Using Musical Elements of Requiems in Regular Worship?
Heron
Shipmate
I've recently found myself listening to a number of requiems - chiefly Faure, Mozart and ....er...Rutter...
Our Place does not have any requiems (part or whole) in the usual repertoire. It seems to me that around All Souls they might be suitably offered in worship.
Are there churches that do this?
Thanks
Heron
(The Sanctus in Rutter's Requiem suggests 'Star Trek' to me....I have wondered if his father - to whom the requiem is dedicated - was a fan)
Our Place does not have any requiems (part or whole) in the usual repertoire. It seems to me that around All Souls they might be suitably offered in worship.
Are there churches that do this?
Thanks
Heron
(The Sanctus in Rutter's Requiem suggests 'Star Trek' to me....I have wondered if his father - to whom the requiem is dedicated - was a fan)
Comments
More often than not, it’s a movement or two rather than whole thing. Many requiems were composed more as or are more suited as concert pieces rather than as true liturgical works; doing the whole thing can overwhelm the actual service, depending on which requiem it is.
I take @Nick Tamen point that requiems are not 'true liturgical works'.
I think that the texts and the music offer something not found elsewhere - but I also feel that way about the 'lost' Mattins canticles.
Perhaps putting our toe in the water with one movement during communion.
Cheers
Heron
My wife was in London and popped into Westminster Abbey for the Eucharist. It was All Souls and they did the Faure.
Yes and no. Something like the Mozart Requiem is more of a concert piece that wouldn’t really work liturgically, but I have heard, and sung, Faure and Durufle (for instance) as the main settings for a Requiem Mass, usually for All Souls or at a funeral.
But I’d class the Mozart, the Berlioz and the Verdi, for example, as concert pieces, and I’d lean toward that with the Lloyd Webber as well. And, while not a traditional requiem, I’d include the Brahms Deutsche Requiem in the concert category as well. (I have heard Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen/“How Lovely Are Thy Dwellings” at funerals.)
This Mass was arranged quickly just a few days after the death of Pope Francis and was celebrated in a cathedral which was filled to capacity
A few months before the cathedral had seen the funeral of a former Auxiliary Bishop Dr Andreas Laun. He had requested for his funeral the complete Mozart Requiem and so all of it was sung including the Dies Irae and the Offertorium. Salzburg cathedral lends itself to such events with the Cardinal Archbishop of Budapest as the preacher and a dozen other bishops present. The former Domkapellmeister came back to oversee the music and the present Domkapellmeisterin was there as Kantorin.
Although the Mass was celebrated in pre Vatican 2 black vestments it was a normal standard Roman Requiem Mass.( It can be seen on youtube Pontifikalrequiem fuer Weihbischof em. Dr Andreas Laun) but it lasts over two hours.
I have known churches which hold non-liturgical performances of requiems (especially Mozart's) on Holy Saturday as a kind of adjunct to the Easter Triduum.
If you're determined for a full ' classical ' requiem then it's astonishing how many composers have written one - Donizetti and von Suppé for example.
This is somewhat like the ' Concerts Spirituels' which took place in Paris in the C18th and revived in C19th during Holy Week and Eastertide. They were started precisely to allow 'grand' religious music to be performed in an extra- liturgical setting. These were intended as devotional exercises like gathering to say the rosary or do the stations of the cross, but with trumpets.
The same problems arise when using any choral settings of the Mass during the RC Mass. Let's all sit and listen while the choir sings the Gloria, for example, and lets wait while they sing the Sanctus or Agnus Dei. It disrupts the natural flow of the liturgy. I tend to avoid such services nowadays, despite having sung in choirs that were involved in them.
Last year for midnight mass we sang Haydn St Nicholas Mass setting, with it's 8 minute sanctus/benedictus. It was probably too long.
Would Byrd 4 S+B at just over 3 minutes also be too long? Perhaps not.
The shape and direction of the liturgy can certainly get lost with 'too much too long' choral music. Whatever that might mean in different places.
@Robertus L I lost my coffee at your idea of 'like the rosary...but with trumpets'
@Forthview ’s post reminds me that some years ago a friend lived in Vienna for a year and sang in the choir of one of their major RC churches. They would Mozart and Haydn masses as a matter of course, with small orchestra. I don’t know if that’s still happening.
It was billed as 'Gedenkgottesdienst '(Memorial Service) but was in fact a 'Totenmesse' (Mass for the dead) celebrated by the then retired Archbishop of Vienna,Cardinal Franz Koenig.
