evangelicals who are going through the motions even though their 'heads' are elsewhere theologically?

As a general observation and by no means seeking to belittle any of this, I do get the impression that many charismatic/evangelical fellowships have 'broadened out' and become both more ethnically and demographically diverse.

I can understand how and why the warmth and 'vibe' might attract and retain people who may not necessarily go along with all of the theology.

I'm sure that applies in other settings too but with a different range of factors. ]]> Don't forget we're here forever http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6995/dont-forget-were-here-forever Fri, 31 Jul 2026 12:41:04 +0000 Purgatory Gracious Rebel 6995@/index.php?p=/discussions
The book has a lot to commend it. She is warm sensitive and empathetic to all those she speaks to, but also questioning, critical, analytical etc. She has certainly done her homework....I've been a Christian since my teens, and brought up in a Christian household since birth, plus I've had over 20 years here on the Ship to absorb lots of info about other Christian traditions, and yet I still found I was learning basic facts about the history and practice of Christianity that was new to me.

It's scholarly (with excellent detailed footnotes that are worth reading for themselves!) yet accessible. I think you can tell I'm a fan of this young woman and what she has achieved here.

I fear it won't be taken as seriously as it ought to be by some churches, particularly those of an evangelical flavour, due to the inclusion of certain details about her personal life, that in the eyes of many would probably discredit her as a true 'seeker'.

Has anyone else read it? Do you think it rings true? What do you think the established churches (of any kind) can learn from what she has to say?]]> 'Synergia'. Both/and? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6983/synergia-both-and Sun, 19 Jul 2026 20:51:30 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6983@/index.php?p=/discussions
'Synergia'.

Divine initiative and human response. Cooperation between the human and the divine.

Orthodoxy places a strong emphasis on this. Always acknowledging God's grace. Other Christian traditions don't place so much emphasis on this.

Are we 'monergists' or synergists?

What are the pros and cons of each?

Colours to the mast. I see synergism in the scriptures.

I read the scriptures through the lens of Holy Tradition.]]> British Government Plans For YouTube http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6982/british-government-plans-for-youtube Fri, 17 Jul 2026 11:32:57 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6982@/index.php?p=/discussions https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-for-prominence-of-trusted-news-sources-on-social-media-alongside-measures-to-reform-public-service-media-in-the-uk

The British government have sent out a green paper and a consultation on ensuring “trusted” news sources have priority on Brits home page on YouTube. This is likely to have the likes of the BBC, ITV, etc appearing on home pages and smaller media outlets such as TLDR who do a fantastic job pushed off. It is thought this has come about because the big British media companies and corporations are complaining they don’t get enough space on home pages. Smaller channels already successful on the platform will be forced to close. YouTube has problems with fake and bad news but is this the answer?]]> Ukraine--Winning? Losing? Stalemate? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6991/ukraine-winning-losing-stalemate Mon, 27 Jul 2026 21:00:42 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6991@/index.php?p=/discussions
It seems like it is still hanging in there, but from here it seems like a stalemate. The Russians do not seem to be gaining ground, but neither are the Ukrainians. Russians seem to like to use missiles to cause civilian terror. Ukrainians seem to hit mostly military targets. Ukrainians have developed some very sophisticated drones and missiles. Russians are still relying on imports.

In the US we are being told Russians are getting tired of the war. Ukrainians are seemingly just as weary.

Some Russian drones seem to have wondered into Poland and Romania who shoot them down.

Now there are reports Putin wants to commit 500,000 more men. Where is he going to get them?

I would like to hear what other people are thinking about this war. ]]> Sacrament or Ordinance? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6980/sacrament-or-ordinance Thu, 16 Jul 2026 18:48:16 +0000 Purgatory Barnabas62 6980@/index.php?p=/discussions
@Nick Tamen observed, as did @Gamma Gamaliel , that the low church understanding of baptism and communion was that these were more properly described as ordinances rather than sacraments.

Personally I’d always used the term sacrament, relating as it does to the term used Traditionally, but always recognised that the meanings we associated with the practices were different. But I think there may be more to the differences in the use of the terms than pure labelling.

Anyway I thought it might be worth a separate discussion, recognising that not all Protestants see these sacraments (ordinances) in the same way.

Views encouraged. ]]> Christian minorities in predominantly Muslim countries http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6984/christian-minorities-in-predominantly-muslim-countries Thu, 23 Jul 2026 10:23:14 +0000 Purgatory DeeValleyBantam 6984@/index.php?p=/discussions A quick Google search shows there are active but small congregations scattered around Pakistan, for example, and I am concerned whether displays of Christian nationalism in the West is making life more difficult for them. I am interested to hear whether there is any evidence that increasing criticism of Islam here (U.K.) is contributing to an increased intolerance of Christian minorities overseas. Intuitively I feel that must be the case, but can anyone share any actual examples?]]> Catechesis. Work cut out? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6978/catechesis-work-cut-out Mon, 13 Jul 2026 21:36:04 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6978@/index.php?p=/discussions Church Going on BBC Radio 4.

He's an Anglican cleric, broadcaster and columnist of 'liberal catholic' persuasion.

The series will examine the state of church attendance, decline and pockets of growth in the UK today.

As part of the programme he visited his alma mater of Ripon College, Cuddesdon near Oxford. He was surprised to hear how few full-time students there are now and even more surprised when the Principal told him she'd known students come in who weren't even aware that there was only one God in Christianity.

