Why is this done/said?
Climacus
Shipmate
[I can't find the questions thread here; if I've missed it, apologies: please close this one.]
I went to a Low Latin Mass this morning (Monday) at an old convent chapel (beautiful) beside the (also beautiful) Cathedral. It has been, now I think, about 15 years since I last attended a Latin Mass*, so I have many questions. But 2 will suffice for now.
1. English was used exclusively for the Epistle, the Gospel (not the Last Gospel) and the final Low Mass Prayers (Hail Holy Mother/Mary, I think; a prayer to St Michael...): is this common today?
2. The prayer after Our Father contained a call to Mary, Ss Peter & Paul and St Andrew to pray: why the latter? I don't think he should be ignored, but he seemed an odd inclusion to me (who has very little idea about Patron Saints, so be gentle please...)
* Easter Vigil, so a bit more ceremonial than today's; and long-term shipmates may remember Ingo: it was his baptism (I pray he is doing well; I recall not all were fans, but I found him a delight and quite humble [yes, I know; I think one can be strident in some things yet remain humble...])
I went to a Low Latin Mass this morning (Monday) at an old convent chapel (beautiful) beside the (also beautiful) Cathedral. It has been, now I think, about 15 years since I last attended a Latin Mass*, so I have many questions. But 2 will suffice for now.
1. English was used exclusively for the Epistle, the Gospel (not the Last Gospel) and the final Low Mass Prayers (Hail Holy Mother/Mary, I think; a prayer to St Michael...): is this common today?
2. The prayer after Our Father contained a call to Mary, Ss Peter & Paul and St Andrew to pray: why the latter? I don't think he should be ignored, but he seemed an odd inclusion to me (who has very little idea about Patron Saints, so be gentle please...)
* Easter Vigil, so a bit more ceremonial than today's; and long-term shipmates may remember Ingo: it was his baptism (I pray he is doing well; I recall not all were fans, but I found him a delight and quite humble [yes, I know; I think one can be strident in some things yet remain humble...])
Comments
Apologies: I wasn't clear. This prayer was in the fixed service book which I believe is used at every celebration of the Mass (it did refer to certain seasons and gave appropriate texts). It wasn't a one specially for today; we did have a leaflet with today's readings, collects, and other terms I am not familiar with.
https://ewtn.co.uk/prayer-saint-andrew-novena/
Doesn't fully answer the "why" but does rule out some of the location or dedication possibilities.
I take it this was a Tridentine Mass not one celebrated with the current Missal, but in Latin.
I wonder if the mention of Andrew is a nod towards Constantinople and previous unity, having just mentioned Peter and Paul who are associated with Rome. And it was Andrew who introduced Peter to Christ making Andrew the first disciple.
If the Mass which Climacus attended was indeed a Tridentine Mass it is highly likely that the 'Leonine prayers' would have been said at the end of the Mass.
These were prayers which pope Leo XIII directed should be said at the end of Low Mass AND IN THE VERNACULAR. The aim in 1884 was to pray for the 'liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother Church' at a time when Italian patriots had incorporated the city of Rome into the Kingdom of Italy and there was a real clash between State and Church in Italy which lasted till 1929.
The particular prayer which calls on the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin,St Joseph,SS Peter and Paul and all the Saints . The prayer does not specifically mention St Andrew,however. The group may have found it difficult to find the original texts as the prayers were dropped from the Mass in 1965.
However then I realised he was talking about the prayer in the Mass which follows the Our Father.
In the present form of the Roman Mass the Our Father is followed by a prayer called the Embolism
'Deliver us, Lord, we pray from every evil, graciously grant peace in our days, that, by the help of your mercy we may be always free from sin and safe from all distress, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
In the Tridentine form of Mass ,used until the mid 1960s the prayer had the following form (which was said quietly by the priest and which would not have been noticed by all worshippers
Libera nos,quaesumus,Domine, ab omnibus malis,prateritis,presentibus et futuris : et,intercedente beata et gloriosa semper Virgine Dei Genetrice Maria,cum beatis Apostolis tuis Petro et Paulo,atque Andrea,et omnibus sanctis, da propitius pacem in diebus nostris ut ope misericordiae tuae adjuti,et a peccato simus semper liberi et ab omni perturbatione securi.........
Deliver us, we beseech thee,Lord, from all evils, past present and to come : and through the intercession of the Blessed and glorious ever virgin Mary, Mother of God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul and Andrew and of all thy Saints, graciously give peace in our days,so that,aided by thy mercy we may always remain free from sin and safe from all disturbance......
Both of these forms of the Embolism linked the Our Father with the later prayer for Peace and the sharing of peace amongst the worshippers.
The Tridentine form of the prayer would have been in the Roman Mass since at least 1570 and long before that. It appears in a pre Reformation Sarum Missal.
