Sorry for the double post. I missed the edit window,
In the post you quoted, @Crœsos, I said “what I was disagreeing with was the proposition that ‘destination in the afterlife is based on morality in this life.’” I don’t know how you get from that that I “claimed” that “despicable people don’t make it to heaven.” What I claimed is that anyone in heaven—despicable or not—is there for reasons other than their morality or lack of morality in this life.
Right. The implication there is that being despicable or acting despicably is no bar to making it to heaven.
And yet you say that in that post I claimed that “despicable people don’t make it to heaven.” So which is it? Are you saying I claimed that “despicable people don’t make it to heaven,” or are you saying that I implied that “being despicable or acting despicably is no bar to making it to heaven.”
On the other hand, you agree with @ChastMastr and @Lamb Chopped that there are no despicable people in heaven, or at least that no one behaves despicably, which seems like a distinction without a difference. The resolution to this apparent contradiction is that the despicable simply stop being despicable.
@Lamb Chopped, @ChastMastr and @BroJames all said quite clearly how they resolve what you call an “apparent contradiction.” And what they all said was neither a simple “there are no despicable people in heaven,” nor was it “no one behaves despicably” in heaven.
If you disagree with us, fine. I can deal with that, and I’m sure they can, too. But all you’re doing is attacking what others have said, and you’re doing so by taking bits of what they have said and removing those bits from the larger context of what was said—context that makes clear what was meant.
Perhaps you might tell us what you think the answer to the OP is?
I'm just wondering if someone changed so radically (and apparently by an outside force) can still be considered the same person.
It depends on what exactly you mean by “the same person.” People change their behaviors all the time, sometimes in big ways, sometimes not. And people often describe that change as “I’m not the person I was.” But they are, objectively, biologically, intellectually, the same person.
The Lord said to Moses,"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy"(Ex 33.19) Jesus told his exasperated disciples regarding entry to the kingdom of God, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matt 19.26). God alone is sovereign over these matters.
I'm a long term universalist going back more than 50 years, but in later life, I've come to agree with Metroploitan Kallistos, that it's right and proper to hope and pray for the salvation of all, but it cannot be dogmatically stated. I still think it's blasphemy to say that any individual is damned.
Well, we do have the example of the thief on the cross. He chastised the other thief for ridiculing Jesus, and then addressing Jesus, he asks to be remembered by Jesus in the next life. Jesus replied: "Today, you will be with me in paradise."
Then there is the hymn:
Chief of sinners though I be,
Jesus shed his blood for me,
died that I might live on high,
lives that I might never die.
As the branch is to the vine,
I am his and he is mine!
Comments
This.
I'm a long term universalist going back more than 50 years, but in later life, I've come to agree with Metroploitan Kallistos, that it's right and proper to hope and pray for the salvation of all, but it cannot be dogmatically stated. I still think it's blasphemy to say that any individual is damned.
Then there is the hymn: