Purgatory — Ship of Fools http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/ Sat, 06 Jun 2026 06:31:39 +0000 en Purgatory — Ship of Fools What of the Faithful but Deceived? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6940/what-of-the-faithful-but-deceived Tue, 02 Jun 2026 16:16:36 +0000 Purgatory Bullfrog 6940@/index.php?p=/discussions I am reading this fantastic blog post about translation issues in the Bible. And this quote jumped out and grabbed me:
This is not a sign of a less faithful translation. It is a sign of a more honest one, which ought to matter to anyone who claims to care about what the text actually says.
The topic is the KJV and its primacy, which for the blogger is a fallacious teaching.

But the topic of the faithfulness of the saints is the question. We are in a communion of the saints, as Christians. "Democracy of the dead," GK Chesterton put it, who has now joined its fell ranks.

People focus so heavily on The Bible itself as a source of truth when the Bible itself also rests upon the faithfulness of its readers, the faithfulness of its authors, the faithfulness of its redactors, and the faithfulness of its translators.

I'm not here to knock the KJV or its adherents, but to bring up the insight into how faithfulness in the text itself still rests upon the faithfulness of Christians themselves. The Bible itself is the testimony of real people. And those people are buried in the catacombs beneath the church as we know it, the bones in the mortar, crushed beneath the foundation stones.

There are cracks in the foundation, how do we repair them? What are we to make of those of us are who are faithful, but deceived? ]]> Splits and Schisms. How to handle them http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6920/splits-and-schisms-how-to-handle-them Thu, 14 May 2026 06:40:00 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6920@/index.php?p=/discussions
We have a proliferation of often competing churches, denominations and sects.

Some see a virtue in this. Others find it reprehensible. Others lie somewhere in between.

No names, no pack-drill but a family has left our parish to join a group that only has two parishes in the UK and which believes itself to be the only True and proper Orthodox Church. The others are all phoney apparently because - shock horror - we don't use the 'correct' calendar and engage in ecumenical dialogue.

This family started out in an independent highly conservative evangelical Protestant group which, I imagine, had fallen out with other Protestant churches. So a tendency to separate may be in their spiritual DNA.

That said, some people in those groups can be very eirenic.

They have moved from Orthodox parish to Orthodox parish and not stayed long in any of them. I daresay they will move on from this one soon in search of something they believe to be even more authentic and uncompromised.

On the macro-level we have the egregious schism between Moscow and Constantinople.

Within Roman Catholicism we see break-away ultra-traditionalist groups or people claiming to represent the True Catholic faithTM.

Within Protestantism ... well ...

We can't 'stop' people doing this sort of thing and no, it's not a purely Protestant phenomenon. Although our deacon did ask this family how what they were doing differed from the Protestant tendency to hive off to other groups or form your own if you aren't happy for whatever reason with where you are.

I accept that there may often be real and valid reasons for people to 'move on.' I've shifted territory myself, but always reluctantly or after much heart-searching. I don't change affiliation like changing my socks. I recognise that for many people changing ecclesial address is a serious and painful business and not taken lightly.

In statistical terms 'non-canonical' or schismatic groups are a tiny minority within Orthodoxy worldwide. But with Orthodoxy being a minority sport here in the UK even a trickle of people going to more extreme or hyper-dox groups is going to have an impact.

Methodism gradually reabsorbed most of its splinter-groups here in the UK, but that wasn't necessarily a sign of strength as Methodism as a whole is sadly in decline.

Everyone is remaining open and friendly towards this family and they've shown no personal animosity towards anyone in the parish.

They have returned holy water and blessed oil though, presumably because they are no longer deemed 'holy' or are somehow tainted or invalid.

Are this family simply doing at a micro level what Big C Churches and denominations have done at a macro level?

Is it an issue? Should we be concerned or should we simply shrug our shoulders and accept schisms and splits as the status quo?
]]> Are we entering a Thucydides Trap? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6922/are-we-entering-a-thucydides-trap Fri, 15 May 2026 01:33:37 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6922@/index.php?p=/discussions
Thucydides postulated when a rising power challenges the established power, there will inevitably be war.

While the US considers itself the established power, looks like Xi thinks we have gone beyond our zenith. The war against Iran shows how weak we have become. So far, we have not opened the Strait of Hormuz.

