Let there be light

jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
There was a request for a discussion on light motifs.
Between Genesis, John's I am saying, and Revelations seven sun irradiance, there's clearly a lot to talk about.

Comments

  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    So I guess the first thing is if the light from Genesis 1 just a reference to a bit of brightness or something more fundamental?

    And (without going too much into any documentary hypothesis), are there other candidates for the earliest light reference in the bible?

    How does it compare with other creation myths, is it an unusual feature or a standard?

    And then we can see if other uses call back to this.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Why does light appear so early in creation stories

    1) It is a symbol of intelligibility--the world becomes knowable through it.

    2) It is a sign of divine activity--the gods reveal themselves though illumination.

    3) It is a country marker--separating chaos from cosmos.

    4) It is a metaphor for life

    Genesis 1 stands out from the other creation stories in that light is not a god. Note, we have light, and plants before the sun, moon and stars
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    There was a request for a discussion on light motifs.
    Between Genesis, John's I am saying, and Revelations seven sun irradiance, there's clearly a lot to talk about.

    What is the seven sun irradiance? I can't think of what this could be, off hand.
  • I think "light" and "life" get paired a lot. Which is not surprising, when you think how dangerous ordinary darkness can be, just walking around the house.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    jay_emm wrote: »
    There was a request for a discussion on light motifs.
    Between Genesis, John's I am saying, and Revelations seven sun irradiance, there's clearly a lot to talk about.

    What is the seven sun irradiance? I can't think of what this could be, off hand.

    Probably some pop culture having been merged in with my memory of rev 21:23 "the city had no need of the sun...for the Glory of God did lighten it" and similar 22:5.
  • You need to add Psalms, Isaiah and 1 John at least. There are some significant verses elsewhere that would need drawing on as well.

    Paul seems to manage to get it four times in 2 Cor 4:6, which I think is impressive.
  • Cool. Yes, that is impressive.

    It's interesting that 'light' there us linked to 'knowledge' - or clarity I suppose. The knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in a relational sense.

    I'm often struck by John 1:5 where we are told that light has shone in the darkness and the darkness 'did not comprehend it.'

    Some versions have 'understand' of course, which amounts to the same thing.

    It's as if darkness has a kind of negative agency, as if it ought to be able to understand it but can't because of its own darkness as it were.

    Plenty of light and dark imagery in the scriptures of course about 'light' and understanding.

    'The entry of your word brings light, it brings understanding to the simple.'

    It goes beyond that, of course.

    We've got the light of the Transfiguration, and much more besides.

    Thanks for starting this thread and for your contributions so far Kerymaniacs. I look forward to further reflections on light imagery in the scriptures.
  • GarasuGarasu Shipmate
    What is the seven sun irradiance? I can't think of what this could be, off hand.

    It sounds like Isaiah 30:26: "Moreover, the light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, like the light of seven days, on the day when the Lord binds up the injuries of his people, and heals the wounds inflicted by his blow."


  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Garasu wrote: »
    What is the seven sun irradiance? I can't think of what this could be, off hand.

    It sounds like Isaiah 30:26: "Moreover, the light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, like the light of seven days, on the day when the Lord binds up the injuries of his people, and heals the wounds inflicted by his blow."
    I think there's a joke that uses that to 'prove' heaven hotter than mere 'moltan sulphur' hell.
    (Glad it was actually biblical at least)

    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    You need to add Psalms, Isaiah and 1 John at least. There are some significant verses elsewhere that would need drawing on as well.

    Paul seems to manage to get it four times in 2 Cor 4:6, which I think is impressive.
    I was wondering about psalm 119:105 "your word is a lamp to my feet and light for my path", it works perfectly fine as an improvised metaphor,
    But if there is a pattern, say a resonance with creation, or with wisdom 'seeing the light'...

    There's definitely lots of passages that can be brought in.
    I think if someone clever could give structure, it would could easily last Lent.
  • Any takers? I'm not clever enough.
  • It's rather a huge subject. Does anybody have a smaller sub-subject of light they'd like to talk about?
  • Yes, it's immense.

    Perhaps we could narrow things down to consider the subject in relation to Christ?

    'I am the light of the world ...' etc.

    But even then it's a massive topic.

    How can it not be?

    Or consider the scriptural references to 'light' in the context of understanding and illumination?

    Again, pretty big ...

    Any suggestions on how we can break this down into bite-size chunks?

    Perhaps we could pick one particular verse or passage and consider that in detail. @Jengie Jon's citation of 2 Cor 4:6 might be a good place to start as there are several light references in that one verse.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited February 10
    Playing with Gemini got me the following breakdown:

    1. Cosmic & Creative Light

    These passages deal with light as the foundational "stuff" of the universe and the boundary between order and chaos.

    Genesis 1:1–5: The first separation (Day 1).

