This might run parallel to a sense that attitudes about white people are themselves a consequence of white supremacy. I've picked up some of that as a white guy.
Even if some black folks may have had an attitude about me because I'm white, I hate the phrase "reverse racism" - as if it's a separate beast than simple racism. Because it's just racism. These people are reacting to a culture that has injured them, and targeting me as a white guy is a misplaced expression against that culture, which has infected us both.
There are odd little eddies and corners of the world where some members of persecuted populations can become empowered in their own niches and, in their way, become petty tyrants. I've seen some of these, I think. But I also think these eddies are themselves small pieces of a much larger general flow of oppression.
Maybe we need better terminology for these systems, because if you're caught in one of these little eddies of power, it can be uniquely grating to be told that you're not a victim.
Maybe we need better terminology for these systems, because if you're caught in one of these little eddies of power, it can be uniquely grating to be told that you're not a victim.
I don't understand why you say it's "uniquely" grating.
And I'd use the word "prejudice" for situations where the systemized racism of white supremacy is not in play.
Getting back to the original topic of discussion, separate schooling for girls, I lean toward the "separate but equal is inherently unequal" dictum. I'd be afraid that girls education would slide down as boys schools would prosper. Obviously some schools would resist this but in general I think it's healthy for boys and girls to have some experiences of each other as fellow members of a student body, not as sort of exotic "others".
"Uniquely" could apply to any situation, I think. Getting caught in the feedback from which particular members of a dominant set get injured by the culture "their people" promote is a peculiar space to be in.
I think that I'm using it to respect the peculiarity of the situation. It's a tricky dynamic to navigate, in my experience, and takes a lot of practice. It's a lot simpler when you're a straightforward victim or oppressor in these stories, not an in-between or "collateral damage" in someone else's fight for survival. There's probably some personal experience there, which isn't directly germane to this conversation but it's giving me cause for reflection.
Prejudice works, though it's a bit general. Sometimes it feels tepid. Also, in the USA, by my training and experience, there is no such thing as a space where "the systemized racism of white supremacy is not in play." It's always there. That falls under the old rule I picked up that white people have no business saying "I'm not racist." We're all racist. Safest thing is to own it and try to improve.
And I guess this goes back to the question of whether all-girls' schools can reconcile any of this. Girls can be jerks to girls just like guys can. There's something sexist about the assumption that violence and aggression is only the purview of men. I know these questions can sound cuttingly sarcastic, but I'm trying to be earnest: Are we trapped in gender roles and stereotypes or are we not? Which wave of feminism are we in now? I've heard feminists like me go back and forth intellectually on these questions for decades. "Girls can compete with boys." "No, they can't." "Sexualization is empowerment." "No, it isn't."
And adults can work that out for themselves, and we do. Here, you can have a trans woman in a halter top and miniskirt riding the train next to a cis woman in a niqab and it's fine. Everyone minds their own damned business! Wonderful!
But the mischief is in raising children, who (and I may still be - ND - a bit like this) don't quite know who they are and are still learning things like "social norms." And even into their teens, they'll model on what you give them and only later on will start working it out for themselves. Some folks go through their whole lives living according to models, and the ones they choose might be just fine.
State education is a good leveler. Most places in the US, I think, if you're not rich, that's where your kid has to go, and that's where a lot of formation happens. I can remember, as a kid, realizing on a visceral level that my parents couldn't protect me from the bullies. All they could do was give me questionable advice or do something extreme like move from one town to another (once.) Schools are powerful places and that scares people, legitimately.
And setting up a "separate school" for one population always raises the specter of ghettoization, pardon the expression. Any "separate school" may easily slide into "unequal" or be subject to the prejudices or whimsies of "whoever is in charge." Do you trust your elected officials? If so, you're fortunate. Not everyone can. Where I grew up, nope! And I went to one of the better schools in the region, I think, as much as I hate the comparison game.
Anyway, that's my attempt to respond to these small questions and keep this post relatively on topic. Not sure you bargained for that much verbiage, or if I'm stating the obvious.
Maybe we need better terminology for these systems, because if you're caught in one of these little eddies of power, it can be uniquely grating to be told that you're not a victim.
I don't understand why you say it's "uniquely" grating.
And I'd use the word "prejudice" for situations where the systemized racism of white supremacy is not in play.
I don't think prejudice is the right word.
Prejudice is a thing that you have: it's a set of biases and assumptions about a person based on their appearance, their sex, their accent, their address, or whatever other information you think you know about them.
Discrimination is when you do things about your prejudice. If you think that members of group X are unreliable in the privacy of your own heart, you have a problem, but the scope is limited to your attitudes. If you use that prejudice to decide not to hire a member of group X, that's discrimination. Sometimes, discrimination can be through ignorance rather than prejudice. Ignorance should be promptly corrected when someone points it out...