If we cannot guarantee open commerce there, will we be able to defend Tiawan.

What Xi was looking for was the US would say it opposes Tiawan independence, Our official statement is we do not support the independence of Tiawan.

Trump, seems to have listened to his advisors not to change the wording for now.

But it seems China has agreed to work through back channels to get Iran to reach an agreement with the US in regards to Hormuz.

It seems to me if they are able to achieve that goal, we will then owe them a favor.

Is Tiawan something Trump will give up?]]> What is this I hear about an Alberta separatist movement? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6912/what-is-this-i-hear-about-an-alberta-separatist-movement Tue, 05 May 2026 20:03:50 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6912@/index.php?p=/discussions
I do understand some people in Alberta are upset with the federal government control over natural resources.

I get the impression when about 1/3 of our electricity and 60% of our oil imports come from Canada.

What does this all mean for us down south?]]> Demographic "crisis" a.k.a. best news ever http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6938/demographic-crisis-a-k-a-best-news-ever Sun, 31 May 2026 11:10:26 +0000 Purgatory TurquoiseTastic 6938@/index.php?p=/discussions
I keep reading in publications of all stripes, and hearing from apparently intelligent people of all persuasions, how concerning it is that "fertility rates are falling" and that "not enough babies are being born".

I find this infuriating beyond description, because only a few years ago - I mean probably less than five years ago - many were saying - AND IN MANY CASES THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE AND PUBLICATIONS WERE SAYING - and in some cases are still simultaneously and inconsistently saying - how terrible it was that there was a "population explosion" and that "too many babies were being born" and how it was inevitable that we were all being driven towards a Malthusian catatastrophe.

But glory be! In an amazing turn-up for the books - a miracle beyond hope - the best news possible or perhaps imaginable - it turns out that population will not grow inexorably! And it's not even necessary to enact draconian, freedom-limiting regulation like the "one-child policy" to make it happen! It will happen by itself!!

And guess what is even better! This slowdown in birthrate is most pronounced in rich countries, where people consume disproportionately more resources! So from an environmental, planetary view the population will be reduced in exactly the best places!!

My point is - if I haven't made it clear - is that this is not a disaster, or bad news. Rather it is an astonishing benison that the people of the world should be going down on our knees for and thanking the Lord for an almost unbelievable deliverance.

Of course it will present difficulties of its own. But these are difficulties that we ought to have anticipated and planned for as inevitable difficulties that could only arise as a consequence of incredible success. It's almost as though we believed that exponentially-fuelled disaster was inevitable and so didn't plan for the fact that we might not all starve after all. Like saying "oh no what a disaster that we have defeated Hitler, now we will have to rebuild our peacetime economy rather than being under the Nazi jackboot".

Why oh why oh why are we so determined to see the most negative side of all developments?]]> Canada's Political Landscape - 2026 http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6763/canadas-political-landscape-2026 Sun, 04 Jan 2026 23:12:43 +0000 Purgatory Marsupial 6763@/index.php?p=/discussions
Happy New Year everyone. Hope 2026 brings better things for Canada and for all of us. ]]> Are The Reform Party Actually a Threat http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6555/are-the-reform-party-actually-a-threat Thu, 21 Aug 2025 08:47:36 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6555@/index.php?p=/discussions Do they have enough funds to stand enough candidates? After their disaster in local politics are we able to trust them nationally?
I have never seen Farage as charismatic. He is a rich idiot. ]]> Europe Governments moving away from US social media companies. http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6941/europe-governments-moving-away-from-us-social-media-companies Wed, 03 Jun 2026 17:16:30 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6941@/index.php?p=/discussions The European governments are encouraging their citizens to change as well. Is it even possible to do? Should it be done? Are the US and Chinese companies too big now? ]]> The Quiet Revival http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6857/the-quiet-revival Thu, 26 Mar 2026 12:01:05 +0000 Purgatory Baptist Trainfan 6857@/index.php?p=/discussions
https://tinyurl.com/ys6eed7z]]> Substitutionary atonement revisited http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6910/substitutionary-atonement-revisited Mon, 04 May 2026 00:22:22 +0000 Purgatory Barnabas62 6910@/index.php?p=/discussions
One of the longest threads ever in Purgatory on the old Ship was Christus Victor, which started off as a thread on Christus Victor, but became mainly about the atonement and the 'sins' of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. 69 pages of argument!