It was a superb piece of music by a superb composer,offered as a tribute to a superb conductor by superb musicians from the Vienna state Opera and the Vienna Philharmonic.
The colour is not so good as one would normally find today but it must have been one of the early Austrian TV transmissions in colour
(youtube Kardinal Koenig Herbert von Karajan Gedenkgottesdienst am 23.07.89)
While all sorts of music is used in Austria to accompany religious rites, it is fairly standard practice on major festivities to have orchestral Masses.
It would however be very rare to have such a Mass as the Requiem for Herbert von Karajan.
Some might suggest that this was part of cramners intention...
To speak very personally I've found listening to the faure on record at home in a semi devotional way comforting in seasons of grief.
Thank you, it is probably not surprising that a similar experience prompted this thread, prompting me to think about corporate use in our churches.
@Heron the ‘rosary with trumpets’ repertoire of the ‘ grand motets’ is definitely worth exploring. The leading exponent was Michel Delalande, admittedly an obscure composer to those not familiar with French baroque sacred music ( better known composers such as Lully, Rameau and Corelli also contributed to the genre, though they’re hardly household names themselves).
Delalande never wrote a Requiem, so when he died that of his friend, and even more obscure composer Charles d’ Helfer was used. If you’re looking for a well written compact version of the requiem, d’Helfer’ s would be ideal. The main difficulty would be finding the sheet music outside France
There seems to me to be a lot of Stockholm syndrome among liturgical musicians.
This is the reason that classically trained musicians tend to gravitate towards churches that use traditional forms of worship. In my lot, they are to be found in Tridentine Mass places. Unfortunately those places are also a hot bed of resistance to everything that happened during and after Vatican 2. And that style of worship has become a flag to rally round.
Because the Tridentine Mass has been so weaponised (especially in the USA) it has been placed under ever greater restrictions. We have one of those chapels in our parish, run by a religious order. They take no part in the life of the local RC churches, they won't even attend clergy meetings. Ecumenism is a red flag for them.
In all this there is tension between musicians and music lovers and liturgists.
I have no problem with hearing religious choral music in the context of a concert (where else can one hear Bach's B minor Mass or Matthew Passion) and they work powerfully for me outside worship. But with the single exception of choral evensong in a cathedral, I find choral music during worship a mighty distraction .... and the less able the choir, the bigger my grumble.
There are clearly some cases where liturgical forms have been used to write concert pieces and/or operas (such as the Verdi Requiem), and some borderline cases, especially those created by changes in liturgical practice, but I couldn't be further from you if I tried, apart from your last clause. It has to be done well. OK, so I'm now going to be hanged for elitism on two counts. Ah well. Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.
But then, at the moment my biggest impediment in worship is the terrible organ playing at my church. This may seem, or be, a massive contradiction, but what I am saying is that music is of itself part of the liturgy and not a distraction from it. When it is done badly, that makes it even more of an issue because it compromises the whole liturgical structure, but I would still say that is not a distraction; it's an impediment. And a serious one at that.
For myself I am happy with all sorts of music when I see that it inspires people to worship God and to love their neighbour. Devotional music ,which most of the congregation would listen to rather than sing themselves, can be a powerful way of lifting up one's mind and thoughts to God.
Equally a religious service which encourages those present to sing is a powerful way of seeing the presence of God within the community.
Both of these types can be ways of (a) helping us to express our love of God and (b) helping us to express our love of neighbour.
Is this the one?
https://test.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Missa_pro_defunctis_(Charles_d%E2%80%99Helfer)
Here's a performance with sheet music https://youtu.be/fZTjYRthi2c?si=q03DO31ymK6RM965
https://test.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Missa_pro_defunctis_(Charles_d%E2%80%99Helfer)
Is that a recommendation or an inflexible ruling? It is commonplace in Anglican cathedrals for choral settings of the Sanctus/Benedictus and Agnus to be sung by choir only (often in Latin). On the occasions I have been to Solemn Mass at the RC cathedral I can't remember coming across a different practice.
Congregational singing includes four (sometimes five) hymns, the Psalm response, and the Gospel Alleluia.
There are occasions when the Mass setting itself is congregational, in which case the relevant texts and music are included in the service booklet.
I take @BroJames' point, though.
Is more a case of best practice in the RCC.
I frequently sing in Latin and Greek, yet I know that (in the UK at least) these can act as very strong class markers. This can be a barrier to the gospel.
I do personally 'journey with' the music'. I think that the cultural and educational capital needed to do this is not insignificant. I learned a little Latin and Greek at O Level in a local comprehensive school in the north of England - at the hands of the school librarian (late 70s).