This was nothing new, she claimed. When she did her own training there was someone who hadn't heard of Moses and someone who thought Martin Luther was black.

I've come across some wild and woolly ideas from enquirers and catechumens in our parish but this took me by surprise, I must admit.

The Principal was quite philosophical. This was how it is. Besides, there are opportunities if people are coming in with no 'baggage.'

Obstacle or opportunity?

Does this reflect the situation where you are and within your church, denomination or tradition?

I know US Shipmates have more experience of adult Sunday school and similar initiatives that are less common here in the UK. But even in the US I imagine that general 'religious knowledge' is not what it was.

Thoughts?]]> Do you enjoy watching sport? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6975/do-you-enjoy-watching-sport Wed, 08 Jul 2026 09:21:33 +0000 Purgatory Boogie 6975@/index.php?p=/discussions Cults influencing US Government. http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6956/cults-influencing-us-government Tue, 23 Jun 2026 15:22:28 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6956@/index.php?p=/discussions
Now there is information coming out that Tulsi Gabbard was under the control of a Hare Krishna type cult headed by a guru named Chris Butler who would literally dictate what she was supposed to say in Congress and, later in the administration as the Director of National Intelligence. In fact, when she suddenly resigned it was largely because the Washington Post was about to come out with and expose on her connections to this group.

Speaker Mike Johnson is also said to be a Christian Nationalist, though of the Conservative Baptist variety. Hegseth’s Christian nationalism is militarized, apocalyptic, and identity‑driven. Johnson’s Christian nationalism is legalistic, covenantal, and theocratic in structure.

Then there is Clarence Thomas who has the view that biblical law is the basis for civil law.

Ron Desantes who relies on theocratic Catholic advisors, and a few Senators and Representatives who profess New Age type doctrines.

All, in all, I could argue maybe one of the reasons why America is so messed up is because of our openness to all these religions. Certainly is interesting that under the least spiritual presidential administration, these cults have a lot of sway in it.]]> What is this I hear about an Alberta separatist movement? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6912/what-is-this-i-hear-about-an-alberta-separatist-movement Tue, 05 May 2026 20:03:50 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6912@/index.php?p=/discussions
I do understand some people in Alberta are upset with the federal government control over natural resources.

I get the impression when about 1/3 of our electricity and 60% of our oil imports come from Canada.

What does this all mean for us down south?]]> What did the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) people do this time? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6977/what-did-the-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-ice-people-do-this-time Sat, 11 Jul 2026 18:17:25 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6977@/index.php?p=/discussions
In Houston.

Short an immigrant construction worker

Claimed he weaponized his vehicle

Witnesses dispute that.

People that were in the vehicle said driver was shot through the passenger window.

Mexico is threatening to take legal action.

As if ICE didn't have enough problems already.

Ban ICE.]]> Does celebrating holidays early matter? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6970/does-celebrating-holidays-early-matter Fri, 03 Jul 2026 15:13:10 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6970@/index.php?p=/discussions Splits and Schisms. How to handle them http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6920/splits-and-schisms-how-to-handle-them Thu, 14 May 2026 06:40:00 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6920@/index.php?p=/discussions
We have a proliferation of often competing churches, denominations and sects.

Some see a virtue in this. Others find it reprehensible. Others lie somewhere in between.

No names, no pack-drill but a family has left our parish to join a group that only has two parishes in the UK and which believes itself to be the only True and proper Orthodox Church. The others are all phoney apparently because - shock horror - we don't use the 'correct' calendar and engage in ecumenical dialogue.

This family started out in an independent highly conservative evangelical Protestant group which, I imagine, had fallen out with other Protestant churches. So a tendency to separate may be in their spiritual DNA.

That said, some people in those groups can be very eirenic.

They have moved from Orthodox parish to Orthodox parish and not stayed long in any of them. I daresay they will move on from this one soon in search of something they believe to be even more authentic and uncompromised.

On the macro-level we have the egregious schism between Moscow and Constantinople.

Within Roman Catholicism we see break-away ultra-traditionalist groups or people claiming to represent the True Catholic faithTM.

Within Protestantism ... well ...

We can't 'stop' people doing this sort of thing and no, it's not a purely Protestant phenomenon. Although our deacon did ask this family how what they were doing differed from the Protestant tendency to hive off to other groups or form your own if you aren't happy for whatever reason with where you are.

I accept that there may often be real and valid reasons for people to 'move on.' I've shifted territory myself, but always reluctantly or after much heart-searching. I don't change affiliation like changing my socks. I recognise that for many people changing ecclesial address is a serious and painful business and not taken lightly.

In statistical terms 'non-canonical' or schismatic groups are a tiny minority within Orthodoxy worldwide. But with Orthodoxy being a minority sport here in the UK even a trickle of people going to more extreme or hyper-dox groups is going to have an impact.

Methodism gradually reabsorbed most of its splinter-groups here in the UK, but that wasn't necessarily a sign of strength as Methodism as a whole is sadly in decline.

Everyone is remaining open and friendly towards this family and they've shown no personal animosity towards anyone in the parish.

They have returned holy water and blessed oil though, presumably because they are no longer deemed 'holy' or are somehow tainted or invalid.

Are this family simply doing at a micro level what Big C Churches and denominations have done at a macro level?

Is it an issue? Should we be concerned or should we simply shrug our shoulders and accept schisms and splits as the status quo?
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