Now I really do not want to revisit that. I believe in Substtutionary Atonement (without the P) and mentioned it in the recently closed Epiphanies thread on Hell. And got some challenging opinions. So, greatly daring, I've decided to open this thread to see whether it might start a discussion.

To give it some focus, I said the key scripture was 2 Corinthians 5 v 14-21 and in particular v21.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
. In traditional Protestant thinking, this passage was always described as the Great Exchange. But ideas have moved on.

So, what do you think of Substitutionary Atonement. Not PSA! Forget about the P! Does it make sense today?

]]> The Inevitable Evil that is Capitalism http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6930/the-inevitable-evil-that-is-capitalism Fri, 22 May 2026 17:28:43 +0000 Purgatory sionisais 6930@/index.php?p=/discussions trying to look like a Communist, but this
from, the head of Standard Chartered Bank dubbing workers likely to lose their jobs to AI as “lower value human capital” shows exactly what CEOs in this sector think. He’s shed some crocodile tears of course, but if AI isn’t to be, and also seen to be, a benefit to society, some legislation or civil disobedience may be necessary.]]> Catastrophising http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6931/catastrophising Sat, 23 May 2026 10:02:58 +0000 Purgatory Basketactortale 6931@/index.php?p=/discussions
I have recently been thinking about how scientists and environmentalists and greenies/crunchies/ tend towards making everything into a catastrophy.

Which is to say that there are some things that look bad: there clearly are measurable impacts of climate change, desertification and many other things.

But it is not all bad. Industrial agriculture is not thrashing the planet, logic tells us this would be stupid if true because yields would directly and quickly reduce. There clearly is habitat change and species loss going on in some places and that is obviously concerning, but in the main and on the whole that's not happening.

It is tempting to only notice where bad things happen and extrapolate to think that this is representative of everywhere else, even though there is no real evidence that this is true.

Environmental scientists often seem to exaggerate the importance of their research and then over-generalise about the results because this helps with winning grants, getting publicity or both. Nuance and complications get ironed out. Other aspects such as insights from other sciences, politics and ethics get ignored or minimised.

The problem with this mentality is that if one starts to believe that everything is irretrievably broken then there is no prospect of fixing it therefore by definition any effort is wasted effort. In contrast if you think that generally mostly things are working as they should be but that there are serious problems that can be identified then there is a chance of fixing them.

I think there are other things that follow a similar pattern where there is a tendency to exaggerate and focus on the worst parts of an issue and then suggest that this should be taken as indicative of the whole.]]> Why do we seem to vote against our best interests! http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6913/why-do-we-seem-to-vote-against-our-best-interests Thu, 07 May 2026 06:12:40 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6913@/index.php?p=/discussions Brexit caused no end of problems and made things worse for us. It was well known that that would happen. Why do we seem to vote against our best interest? I am sure shipmates in other countries have a similar experience. ]]> The Labour Government - 2025 http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6201/the-labour-government-2025 Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:07:43 +0000 Purgatory Louise 6201@/index.php?p=/discussions
One of the reasons I was glad to be in Scotland and not feel I had to vote Labour at the recent election was because their whole 'we will pay for better public services out of economic growth' pitch looked like obvious snake oil.

If you wanted any decent chance of significant economic growth, the realistic thing to do would be to start reversing Brexit. Brexit is such a clear and colossal case of self-harm that any politicians who start from the position that it's fine or beneficial or we should keep it are right out of the gate the political equivalent of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers or the kind of grifter who adopts that colouration as advantageous never minding the harm it does.

Now it looks to me like they've gone full snake-oil on economic growth over AI. There's a current thread on AI itself. Some AI applications do specialist things well but the kind being pushed by the big corporate firms at the moment tend not to be of that sort and have many issues.

But two people I know who are professional IT experts both basically said the same thing to me - I give the pithier version- "Nothing makes me sweat like the three words "Government IT Project". There's a huge history of getting government IT projects disastrously and incredibly expensively wrong with a big side-order of corruption and deals for mates and donors.

Starmer himself has been quoted in the Financial Times saying
I don't think it's going to take five or ten years to double productivity, not for a moment", adding that he was "absolutely confident that the timeframes we're talking about are much, much shorter.