It was Andrew who introduced Peter to Christ, making Andrew the first disciple.
That sounds like as good a reason as any!
I wonder if that Pope came from the East pre-Schism.
Apologies if I used the wrong terms; I am very ignorant on this topic [as can be seen!]
Q: What is to be observed regarding the saints invoked?
A: They are the first four of the Communicates. The special mention of St Andrew may be traced back to the personal devotion of Pope St Gregory the First had towards him.
Canon MacMahon was professor of sacred liturgy at Holy Cross College Clonliffe Dublin. If you find a copy of this book it’s a mine of liturgical information.
However he gave a small item from the relics to the new Scottish cardinal,Gordon Gray with the words 'Petrus salutat Andream' (Peter greets Andrew). This can be seen in St Mary's metropolitan cathedral in Edinburgh.
According to Fortescue, in medieval times the celebrant could add the name of any saint in the Embolism. In Milan the name of Ambrose was inserted while in Rome it was Andrew.
In today's form of the Roman Mass there is a place in the eucharistic prayer for adding the name of any saintly patron as in EP 3 :
'that we may obtain an inheritance with your elect,especially the most Blessed virginMary,Mother of God ,with Blessed Joseph,her spouse and with Saint..... and all the saints. on whose constant intercession in your presence we rely for unfailing help.'
Forgive my ignorance: can any be added, or do you mean you may select, say, the Saint the parish is dedicated to or the Feast of the Day...? Or can a priest choose one he feels drawn to at that time?
Back to St Andrew ... the Orthodox call hime Protokletos, "the First-Called." He seems to have had a special place in the church of the early centuries.
As one of the Orthodoxy [though a deeply unfaithful member...], Alan29, that didn't even occur to me. Thank you. And for your first paragraph.
---
I was listening to a Bible study on the Lord's Prayer and the speaker said in Greek it begins Our Father "in the heavens", plural. This made the practice of the Russian parish I last went to understandable for they used that phrase (I meant to ask, but kept forgetting...)
Do other languages use the plural? Why did English plump for the singular? The thought we think of "heaven" as one place? Thank you.
Sadly my library is less extensive than it once was. I picked up my copy of 'Liturgical Catechism ' at a church jumble sale over forty years where I also bought a first edition of Fortescue's 'Ceremonies of the Roman Rite....' I didn't know anything much about liturgy at the time but these books sparked my interest and I've been a bit of a liturgy nerd ever since. Interestingly the church holding the sale wasn't RC, but a prominent local AC place.
Fixed coding - Nenya, Ecclesiantics Host
the Italian version starts Padre nostro che sei nei caeli (heavens)
the French version start Notre pere qui es aux cieux (heavens)
on the other hand
the German version starts Vater unser im Himmel (heaven)
but the Dutch version can be Onze Vader die in de hemel zijt (heaven)
or Onze Vader die in de hemelen zijt (heavens)
and yet Spanish Padre nuestro que estas en el cielo (heaven)
It is interesting, Robertus L, how one read can send us down an unexpected path. And hear you are on the internet helping me! Thank you.
Wandering around Armidale cemetery, there is a section for the Catholic religious. Some nuns have masculine names. I have heard of this before. Is there a particular reason, calling, for this?
(And I’m thinking of having watched Sister Act and Sister Act 2: Back in the Habit with my daughter last week, given that characters include Sister Mary Clarence, Sister Mary Patrick, Sister Mary Robert and Sister Mary Lazarus.
Eccles did used to have a miscellaneous questions thread.
Today (31st May), apparently, in the CofE is "The Visit of the Blessed Virgin Mary to Elizabeth", which has been promoted to a Greater, grade 1, saint's day, with its own compulsory readings and collect, sufficient to disrupt the thread of readings in the lectionary.
Does anybody know how, why and when this happened and on whose authority? It never used to be a full red letter day. In the 1662 prayerbook, it was shown in the calendar, but on a different date, 2nd July, and definitely as a Lesser, grade 2 or 3 optional event without its own prescribed readings, collect etc.
In the Alternative Service Book, it had changed its date, but was still down in the conference league among festivals. So it looks as though this has been a two stage process.
That doesn’t really answer your question about specific Church of England practice, but maybe it at least provides some context on why the change was made in the date.
FWIW, the Visitation appeared for the first time (so far as I know) on a Presbyterian calendar in the 1993 edition of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s Book of Common Worship. Our calendar also has it on May 31, and has separate readings for it.
I would guess it's part of Common Worship, so around 2000 and authorised by General Synod.
My guess anyway.
In the many changes brought about by Vatican 2 the date was changed to May 31st with its status being that of 'Feast'
In modern Roman rankings there are three levels of ascending importance
1. Memorial 2. Feast 3.Solemnity.
This may have played some part in the present CofE choice of date for the Feast of the Visitation.