Apologies if I am breaking any rules by resurrecting my own thread after many months.
My son today shared with me his latest concern.
Things have moved on for him and his family, in that their younger son W has moved out to a rented house and mostly pays his way, with a bit of help. His job situation is variable but he does bar work and agency work. Older son C aged 24 still lives at home, working at a stables doing a post-graduate apprenticeship.
My son’s job ended and he is currently building up a free-lance career, and at the moment is bringing in little income but has substantial savings and no mortgage. His wife has a good job but is not earning a fortune. Both her parents and I would help out if needed, but there is no need.
That is the background to the latest situation.
Tonight he and his wife have a ‘meeting’ with C about finances. C makes no contribution for living at home, not rent, not food, little in the way of household chores. He runs his car and pays for his phone, but has been heavily subsidised in other ways.
( His long-term girlfriend, on the other hand, pays rent to her parents and buys her own food, as well as running a car. They are trying to save up for a house deposit)
If it were up to my son, C would be paying towards his keep and returning a proportion of money borrowed. Not just because of his personal job situation but at 24 it is time C began to make a contribution and began to realise how much life costs. I agree. However, my son’s wife sides with C, which does not bode well for the meeting.
I've got thoughts on this, yeah, but my overriding one is that you yourself should probably not get involved. It's hard, because of course you have concerns! But you'll preserve all your relationships better, AND you'll not have to cope with having anybody mad at you--because this is basically your son and his wife's issue to mess up (or not), however it turns out.
Plus you get mega points for being a concerned elder who recognizes where their authority stops (which is a rare thing indeed, at least in the community I live in!). And that allows everybody to take refuge in you and pour out their hearts (if they so choose), at which point you can offer carefully worded advice if you like.
Then it is the same for both of them at least, @Caissa.
As for not getting involved, I couldn’t help agreeing with my son that it is high time C made a contribution, if only to learn how to budget and prepare for independence. This was before he told me that his wife has a different view. If I’d known that, I would have been more reluctant to comment / take sides. I’m pretty sure he won’t quote me however.
Meanwhile some additional paid consultancy work has come his way today, though this issue isn’t about the actual money.
I agree (as a non-parent but as an adult who was in C's position) to not get involved!
I am interested to know what work your son and his wife do (as in, is it an office job, something technical like engineering, how physical it is etc) and what the breakdown of household labour is between them. Also, is there any outside help eg a cleaner? The first thing that struck me was that working in a stables is hard, physical work - I would not personally expect someone who does that kind of job to then do chores. If there isn't a cleaner of some kind, maybe C paying for one would be a good compromise.
Is C saving up for his own place? If his parents are financially well-off and there's no mortgage to pay, it's not like your son and daughter in law can't afford to have him at home for free. An apprenticeship pays less than regular work too. Also, as someone who lived at home while working a physically demanding retail job while my parents had office jobs it was very difficult for me that there was no acknowledgement that while office jobs are tiring it's still different compared to a physically demanding job.
I'm sorry, i hadn't understood he'd asked what you thought. Of course that's a very different situation.
FWIW (not much, really) my 24-yo son lives at home rent free. In his case he's planning grad school next year, and is preparing for that rather than working a full-time job. He hasn't got a sib it would make sense to compare to, but in the larger family, there's a kind of expectation that those with a comfortable cushion should help those with less, with the expectation that the favor will be passed along as soon as the recipient is in a place to do so. This doesn't necessarily mean paying back the original giver, just whoever happens to be in need in the multigenerational family (ca 60 people) when that time comes. This has enabled quite a few of us to get through unemployment, down payments, etc because a larger safety net means more aid is available and sometimes several people join in to help. There's also a helluva lot of judgement on anyone who leaves the original giver high and dry in a time of need, esp. if the once- recipient seems to be doing better now.
I also misread and I'm also surprised that a meeting was called at this stage. I think it seems especially premature while C is doing an apprenticeship rather than being in full graduate employment. He won't be on a full wage yet.