And while he pours money into this mirage, Rachel Reeves is basically going to be telling people who need public help 'Let them eat AI!' as she looks for cuts to benefits and public services, and the magic economic growth fairy promised by Starmer fails to appear.

There have been lots of posts previously tallking about how and where Labour use scapegoating to attack minorities. This is another more toxic form of snake oil and magical thinking: attacking migrants and immigration doesn't improve public services. It's immoral and acts as a distraction and a false solution to real problems when people are encouraged to blame real hardship on imaginary causes.

It also has the well-known harm seen in many other countries that if you accept the far-right framing and analysis behind scapegoating and offer a 'lite' version of that which fails to improve people's lives (because the whole framing was false in the first place), then it positions the far right with their full-fat version to win. You admitted they were right in their analysis of the problem but you just didn't go far enough. And your opponents have the advantage of not just having failed for all to see to improve anything.


The latest You Gov poll is now

LAB: 26% (-9)

RFM: 25% (+10)

CON: 22% (-2)

LDM: 14% (+1)

GRN: 8% (+1)

SNP: 3% (=)

Labour are only 1% ahead of Reform.


I honestly think this economic snake oil and social scapegoating approach is going to be catastrophic. It's the definition of a Right Wing party to me. And I simply don't know how it can be turned round by the next election because the flaws in this way of thinking go so deep.

(In depth discussion of the scapegoating side would belong in Epiphanies unless this thread is placed under dual rules)


]]> UK lifelong smoking ban for all born after 2008? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6896/uk-lifelong-smoking-ban-for-all-born-after-2008 Sun, 26 Apr 2026 03:44:06 +0000 Purgatory ChastMastr 6896@/index.php?p=/discussions
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn08jy6w0l5o
Smoking ban for people born after 2008 in the UK agreed

Children aged 17 or younger will face a lifelong ban on buying cigarettes, as the Tobacco and Vapes Bill clears Parliament.

Both the Commons and Lords have settled on a final draft of the "landmark" legislation that aims to stop anyone born after 1 January 2009 from taking up smoking by making it illegal for shops to sell them tobacco, to create a smoke-free generation.

Thoughts?]]> Reform(ed) http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6928/reform-ed Tue, 19 May 2026 00:14:01 +0000 Purgatory Gracious Rebel 6928@/index.php?p=/discussions
Is this a good idea to be applauded? Sad but necessary? Or what?

What other examples can you think of where the name of a religious entity has changed in response to secular politics? Another one that springs to my mind is a Baptist Church in my town that used to be called 'Mount Zion Baptist Church' but is now simply known as xxxxx rd Baptist Church.]]> Illegal Children’s Homes and their costs http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6929/illegal-children-s-homes-and-their-costs Thu, 21 May 2026 16:36:15 +0000 Purgatory sionisais 6929@/index.php?p=/discussions Cost of children In unregistered care homes.
I read this with a mixture of disbelief and anger. How has this happened on anybody’s watch? I know from personal experience (through my grandchildren) that when things get difficult, social workers have to simply find the least bad option but surely it cannot cause such harm to vulnerable children and riches to the owners of some of these homes? A figure of £2 million a year per child is mentioned- go read it.
Further words fail me.
]]> Polanski and the rise of the Green Party in the UK http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6627/polanski-and-the-rise-of-the-green-party-in-the-uk Thu, 16 Oct 2025 10:46:27 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6627@/index.php?p=/discussions The end of liberal democracies? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6908/the-end-of-liberal-democracies Sun, 03 May 2026 10:58:50 +0000 Purgatory WhimsicalChristian 6908@/index.php?p=/discussions
His article here argues his theory quite persuasively imo.

"Economic performance is one of the strongest predictors of satisfaction with democracy. Populism, declining trust in institutions, and the pervasive sense that the game is rigged, are symptoms. The disease is the end of material well-being that made democracy feel worthwhile."

The decline of productivity, low birth rate, ageing population in western liberal democracies is seeing massive amounts of government debt, which is not sustainable in the long term.

To win government, you're not going to be popular introducing austerity measures. So you're automatically stuffed in a democracy.

Is there a solution? Or do we just keep getting into further debt and pass it on to the next generation?

Is AI increasing productivity a solution? I think it might be what the governments are thinking because it is the new arms race.