Systemic effects are a third thing, where the discrimination is embedded in the fabric of a society, or a part of it.
And setting up a "separate school" for one population always raises the specter of ghettoization, pardon the expression. Any "separate school" may easily slide into "unequal" or be subject to the prejudices or whimsies of "whoever is in charge."
And there's the rub. We have a lot of history of "separate but equal" not being, but can one school always meet everyone's needs, when those needs are different? Especially when some of those needs are contradictory: you can't have a wide array of courses to choose from, and also have a small school where everyone knows your name.
Comments
Even if some black folks may have had an attitude about me because I'm white, I hate the phrase "reverse racism" - as if it's a separate beast than simple racism. Because it's just racism. These people are reacting to a culture that has injured them, and targeting me as a white guy is a misplaced expression against that culture, which has infected us both.
There are odd little eddies and corners of the world where some members of persecuted populations can become empowered in their own niches and, in their way, become petty tyrants. I've seen some of these, I think. But I also think these eddies are themselves small pieces of a much larger general flow of oppression.
Maybe we need better terminology for these systems, because if you're caught in one of these little eddies of power, it can be uniquely grating to be told that you're not a victim.
I don't understand why you say it's "uniquely" grating.
And I'd use the word "prejudice" for situations where the systemized racism of white supremacy is not in play.
I think that I'm using it to respect the peculiarity of the situation. It's a tricky dynamic to navigate, in my experience, and takes a lot of practice. It's a lot simpler when you're a straightforward victim or oppressor in these stories, not an in-between or "collateral damage" in someone else's fight for survival. There's probably some personal experience there, which isn't directly germane to this conversation but it's giving me cause for reflection.
Prejudice works, though it's a bit general. Sometimes it feels tepid. Also, in the USA, by my training and experience, there is no such thing as a space where "the systemized racism of white supremacy is not in play." It's always there. That falls under the old rule I picked up that white people have no business saying "I'm not racist." We're all racist. Safest thing is to own it and try to improve.
And I guess this goes back to the question of whether all-girls' schools can reconcile any of this. Girls can be jerks to girls just like guys can. There's something sexist about the assumption that violence and aggression is only the purview of men. I know these questions can sound cuttingly sarcastic, but I'm trying to be earnest: Are we trapped in gender roles and stereotypes or are we not? Which wave of feminism are we in now? I've heard feminists like me go back and forth intellectually on these questions for decades. "Girls can compete with boys." "No, they can't." "Sexualization is empowerment." "No, it isn't."
And adults can work that out for themselves, and we do. Here, you can have a trans woman in a halter top and miniskirt riding the train next to a cis woman in a niqab and it's fine. Everyone minds their own damned business! Wonderful!
But the mischief is in raising children, who (and I may still be - ND - a bit like this) don't quite know who they are and are still learning things like "social norms." And even into their teens, they'll model on what you give them and only later on will start working it out for themselves. Some folks go through their whole lives living according to models, and the ones they choose might be just fine.
State education is a good leveler. Most places in the US, I think, if you're not rich, that's where your kid has to go, and that's where a lot of formation happens. I can remember, as a kid, realizing on a visceral level that my parents couldn't protect me from the bullies. All they could do was give me questionable advice or do something extreme like move from one town to another (once.) Schools are powerful places and that scares people, legitimately.
And setting up a "separate school" for one population always raises the specter of ghettoization, pardon the expression. Any "separate school" may easily slide into "unequal" or be subject to the prejudices or whimsies of "whoever is in charge." Do you trust your elected officials? If so, you're fortunate. Not everyone can. Where I grew up, nope! And I went to one of the better schools in the region, I think, as much as I hate the comparison game.
Anyway, that's my attempt to respond to these small questions and keep this post relatively on topic. Not sure you bargained for that much verbiage, or if I'm stating the obvious.
I don't think prejudice is the right word.
Prejudice is a thing that you have: it's a set of biases and assumptions about a person based on their appearance, their sex, their accent, their address, or whatever other information you think you know about them.
Discrimination is when you do things about your prejudice. If you think that members of group X are unreliable in the privacy of your own heart, you have a problem, but the scope is limited to your attitudes. If you use that prejudice to decide not to hire a member of group X, that's discrimination. Sometimes, discrimination can be through ignorance rather than prejudice. Ignorance should be promptly corrected when someone points it out...
Systemic effects are a third thing, where the discrimination is embedded in the fabric of a society, or a part of it.
And there's the rub. We have a lot of history of "separate but equal" not being, but can one school always meet everyone's needs, when those needs are different? Especially when some of those needs are contradictory: you can't have a wide array of courses to choose from, and also have a small school where everyone knows your name.