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United Methodist Church lifts 40-year ban on LGBTQ clergy

The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
in Epiphanies
Story here. Seems as if this is an important shift.

Comments

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Wonderful! I'm so happy about that! Even though I don't consider myself Christian any more, I was raised United Methodist, and still have a soft spot for the church.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I suppose there’ll have to be pushback/fallout in the other direction, but this is affirming for many. My parents’ former UMC left the denomination over the sex wars a number of years ago. I suppose they’ll feel vindicated, now.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    It is an important shift, one made possible by the very painful “divorce” that took place over the last few years in the UMC, where congregations were allowed, if specific conditions were met, to leave the UMC. The departure of more conservative congregations and clergy removed much of the opposition to this move.


  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Moving on up to Epiphanies, hold onto your hats.

    Doublethink, Admin
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    For the benefit of folks not in the US (I know the Methodist Church has been shrinking quite a bit in the UK), the United Methodist Church was, prior to the ability of congregations to leave over the last few years (that window is now closed), the second largest Protestant denomination in the US (after the Southern Baptist Convention) and the largest of the mainline Protestant denominations. That’s one reason this is a Big Deal. The UMC was, I think, the last of the mainline churches to make this move.

  • Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
    That's good news. The Methodist church over here (UK) is one of the few that accepts gay clergy. (I have a lesbian friend, married to her partner who was already in such a position when she was ordained....well actually they were only civil partners then as gay marriage wasn't yet legal, but they have since married)
  • Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    In other news my own congregation (Baptist/URC) voted at church meeting last Sunday to proceed with registering the building for same sex marriages. 🙂
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    Thanks @Nick Tamen - yes, the Methodist Church has declined somewhat in the UK, though there are a fair few vigorous Places still in existence!

    There are some in Our Town and environs - I can think of three, though a generation ago there would have been seven or eight - and, of course, some Methodist churches have joined forces with local C of E Places.

    As @Gracious Rebel says, the Methodists here are happy with gay clergy (so are the URCs, I think), but (said he, naughtily :naughty: ) there are lots of other churches with gay clergy...
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Gracious Rebel wrote: »
    That's good news. The Methodist church over here (UK) is one of the few that accepts gay clergy. (I have a lesbian friend, married to her partner who was already in such a position when she was ordained....well actually they were only civil partners then as gay marriage wasn't yet legal, but they have since married)

    2 of the 3 largest denominations in Scotland allow gay (including married) clergy and allow same-sex weddings to be solemnised in their churches.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Arethosemyfeet wrote: »
    Gracious Rebel wrote: »
    That's good news. The Methodist church over here (UK) is one of the few that accepts gay clergy. (I have a lesbian friend, married to her partner who was already in such a position when she was ordained....well actually they were only civil partners then as gay marriage wasn't yet legal, but they have since married)

    2 of the 3 largest denominations in Scotland allow gay (including married) clergy and allow same-sex weddings to be solemnised in their churches.

    So they do. A salutary reminder that matters are progressing faster in different parts of the so-called *United* Kingdom...
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    For the benefit of folks not in the US (I know the Methodist Church has been shrinking quite a bit in the UK), the United Methodist Church was, prior to the ability of congregations to leave over the last few years (that window is now closed), the second largest Protestant denomination in the US (after the Southern Baptist Convention) and the largest of the mainline Protestant denominations. That’s one reason this is a Big Deal. The UMC was, I think, the last of the mainline churches to make this move.

    Not that it really makes a huge difference to the issue in question, but aren't the UMC the denomination of George W. Bush?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    For the benefit of folks not in the US (I know the Methodist Church has been shrinking quite a bit in the UK), the United Methodist Church was, prior to the ability of congregations to leave over the last few years (that window is now closed), the second largest Protestant denomination in the US (after the Southern Baptist Convention) and the largest of the mainline Protestant denominations. That’s one reason this is a Big Deal. The UMC was, I think, the last of the mainline churches to make this move.
    Not that it really makes a huge difference to the issue in question, but aren't the UMC the denomination of George W. Bush?
    Yes. He was raised an Episcopalian, but joined the UMC when he married Laura, who was Methodist.

    The UMC is also the church of Hilary Clinton.


  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    For the benefit of folks not in the US (I know the Methodist Church has been shrinking quite a bit in the UK), the United Methodist Church was, prior to the ability of congregations to leave over the last few years (that window is now closed), the second largest Protestant denomination in the US (after the Southern Baptist Convention) and the largest of the mainline Protestant denominations. That’s one reason this is a Big Deal. The UMC was, I think, the last of the mainline churches to make this move.
    Not that it really makes a huge difference to the issue in question, but aren't the UMC the denomination of George W. Bush?
    Yes. He was raised an Episcopalian, but joined the UMC when he married Laura, who was Methodist.