Your thoughts?
]]> Light in the Enlightenment? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6917/light-in-the-enlightenment Mon, 11 May 2026 07:41:07 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6917@/index.php?p=/discussions @WhimsicalChristian has alluded to the Enlightenment in several posts, generally negatively.

The Enlightenment assumed that people are rational. They aren't.

So what, then, are we to 'assume'?

That people aren't rational or capable of making their own decisions? Therefore we need some form of absolutist pre-Enlightenment style forms of government to keep them in check?

Louis XIV anyone?

Charles I?

The Russian Tsars?

Believe me, I sometimes come across people who might go as far as that...

A suspicion of the Enlightenment is a common trope in some forms of conservative Christianity. It spawned individualism, the French and Russian Revolutions, the rise of Communism, fascism, cynical atheist regimes ... it's led to globalisation, techno-capitalism, the erosion of nation states, traditional notions of the family, of sexualiry etc etc the list goes on ...

The various 'ills' one chooses to focus on under this umbrella will very much depend on the person's ideology. Some will rail at the injustices of global capitalism, others at liberal views on the kind of subjects we address here in Epiphanies.

Some of the more Luddite proponents will do both. Let's all go off grid and live on small holdings...

My own view is, as you'd expect, something of a 'both/and' one tempered however with the view that some of the more reactionary elements can easily veer into extreme nationalism and fascism.

There was an occasion in Uraguay, I think, where 'peace-church' agrarian settlers naively supported a right-wing dictator because they thought his romantic rural-facism accorded with their own values of hard work, simplicity and localism.

The extreme right can hijack a lot of this stuff.

By the same token, I think liberalism and libertarianism can veer out of control unless they are held in check by some sense of 'community' and social cohesion.

My question is, how do we avoid the Scylla of reactionary right-wing ideologies masquerading as returns to 'traditional values' on the one hand, or the Charybdis of atomised individualism and scary AI techno-freakery on the other?

We can't all go and live on communes and grow veg like the Diggers and other communitarian groups.

We need modern medicines, vaccines and so on.

We need to retain the 'light' that was in the Enlightenment alongside, I'd suggest, older forms of wisdom. What that looks like I don't know. Can we learn from pre-industrial tribal societies?

Can we avoid a dewy-eyed romanticism for a mythical past? Or humanise emerging technologies?

Answers on a postcard to ...

]]> People claiming Isaiah 53 "is excluded from Jewish bibles" http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6901/people-claiming-isaiah-53-is-excluded-from-jewish-bibles Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:32:41 +0000 Purgatory TurquoiseTastic 6901@/index.php?p=/discussions @KarlLB posted:
KarlLB wrote: »
Unfortunately our preacher seemed to believe that Isaiah 53 is excluded from some Jewish bibles because it's so obviously about Jesus.

Given this is (a) bollocks and (b) borderline antisemitic it rather obscured whatever his point was.

I remember someone making such a claim when I was at university in the 1990s. Evidently it is still doing the rounds. Where does this idea come from?]]> Australian politics - effective opposition http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6655/australian-politics-effective-opposition Thu, 13 Nov 2025 11:35:03 +0000 Purgatory WhimsicalChristian 6655@/index.php?p=/discussions
For an effective opposition government, the liberals need a leader with the X factor. Dutton didn't have it, Ley doesn't have it. It needs to be someone Australians will think, yes I'd be proud to have them as my prime minister.

Party politics and policies no longer have the loyalties of the past. There's a big swing vote depending on the X factor of the leader.

Littleproud isn't bad as leader of the nationals. Bridget McKenzie isn't bad but both are down the coalition ladder as a subparty and I don't think either of them have the full X factor either.

Who do you think has the X factor to lead the opposition?]]> Guidance and discernment http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6916/guidance-and-discernment Sun, 10 May 2026 15:53:10 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6916@/index.php?p=/discussions trust in various 'authorities' came up. The context was the extent to which we can trust the collective witness of various 'takes' on the atonement as Christians seem to hold very varied views on what it entails.

This then developed into comments about apparent 'divine guidance' which led down blind-alleys or people 'prophesying' that someone would recover from an illness only for the opposite to happen - etc etc.

@Doublethink suggested that one of the reasons why we operate in 'community' is to provide some kind of checks and balances when it comes to 'discernment' - rather than relying on our own individual predilections.