I would also add that budgeting isn't so complicated that it's impossible for C to pick up once he's more financially able to be more independent. I don't see any kind of moral imperative for him to have to pay rent or bills to parents who are financially secure and who don't have a mortgage. He has 70+ years left of life, he has plenty of time left to learn how to budget.
Also, if my extended family’s experience is anything to go by, stablework is very poorly paid - as in it would be minimum wage if it wasn’t an apprenticeship - and I think they are allowed to pay apprentices less. He’s probably spending most of his disposable income on the car and the phone. Why should he have a car and a phone you might ask ? You need a phone for most work and accessing most government services, and because unless your public transport is surprisingly good you are going to need a car to get to and from work at the times needed for stables / farms etc in the areas where such businesses are found.
(Also, wasn’t W the one creating havoc a year or so back, whilst C presumably has been plugging away trying to train for a career and not getting thrown off the course.)
Thank you for the various thoughts.
To answer a few points.
Yes, W was the one creating havoc, and things have improved since he left home. The household has a cleaner, so it’s mainly things like emptying the bins when full, unloading the dishwasher etc that C ought to be doing his share of at home. His Dad does most of the cooking and tidying up and Mum does the washing and ironing including for C. Dad provides high protein meals for C to reheat when he comes back off his early and late shifts, in recognition of the physical nature of his job.
Matters have suddenly come to a head
a) partly because of the uncertainty of my son’s job situation..
b) more crucially C has just sold his thoroughbred horse (at a loss, because he is essentially too old to perform at that level) which his parents paid for, plus livery costs, plus trailer - and has kept the money and has no plans to make any repayments. I do not feel at liberty to say how he wants to use the money ( that’s a whole issue I am staying right out of) but it is not going towards saving for a house.
It is all much more complicated than I can explain here, but I absolutely agree that it would have been better if C’s parents had reached agreement before the meeting. I am hoping that some compromises can be reached on all sides.
I can appreciate your son's uncertain job situation not helping, but if the mortgage has been paid off and he has plenty of savings it doesn't sound like he's in dire financial straits. I would understand wanting C to pay his way if C was earning a full wage and if other members of the households were hard-up financially, but it doesn't sound like they are. General house maintenance like emptying bins etc is something everyone should be doing as and when needed, certainly - that's a reasonable expectation. Are the high-protein meals in addition to the meals your son is cooking for the family, or part of the meal prep for everyone? If these are specifically for C then getting C to do his own meal prep for the week would be reasonable imo.
The horse issue....I get why it would cause tension. I do feel that if gifts are given, they have to be given without expectation of repayment (and certainly that is the legal position) - the horse was C's horse, not his parents', and I don't think they should feel like they're owed a cut of the sale especially as the horse was sold at a loss. But at the same time I appreciate how tactless it would seem for C to not make any kind of financial gesture, especially as the proceeds aren't going towards saving for a house. I think a lot of it is about optics rather than actual financial need - but optics do matter too.
Does C do a lot with his parents as a family? Does he join in with activities?
I agree with Nick Tamen - "calling a meeting" knowing in advance that husband and wife do not agree is not a good idea.
Ours have never paid rent or contributed to bills while living at home, but always voluntarily paid for the occasional take-away or treated the family to cake. We felt a symbolic contribution was sufficient, but we would have thought again had we felt that we were being taken for granted.
Ours have done their own laundry, more or less, since their mid-teens.
When I started this discussion I was concerned that my son, who saw himself as the Provider in perpetuity for his family, was struggling with letting go in order to let his children gain the independence they needed.
He had determinedly made his own way in life from the age of 18 and realised he was being over-protective of his adult children.
He has moved forward on this, especially as several circumstances have changed. It is about the bigger picture rather than the details.
The horse was not entirely for C. His brother W had a share, but opted out of both riding and the work and costs that go with owning a horse. As I said, it is complicated.
No update this morning from my son.
To take this away from the specifics above, which I don't want to comment on.