    The UMC is also the church of Hilary Clinton.


    Thanks.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    I can’t wait for the next Wesley Brothers webcomic about this! (Charlie Baber, who is Methodist and gay (and awesome), has been talking about it recently in his comics.)
  • TwangistTwangist Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I can’t wait for the next Wesley Brothers webcomic about this! (Charlie Baber, who is Methodist and gay (and awesome), has been talking about it recently in his comics.)

    Thanks for the top tip
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    My oldest friendship is with a man who is Methodist, gay and awesome.

    I think I was one of the first people he came out to, which I took as a great compliment
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    My great aunt, 100 and my oldest living relative, is Methodist and has been heard to firmly opine "love is love" with regard to same-sex couples.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I can’t wait for the next Wesley Brothers webcomic about this! (Charlie Baber, who is Methodist and gay (and awesome), has been talking about it recently in his comics.)
    I haven’t heard of the Wesley Brothers webcomic. Must look for it. Thank you!!

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    The wonderful minister who performed my marriage and later baptized my daughter, left the ministry, and came out. This was in 1990. The church lost a fantastic resource then. Now he's dead, sadly. This comes to late for him, but I think it would have made him happy.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    A few years ago, I was supply preaching to a little Lutheran group in a remote town. Eventually, that group decided to affiliate with a Methodist church in the same town and my services were no longer needed. Loved that little community, but it was quite a drive. Well, the Methodist church there decided to disassociate with the United Methodist Church. Now, I hear the Lutheran group withdrew from the association with that Methodist group over the gay issue. The Lutheran group supports gay ministry.

    The bishop is working to find another supply pastor for them. It will not be me, though. There is another retired Lutheran minister closer to them than I am. I think she will be asked.

    But I am proud of that little Lutheran group for standing up for gay ministry.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    The wonderful minister who performed my marriage and later baptized my daughter, left the ministry, and came out. This was in 1990. The church lost a fantastic resource then. Now he's dead, sadly. This comes to late for him, but I think it would have made him happy.

    I think this illustrates the point that the thread title should be "United Methodist Church lifts 40-year ban on openly LGBTQ clergy". LGBTQ clergy have always been around. Now various organized denominations are willing to admit this fact.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    The wonderful minister who performed my marriage and later baptized my daughter, left the ministry, and came out. This was in 1990. The church lost a fantastic resource then. Now he's dead, sadly. This comes to late for him, but I think it would have made him happy.

    I think this illustrates the point that the thread title should be "United Methodist Church lifts 40-year ban on openly LGBTQ clergy". LGBTQ clergy have always been around. Now various organized denominations are willing to admit this fact.

    Indeed.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    In other news, the United Methodists approved full communion with the Episcopalians Story here
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    In other news, the United Methodists approved full communion with the Episcopalians Story here

    That one I’m less thrilled about, but they may be able to sort something out. I’m still not sure what to think about the Lutheran/Episcopalian full communion. But also it isn’t the same topic as this thread, and I don’t want to derail it.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    My church is one of the ones that disaffiliated from the UMC. I was not happy in the least, and my pastor and I (her thoughts match mine) had an hour and a half talk before the church vote. We have several gay couples in our congregation, and they all called Pastor S to let her know that they are staying with us because of the same reasons I'm staying with our church: we actually do the work of Jesus in actual helping of the folks in the neighborhood, supplying food, clothing, and school shoes, backpacks and supplies for the children.

    Pastor S is just a couple of years younger than me. When she retires, I'm out of there and won't be volunteering anymore.

    I'm sickened and saddened at the unloving decision our church made.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    jedijudy wrote: »
    My church is one of the ones that disaffiliated from the UMC. I was not happy in the least, and my pastor and I (her thoughts match mine) had an hour and a half talk before the church vote. We have several gay couples in our congregation, and they all called Pastor S to let her know that they are staying with us because of the same reasons I'm staying with our church: we actually do the work of Jesus in actual helping of the folks in the neighborhood, supplying food, clothing, and school shoes, backpacks and supplies for the children.

    Pastor S is just a couple of years younger than me. When she retires, I'm out of there and won't be volunteering anymore.

    I'm sickened and saddened at the unloving decision our church made.