There was then an exchange between @Lamb Chopped and myself on the issue of 'trusting' and 'testing' for ourselves the sayings of Christ as recorded in the Gospels - specifically the 'wisdom' saying but broadening out from those somewhat. My view was that the 'wisdom sayings' were pretty much axiomatic. Most people would agree on the wisdom of those.

We hold our Sunday school in a hired scout-hut very close to our church building. When I was there earlier today I noticed the 'value-statements' and so on posted around the walls and pondered how Sermon on the Mount-ish most of them were.

'We hold these truths to be self-evident ....' as it were.

Anyway, enough preamble. What I'd like to explore here are issues of discernment and indeed 'guidance' - or 'divine guidance' for those of us who believe in the possibility of such a thing.

Like others here, I've had my fingers burned in Christian traditions where people presume to know the mind of the Almighty on often mundane or quotidian issues, yet I remain open to the possibility of God leading or guiding people in certain directions.

I was struck by how many of us felt that @Jengie Jon's 'call' to a more monastic vocation was genuine, for instance.

There's the intriguing line from Acts 15:28 how, 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us':

https://biblehub.com/acts/15-28.htm

How does this process work?

I've been impressed by what my Quaker friends - Friend friends (ha ha!) - tell me about the processes they use to discern new directions or resolve knotty matters. I'm sure there are other examples from other traditions.

It won't all be putative 'prophecies' that turn out to be duds.

I recognise that we 'know in part' and 'prophesy in part' as it were but I'm interested in exploring this area a bit more - with the usual caveats about people only sharing what they feel comfortable with.]]> Local and National Elections in the UK http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6914/local-and-national-elections-in-the-uk Fri, 08 May 2026 06:08:40 +0000 Purgatory Hugal 6914@/index.php?p=/discussions War in the Middle East http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6814/war-in-the-middle-east Sat, 28 Feb 2026 13:33:51 +0000 Purgatory Doublethink 6814@/index.php?p=/discussions
Do we think that Trump will follow through to his stated goal, will he send ground troops ?]]> Christology - two natures, human and divine http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6909/christology-two-natures-human-and-divine Sun, 03 May 2026 18:01:47 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6909@/index.php?p=/discussions
@A Feminine Force raised some interesting issues and I'd like to home in on one of them - the issue of Christology.

She wrote:

'... the idea of Jesus being fully human and fully divine and what does that mean, because sin is kind of a built-in feature of being human and if Jesus can't sin then he can't be human.

I have concluded that Jesus the man and the Christ in him are two separate aspects of the same being.

Jesus the man was perfectly capable of sinning but elected not to on account of being overshadowed by the Christ in him.'

Emphasis mine in bold.

Theologians have debated these things for centuries of course.

AFF asked me to outline the Orthodox position on Christology as she said she'd never heard it. I replied that she probably has but not heard it 'labelled' that way. To all intents and purposes, the RCs, Eastern Orthodox and most mainline Protestants would share the 'Chalcedonian' definition of how this 'works'.

In essence, the 'Chalcedonian' position runs as follows:

- Jesus is one person (hypostasis) in two distinct natures.

- These two natures are united, 'without confusion, without change, without division, without separation.'

- Jesus is perfectly human and perfectly divine, complete in both Godhead and humanity - consubstantial (there's a hymn thread about that in Ecclesiantics!) with the Father and with humanity.

Our minds melt at this point, if not before.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal of course.

Now then, I'm intrigued that AFF has concluded that 'Jesus the man and the Christ in him', are 'two separate aspects of the same being' - as, unless I'm missing something, that sounds rather Chalcedonian the way I've read it.

Where the fun might start is the issue as to whether Jesus the man was 'overshadowed' by 'the Christ in him' or whether his human and divine natures worked in total harmony. Jesus the man 'chose' not to sin not because the 'Christ in him' wrestled him to the ground or prevented him, but because his humanity and divinity were working in harmony.

I came across an intriguing poem by John Burt earlier today, the third in his sequence of Sonnets for Mary of Nazareth. It's in A Century Of Poetry: 100 Poems For Searching The Heart selected and commented on by Dr Rowan Williams (SPCK, London, 2022).

Burt suggests that Mary had to teach Jesus how to be human as any mother teaches a child. Something, Williams tells us, theologians have tentatively suggested.

My brain bursts at this point.