    Genesis 1:14–19: The delegated lights (Day 4).

    Job 38:12–15 & 19–21: The "dwelling place" of light.

    Psalm 104:1–2: Light as a garment for the Divine.

    2. Ethical & Wisdom Light

    Here, light is a tool for navigation, clarity, and distinguishing right from wrong.

    Psalm 119:105: The lamp and the path.

    Psalm 27:1: Light as salvation and confidence.

    Proverbs 4:18–19: The "shining light" of the righteous vs. deep darkness.

    Ecclesiastes 2:13: The practical advantage of light over folly.

    3. Prophetic & Restorative Light

    These verses look forward to a time when light will be intensified to heal the world or signal God’s intervention.

    Isaiah 9:2: The people walking in darkness seeing a great light.

    Isaiah 30:26: The "Seven Sun" irradiance (moon like sun, sun sevenfold).

    Isaiah 60:1–3 & 19–20: The glory that replaces the sun.

    Micah 7:8: The Lord as light in the midst of a fall.

    4. The Incarnate & Living Light

    The New Testament shift where the metaphor becomes a person.

    John 1:1–14: The Word as the light of men.

    John 8:12: The "I Am" claim to be the Light of the World.

    Matthew 17:1–8: The Transfiguration (light as a physical manifestation of glory).

    2 Corinthians 4:4–6: The light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ.

    1 John 1:5–7: The claim that "God is light" and the requirement to walk in it.

    5. The Eschatological (Final) Light

    The conclusion of the biblical narrative where the "physics" of the world changes.

    Revelation 21:23–25: The city with no need of sun or moon.

    Revelation 22:5: The end of night.

    To which I asked it to add contradictory verses:

    1. The Darkness as God’s Hiding Place

    In these verses, darkness isn't the absence of God, but the very place where God dwells to protect His holiness or to shroud His mystery.

    Psalm 18:11: "He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—the dark rain clouds of the sky."

    1 Kings 8:12: "The Lord has said that he would dwell in a thick cloud [thick darkness]."

    Exodus 20:21: "The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was."

    2. The "Inaccessible" Light (The Danger of Exposure)

    Usually, we want to get closer to light, but these verses suggest that divine light is a barrier that creates a different kind of "blindness."

    1 Timothy 6:16: God "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see."

    Acts 9:3–9: The light of Christ on the road to Damascus doesn't clarify the world for Paul; it physically blinds him for three days.

    3. The Deceptive Light

    The Bible warns that "light" isn't always a guarantee of truth—it can be a costume.

    2 Corinthians 11:14: "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

    Matthew 6:23: "If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" (The idea of "false light" or internal delusion).

    4. The "Darkness" of the Womb and Secret Creation

    Darkness is often seen as a place of chaos, but in the Wisdom literature, it is the necessary, quiet "darkroom" where life is developed.

    Psalm 139:12–15: "Even the darkness is not dark to you... I was woven together in the depths of the earth [the secret/dark place]."

    There should be something to pick out from that, for instance, playing the first one against the last.
  • Indeed.

    Well done!

    Darkness us the absence of light.

    Which makes the last references all the more intriguing and counterintuitive.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Playing with Gemini got me the following breakdown:
    ...
    There should be something to pick out from that, for instance, playing the first one against the last.
    There is, and I'll definitely take inspiration (or encourage someone else to).

    But seeing the use of Gemini I will make some general remarks.

    We don't want AI to be used as an authority.
    We don't want AI used to produce content faster than everyone can read/respond.
    We don't want AI used to avoid reading others posts.
    We really don't want any copyright leakage or other legal issues.
    We don't want to be confused between you and any AI (thanks for attributing it)
    And I'm sure there's more.

    Jay-Emm Kerygmania host
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Shall we stick to focusing on "cosmic light" (more or less as defined above), for this thread.
    Then perhaps on Ash Wednesday someone can do Darkness/Inaccessible light.
    Then wk 3 ethical light
    Then wk4 prophetical light
    Jesus wk 5/6 in teaching
    Jesus wk 6/5 as person
    Eschalotical light

    That gives kind of a Lenten shape to it (or an altar call), while being distinctive. And each part can hopefully stand on it's own.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    I'm often struck by John 1:5 where we are told that light has shone in the darkness and the darkness 'did not comprehend it.'

    Some versions have 'understand' of course, which amounts to the same thing.

    It's as if darkness has a kind of negative agency, as if it ought to be able to understand it but can't because of its own darkness as it were.

    Plenty of light and dark imagery in the scriptures of course about 'light' and understanding

    The koine Greek word translated as "comprehend" here is κατέλαβεν. It is translated in the NRSV as "overcome" - "the darkness did not overcome it." How can the same word have such different meanings?

    English has a similar overlap of meaning in the word "grasp." Grasp can mean understanding something. It can also mean take, seize, overcome.