Church musicians might keep an eye to the wider mission of the church and might reasonably decide that: Macmillan's St Anne's Mass at Midnight Mass might serve the gospel better than Haydn's St Nicholas Mass.
I'm still working this out though..
Cheers
Heron
It's the Missa Carolae by James Whitbourn, and, if you go to YouTube, there are various videos of it.
IMHO, it works rather well, but they wheel out Papa Haydn, or maybe young Mr Mozart, on Christmas morning...
Part (a) was about teaching the Gospel and part (b) was for those already initiated into the Christian mysteries. I think that it is the case that in some Greek liturgies there are still the words 'The doors,the doors, 'at the beginning of the eucharistic liturgy although those who have not yet been initiated are no longer actually shut out.All that remains of this is that those who are not fully initiated are not allowed to receive Communion.
The singing of the Sanctus,Benedictus and Agnus Dei is therefore,at least in theory, for those initiated who ,again in theory, understand what is the meaning of those words and who are able ,at times, to meditate upon those meanings and draw both comfort and a strengthening of Faith from them even if they don't always sing themselves.
At the same time I appreciate that,in real life, all of us are seekers throughout all of the parts of the eucharistic liturgy and that we should all participate as fully as possible.
I expect that most of us would agree.
I'm not sure how to measure that objectively.
This from @Heron got me thinking:
At least from the Protestant (specifically Reformed) perspective I come from, it occurred to me that perhaps questions about choral settings of portions of the liturgy are in a sense akin to the idea of worship in the vernacular. Or, in the words of Article XXIV, “It is a thing plainly repugnant to the word of God and the custom of the primitive Church, to have public prayer in the Church, or to minister the sacraments in a tongue not understanded of the people.”
It’s for those who plan the liturgy for a particular place and occasion to discern what musical forms are within the “vernacular”—or are “understanded”—of the congregations they’re planning for. For some congregations, a Haydn or Schubert setting of, say, the Sanctus will be in their vernacular, and they will be able to, as @Heron says, journey with and pray through the music. For other congregations, that will not be within their vernacular; for them, an elaborate choral setting will seem like a concert-break in the liturgy. Neither group is “right” or “wrong,” much less something like “sophisticated” and “unsophisticated.” The two groups are simply different.
I think that will vary according to the traditions of one's own church and personal preferences within it. There are those who dislike singing and music at one extreme and traditions where the people remain largely silent while the choir and ministers do their stuff at the other extreme.
The RCC has the general Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) that detailswho should be doing what with what and when. It is a counsel of perfection, which for example envisages Gregorian Chant being sung in all churches. That horse has bolted.
A link for the insomniacs.
https://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/GIRM/Documents/GIRM.pdf
@Forthview 'Two distinct parts <of the eucharistic service>' This was news to me - every day is a school day. Composers seem to offer mass settings for both at once, that is assuming that the gloria/kyrie/ credo part of the liturgy of the word.
Well, it's been many years since I went to Midnight Mass at the Cathedral, but IIRC, yes, there was indeed percussion...
I think that the Anglican Church used to use the term 'ante Communion' on days when only the Liturgy of the Word was used.
However the term Liturgy of the Word reminds me that in this liturgy the majority of those present will be reduced to 'mere listening'. At a typical Sunday RC Mass there will be four Readings from Scripture. One of these is a Psalm where the congregation may be invited to sing a recurring verse,otherwise everything is read by one person at a time.
In a typical RC Sunday congregation there will be a number of subgroups
(a) those who listen and understand (irrespective of the language used)
(b) those who listen and try to understand
(c) those who listen and do not understand
(d) those who hear but do not listen
(e) those who neither hear nor understand
You might also have a written text to help follow but there could easily be the same divisions simply changing the word 'listening' to 'reading'
We do not usually say that those who are 'merely listening' are not really taking part in the service as far as the reading and Proclamation of the Word is concerned.
For me you can have exactly the same divisions when there is choral music which involves the congregation in 'listening' rather than 'singing'
Sanctus,Benedictus and even Agnus Dei are equally short scriptural texts which can be 'understanded of the people' even if not everyone is aware of the precise meaning of each word.
At the highest level the RC Church authorities are keen that as many of the faithful as possible are able to follow these texts Kyrie Gloria Credo Sanctus Benedictus and Agnus Dei
in the traditional language as it is part of the common 'vernacular' of the Roman Church (thanks to Nick Tamen),even although they are not used so often these days.