But hey ... let's think this all through ...

So far as we can.

If all this is so, what are the implications for:

- The way we live.

- Our attitude towards sin and 'human perfectability'.

- Our attitude towards suffering and death.

- How we treat other people.

And much more besides?

And please, trained theologians and pastors/ministers here, correct me if I'm not defining things correctly.
]]> General Discussion on Pope Leo http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6710/general-discussion-on-pope-leo Fri, 19 Dec 2025 23:55:53 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6710@/index.php?p=/discussions
I just thought I would place a general thread up on the activities of Pope Leo so we can refer back to it from time to time and add things as they come up.

Like the appointment of Bishop Ronald Hicks as the new Archbishop of New York, replacing Archbishop Dolan. Dolan has long been considered quite conservative. Hicks is a man of a different cloth Hicks has a strong record of supporting the Immigrant communities within the Chicago area. This looks like another poke at Trump. On the other hand Hicks will take on the largest settlement of the sex scandals that have plagued the Roman Church.

Should I mention Hicks grew up 14 blocks from where Leo grew up. Hicks himself said they used to play in the same parks and went to the same swimming pools? Naw, I will not get into that. https://www.ncregister.com/cna/new-new-york-archbishop-ronald-hicks

Leo is going to be around a while. I think we should have a thread dedicated to him]]> McCarthyism all over again http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6906/mccarthyism-all-over-again Thu, 30 Apr 2026 20:26:53 +0000 Purgatory Gramps49 6906@/index.php?p=/discussions
In many ways, Trump is resurrecting shades of McCarthyism. While not accusing his opponents of being communists, he is calling many news outlets of being unpatriotic. He calls many people traitors. He has targeted specific professions and institutions as being Unamerican.

Last week, the Trump administration filed suit against the Southern Poverty Law Center calling them subversive, accusing them of fomenting terrorism, working to cut off financial support, and creating an atmosphere where dissent is framed as disloyalty.

Again, last week, Jimmy Kimmel made a joke about a particular glow he was seeing in Melania. Both Mrs. and Mr, Trump are threatening to sue Kimmel--I guess for poor taste, and Trump's Federal Communications Chair is now calling for the review of the license of certain ABC stations.

And, once again we see the Trump DOJ going after James Comey for posting a picture of some seas shells arranged in a certain way. Even though a federal judge had thrown out the case previously. Trump is, in essence turining a career public servant into a scape goat because of political disagreements.

I wonder who or what Trump will go after next. And I wonder when someone will stand up to him and ask, "Have you no decency?" Do we really have two and a half more years of this craziness?]]> 'Dissent': What does that mean in a 'post-Christendom' context? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6897/dissent-what-does-that-mean-in-a-post-christendom-context Sun, 26 Apr 2026 10:48:59 +0000 Purgatory Gamma Gamaliel 6897@/index.php?p=/discussions @Barnabas62 has posted on the value of the 'dissenting' Christian tradition with its emphasis on personal conscience and, in its 'baptistic' and 'Congregational' forms, the autonomy of the local 'gathered' church.

My question is, how does 'dissent' manifest itself now that:

- 'State' and 'established' churches no longer hold as much sway as they did when the original 'seperatists' emerged in the early 1600s - and had become 'denominations' in the modern sense by the 19th century?

- Churches of whatever stripe are essentially 'voluntarist' in the West.

- Many of the things they were 'dissenting' from have receded into the background.

- Things that were once considered radical are now fairly standard and mainstream.

What does it mean to be a 'dissenter' within contemporary 'Western' Christianity?

What are churches that emerged from the radical Reformation or the 'dissenting' tradition offering these days that differs from what might be found in the older 'historic' Churches other than particular 'styles' or customs that they have developed over the years?

Yes, there will be female clergy of course, whereas those are missing in some historic Churches.

But what else?

What does 'dissent' look like when most mainstream churches tend to share the values of the surrounding society?

What do we need to do to demonstrate our 'dissenting' credentials if we feel we should do so?]]> Improve the World http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6892/improve-the-world Tue, 21 Apr 2026 16:45:24 +0000 Purgatory HarryCH 6892@/index.php?p=/discussions (Maybe this should be in Heaven.)

I have one. Any action by the US congress (vote, resolution,. etc.) should have a single clearly stated purpose: no omnibus bills.]]>