In my experience, in my family, it is clear that a lot of people in their 20s and 30s are struggling to find viable employment and have extended periods of relying on parents. These are examples just from my experience
* University graduate, couldn't get a job even after 30+ interviews. Eventually spent nearly a year doing voluntary work (supported by family, living with parents) then another year in low paid employment where contribution to bills was minimal. Eventually managed to drag themselves into better work, moved out and upwards
* College graduate, didn't do so well at school but pulled things together to go to agricultural college. Did well, looked forward to practical employment. Had lots of interviews across the country which took a lot of energy. Eventually took zero hours contracting work which led to stable employment and left home. Process including college was over 4 years of no earning or contributing.
* University graduate in computing. No work, depression, no clear vision for future. Living with parent now for over 4 years
I'm sure I could think of more stories if I thought about people outside of my immediate circle.
I lived rent free with my parents from graduation to marriage. My dads only condition was that I put the money I’d have been spending on rent into a savings account - which ended up paying the deposit on our marital home.
My mother had some weird sort of ideal in her head which she pushed on all us kids--and grandkids--to the effect that the day you turned eighteen, you should be permanently out of the house. Not realistic with California costs, but she still got what she wanted with her own kids, as I was off to college--and married the summer I graduated--my brother went to live with Dad at twelve, and my sister moved in with a boyfriend. None of us is putting those expectations on our own kids, though. Very unrealistic unless someone has a heap of money. Besides, we like our kids, which she did not...
Comments
My son today shared with me his latest concern.
Things have moved on for him and his family, in that their younger son W has moved out to a rented house and mostly pays his way, with a bit of help. His job situation is variable but he does bar work and agency work. Older son C aged 24 still lives at home, working at a stables doing a post-graduate apprenticeship.
My son’s job ended and he is currently building up a free-lance career, and at the moment is bringing in little income but has substantial savings and no mortgage. His wife has a good job but is not earning a fortune. Both her parents and I would help out if needed, but there is no need.
That is the background to the latest situation.
Tonight he and his wife have a ‘meeting’ with C about finances. C makes no contribution for living at home, not rent, not food, little in the way of household chores. He runs his car and pays for his phone, but has been heavily subsidised in other ways.
( His long-term girlfriend, on the other hand, pays rent to her parents and buys her own food, as well as running a car. They are trying to save up for a house deposit)
If it were up to my son, C would be paying towards his keep and returning a proportion of money borrowed. Not just because of his personal job situation but at 24 it is time C began to make a contribution and began to realise how much life costs. I agree. However, my son’s wife sides with C, which does not bode well for the meeting.
Plus you get mega points for being a concerned elder who recognizes where their authority stops (which is a rare thing indeed, at least in the community I live in!). And that allows everybody to take refuge in you and pour out their hearts (if they so choose), at which point you can offer carefully worded advice if you like.
As for not getting involved, I couldn’t help agreeing with my son that it is high time C made a contribution, if only to learn how to budget and prepare for independence. This was before he told me that his wife has a different view. If I’d known that, I would have been more reluctant to comment / take sides. I’m pretty sure he won’t quote me however.
Meanwhile some additional paid consultancy work has come his way today, though this issue isn’t about the actual money.
I am interested to know what work your son and his wife do (as in, is it an office job, something technical like engineering, how physical it is etc) and what the breakdown of household labour is between them. Also, is there any outside help eg a cleaner? The first thing that struck me was that working in a stables is hard, physical work - I would not personally expect someone who does that kind of job to then do chores. If there isn't a cleaner of some kind, maybe C paying for one would be a good compromise.
Is C saving up for his own place? If his parents are financially well-off and there's no mortgage to pay, it's not like your son and daughter in law can't afford to have him at home for free. An apprenticeship pays less than regular work too. Also, as someone who lived at home while working a physically demanding retail job while my parents had office jobs it was very difficult for me that there was no acknowledgement that while office jobs are tiring it's still different compared to a physically demanding job.
Does C work full-time or part-time?