    The translation to "comprehend" reminds me of the related word "comprehensive", as something all-inclusive or enveloping. The darkness could neither understand the light, nor could it envelope it.

  • Well, given that English has words that mean the exact opposite, e.g. cleave. Words in all languages cover a variety of meanings. Now, just consider the English word "grasp" and the different meanings it can take.

    Actually, it is what I love about knowing a bit of koine Greek; words do not map one-to-one, but to a linguistic territory and as you come to understand those overlapping territories, you begin to get some insight into how the original author's mental maps of the world differed from ours.
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Playing with Gemini got me the following breakdown:
    ...
    There should be something to pick out from that, for instance, playing the first one against the last.
    There is, and I'll definitely take inspiration (or encourage someone else to).

    But seeing the use of Gemini I will make some general remarks.

    We don't want AI to be used as an authority.
    We don't want AI used to produce content faster than everyone can read/respond.
    We don't want AI used to avoid reading others posts.
    We really don't want any copyright leakage or other legal issues.
    We don't want to be confused between you and any AI (thanks for attributing it)
    And I'm sure there's more.

    Jay-Emm Kerygmania host

    Don't worry, that is as far as I will use it. It took long enough to do that; it might have been quicker to type in the texts from a concordance, which is what I previously would have done.
  • "Understand" in English is literally "to stand under", which might not be that far off from the Greek evolution of meaning.
  • As I read through the thread, it occurred to me how much we take light for granted today. A number of years ago I used an illustration on how expensive it would cost to light a room in Jesus day, through today. In Jesus' day a room could be lit with olive oil. Light would be very dim Would have cost many hours of labor. Go to Middle Ages, candles were prominent, tallow in most homes, beeswax in castles. Still very expensive. Time of our Revolutionary War, Whale Oil--again quite expensive room still dim. It was not until the invention of Kerosene in the late 1800s when the cost of lighting became affordable. Most of us grew up with incandescent bulbs 100 watt standard. Would last about a year. Now we use LED lighting. 12w now equals 100w of the 50s. I even did a cost comparison. Suffice it to say the cost of lighting a house in the middle ages would be around 14,000 times more than it costs to light a house today.

    Light had long been the most important commodity in human history. When Jesus tells his followers they will be the light of the world, that was an astounding statement back then, not so much now.
  • Well, except that the most obvious light of the world is the sun, which costs exactly zero.
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    There was a request for a discussion on light motifs.
    Between Genesis, John's I am saying, and Revelations seven sun irradiance, there's clearly a lot to talk about.

    What is the seven sun irradiance? I can't think of what this could be, off hand.

    The first thing that sprang to mind when I read this is the siebenfachen sonnenkreis that is the central "article of dispute" in Mozart's The Magic Flute. It's a talisman of great power that is guarded by Sarastro, withheld from the Queen of the Night, and gifted to Tamino and Pamina at the end of the opera, as the catalyst for their apotheosis.

    AFF
  • Thanks @Leaf. I was aware of the 'understood/overcome' thing in relation to that verse but you have elucidated it further, for which I am grateful.

    @jay_emm your suggested Lenten timetable makes sense to me, despite variations in our calendars.

    I'm not sure I'm clued up enough to get the ball rolling on it though. Any takers?

    Something I would like us to consider is the idea of believers as the 'light of the world.'

    Ephesians 5:8 tells us that the Ephesian believers were now 'light in the Lord.'

    They have become light themselves, as it were.

    Lots to unpack there.

    I take @Gramps49's general point. The Oscar-nominated Hamnet is well worth seeing but there are highly implausible scenes, such as Shakespeare scribbling away late at night like a tortured genius by the light of a guttering candle.

    Yes, people would have lit candles before their 'second sleep' but by and large people stopped doing very much once it got dark to conserve tallow.

    Samuel Pepys is believed to have lost his sight by squinting away by candle light as he wrote his diary.

    That would have been unusual.

    Anyhow, be all that as it may - and yes as @Lamb Chopped observes, the sun was free of charge so people tended to restrict important activity to daylight hours - the point is a valid one. Artificial light was hideously expensive in our forebears' times.

    Is anyone going to get the ball rolling on Jay-Emm's suggested calendar?
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Well, except that the most obvious light of the world is the sun, which costs exactly zero.

    In Northern climates without glass windows need to be small, so during winter the sun's affect is minimalised. I definitely would value good lighting.

    It's going to be an different in a land where rooftop bathing is viable.

    But night is still going to be unsafe.
    Given that, would people have treated "let there be light" as meaning daytime is God's and nighttime is when chaos and bandits do their thing, or see the separation as showing God in control of both.

    We famously have the Sun/Moon coming later than day/night.
    Does this show that this is a different kind of light (should it read lit and unlit).
    How viable is it for an iron age writer (who will see sunrise more than us) to not realise the sun makes the day.
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