    My daughter is in a similar situation. Her pastor took another call to another church, and daughter was named to lead the call committee. The congregation was considering a resolution to become open and affirming during the interim. They declined by a very narrow vote. But there were some things that were said during the discussion that were very hurtful. Daughter has remained on the call committee, but as soon as a new pastor is installed, she plans on leaving the congregation for good. Daughter happens to be Lutheran.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    jedijudy wrote: »
    My church is one of the ones that disaffiliated from the UMC. I was not happy in the least, and my pastor and I (her thoughts match mine) had an hour and a half talk before the church vote. We have several gay couples in our congregation, and they all called Pastor S to let her know that they are staying with us because of the same reasons I'm staying with our church: we actually do the work of Jesus in actual helping of the folks in the neighborhood, supplying food, clothing, and school shoes, backpacks and supplies for the children.

    Pastor S is just a couple of years younger than me. When she retires, I'm out of there and won't be volunteering anymore.

    I'm sickened and saddened at the unloving decision our church made.
    I’m so sorry, @jedijudy. It has been a really rough few years for the UMC and for UMC clergy, at least those I’ve talked with.

    I’m curious though—did Pastor S also withdraw from the UMC? I would have thought she’d have been transferred if she remained UMC clergy and the church she was serving disaffiliated. That’s what happened to my cousin; the church she was serving voted to disaffiliate, so she was transferred. It was a really hard experience for her, but she’s happy where she is now.


  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’m so sorry, @jedijudy. It has been a really rough few years for the UMC and for UMC clergy, at least those I’ve talked with.

    I’m curious though—did Pastor S also withdraw from the UMC? I would have thought she’d have been transferred if she remained UMC clergy and the church she was serving disaffiliated. That’s what happened to my cousin; the church she was serving voted to disaffiliate, so she was transferred. It was a really hard experience for her, but she’s happy where she is now.

    I'm so glad your cousin is in a good place, Nick.

    Our church is part of a group of three? four? formerly UM churches. (The number has varied over the years.) The decision to have a vote to leave the UM was probably the choice of the head pastor at the time. Pastor S did not tell me her reason for staying with the church, but I suspect it has to do with our neighborhood mission, as we are in a very poor area of our town. One of the other pastors in the group did decide to stay with the UMC. She was moved along with the other pastors who were reassigned last year. I know it was a hard choice for both of these women.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    The wonderful minister who performed my marriage and later baptized my daughter, left the ministry, and came out. This was in 1990. The church lost a fantastic resource then. Now he's dead, sadly. This comes to late for him, but I think it would have made him happy.

    I think this illustrates the point that the thread title should be "United Methodist Church lifts 40-year ban on openly LGBTQ clergy". LGBTQ clergy have always been around. Now various organized denominations are willing to admit this fact.

    No, I don't think you're right. The UMC banned gay clergy. If you were gay, and hid your sexuality and served as a UMC priest, then you were in breach of the rules. You were banned from serving as a priest, but you were hiding from the rules.

    Your argument is the same as the argument that says that some people drive faster than the speed limit, therefore speed limits don't exist.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Leorning Cniht wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    The wonderful minister who performed my marriage and later baptized my daughter, left the ministry, and came out. This was in 1990. The church lost a fantastic resource then. Now he's dead, sadly. This comes to late for him, but I think it would have made him happy.

    I think this illustrates the point that the thread title should be "United Methodist Church lifts 40-year ban on openly LGBTQ clergy". LGBTQ clergy have always been around. Now various organized denominations are willing to admit this fact.

    No, I don't think you're right. The UMC banned gay clergy. If you were gay, and hid your sexuality and served as a UMC priest, then you were in breach of the rules.
    Actually, neither of you are quite right, I don’t think. (And United Methodists don’t call their clergy “priests.”)

    The pertinent provision of the UMC Book of Discipline said:
    The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.
    A footnote added;
    “Self-avowed practicing homosexual” is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, Board of Ordained Ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual; or is living in a same-sex marriage, domestic partnership or civil union, or is a person who publicly states she or he is a practicing homosexual.
    So gay clergy, openly gay or not, were not banned per se. But gay clergy were expected to be celibate, at least according to church rules. Actual practice, or course, may have been different.

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    These ridiculously worded rules make me want to ask if you could circumvent them by saying you've got so good at being homosexual that you no longer need to practise - you get it right every time.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    I wonder how many straight people would identify as a "practicing heterosexual?"*

    *insert "you'd have to ask my partner whether I'm still practicing" joke here.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Oh yeah, the wording is . . . of its time (if I’m being charitable).

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