FWIW (not much, really) my 24-yo son lives at home rent free. In his case he's planning grad school next year, and is preparing for that rather than working a full-time job. He hasn't got a sib it would make sense to compare to, but in the larger family, there's a kind of expectation that those with a comfortable cushion should help those with less, with the expectation that the favor will be passed along as soon as the recipient is in a place to do so. This doesn't necessarily mean paying back the original giver, just whoever happens to be in need in the multigenerational family (ca 60 people) when that time comes. This has enabled quite a few of us to get through unemployment, down payments, etc because a larger safety net means more aid is available and sometimes several people join in to help. There's also a helluva lot of judgement on anyone who leaves the original giver high and dry in a time of need, esp. if the once- recipient seems to be doing better now.
But I’ll admit my thought is that I wouldn’t have “called a meeting” until my wife and I got to the same page first.
(Also, wasn’t W the one creating havoc a year or so back, whilst C presumably has been plugging away trying to train for a career and not getting thrown off the course.)
To answer a few points.
Yes, W was the one creating havoc, and things have improved since he left home. The household has a cleaner, so it’s mainly things like emptying the bins when full, unloading the dishwasher etc that C ought to be doing his share of at home. His Dad does most of the cooking and tidying up and Mum does the washing and ironing including for C. Dad provides high protein meals for C to reheat when he comes back off his early and late shifts, in recognition of the physical nature of his job.
Matters have suddenly come to a head
a) partly because of the uncertainty of my son’s job situation..
b) more crucially C has just sold his thoroughbred horse (at a loss, because he is essentially too old to perform at that level) which his parents paid for, plus livery costs, plus trailer - and has kept the money and has no plans to make any repayments. I do not feel at liberty to say how he wants to use the money ( that’s a whole issue I am staying right out of) but it is not going towards saving for a house.
It is all much more complicated than I can explain here, but I absolutely agree that it would have been better if C’s parents had reached agreement before the meeting. I am hoping that some compromises can be reached on all sides.
The horse issue....I get why it would cause tension. I do feel that if gifts are given, they have to be given without expectation of repayment (and certainly that is the legal position) - the horse was C's horse, not his parents', and I don't think they should feel like they're owed a cut of the sale especially as the horse was sold at a loss. But at the same time I appreciate how tactless it would seem for C to not make any kind of financial gesture, especially as the proceeds aren't going towards saving for a house. I think a lot of it is about optics rather than actual financial need - but optics do matter too.
Does C do a lot with his parents as a family? Does he join in with activities?
Ours have never paid rent or contributed to bills while living at home, but always voluntarily paid for the occasional take-away or treated the family to cake. We felt a symbolic contribution was sufficient, but we would have thought again had we felt that we were being taken for granted.
Ours have done their own laundry, more or less, since their mid-teens.
He had determinedly made his own way in life from the age of 18 and realised he was being over-protective of his adult children.
He has moved forward on this, especially as several circumstances have changed. It is about the bigger picture rather than the details.
The horse was not entirely for C. His brother W had a share, but opted out of both riding and the work and costs that go with owning a horse. As I said, it is complicated.
No update this morning from my son.
In my experience, in my family, it is clear that a lot of people in their 20s and 30s are struggling to find viable employment and have extended periods of relying on parents. These are examples just from my experience
* University graduate, couldn't get a job even after 30+ interviews. Eventually spent nearly a year doing voluntary work (supported by family, living with parents) then another year in low paid employment where contribution to bills was minimal. Eventually managed to drag themselves into better work, moved out and upwards
* College graduate, didn't do so well at school but pulled things together to go to agricultural college. Did well, looked forward to practical employment. Had lots of interviews across the country which took a lot of energy. Eventually took zero hours contracting work which led to stable employment and left home. Process including college was over 4 years of no earning or contributing.
* University graduate in computing. No work, depression, no clear vision for future. Living with parent now for over 4 years
I'm sure I could think of more stories if I thought about people outside of my immediate circle.
Life is tough for these young people.
The meeting was difficult. Son had to back down as it was two against one, but I think relationships are all intact.