I think the value lies in combination with other policies, and making it harder for other parties to pivot/triangulate in that direction.
To an extent - except here it’s one populist with a dodgy background attacking another. The more I see of Mr Polanski, the more I think the Greens have made an error in choosing him.
Even on Question Time, when the subject of ‘breast growth hypnotherapy’ came up he folded from ‘that’s misrepresented’ to everyone makes mistakes and it’s what you do in the future that counts, in about the same sentence,
Before seamlessly moving back to attacking Farage for his past.
People notice a lot of stuff, and they don't find everything to be equally salient.
If the Greens made an error then they have the opportunity of revisiting that choice in a year or two. One reading of the participation rates in their last few leadership elections is that most of their longer term members viewed membership as a kind of virtue good, and injecting a more instrumental outlook into that mix is probably not a bad thing, unless they wanted to forever stay in their lane (which anyway relies on a generational dynamic that is passing)
I think the value lies in combination with other policies, and making it harder for other parties to pivot/triangulate in that direction.
To an extent - except here it’s one populist with a dodgy background attacking another. The more I see of Mr Polanski, the more I think the Greens have made an error in choosing him.
Even on Question Time, when the subject of ‘breast growth hypnotherapy’ came up he folded from ‘that’s misrepresented’ to everyone makes mistakes and it’s what you do in the future that counts, in about the same sentence,
Before seamlessly moving back to attacking Farage for his past.
Tbh people notice this stuff.
It seems pretty clear to me that the issue wrt his hypnotherapy background is a smear from Labour transphobes.
I think the value lies in combination with other policies, and making it harder for other parties to pivot/triangulate in that direction.
To an extent - except here it’s one populist with a dodgy background attacking another. The more I see of Mr Polanski, the more I think the Greens have made an error in choosing him.
Even on Question Time, when the subject of ‘breast growth hypnotherapy’ came up he folded from ‘that’s misrepresented’ to everyone makes mistakes and it’s what you do in the future that counts, in about the same sentence,
Before seamlessly moving back to attacking Farage for his past.
Tbh people notice this stuff.
It seems pretty clear to me that the issue wrt his hypnotherapy background is a smear from Labour transphobes.
Was he actually doing hypnotherapy with the stated purpose of physically enlarging people's breasts? Or was it more like helping people come to psychological terms with breast-related issues? Or...?
That article is rather unclear about what exactly he was purporting to do.
Deputy Green Party Leader admits to performing hypnotherapy to 'enlarge' women's breasts in the past
The quoted word in the headline does not appear in context anywhere in the rest of the article, which just says he told women to "visualize themselves having larger breasts".
...Mr. Polanski apologized for his past actions and said he never believed them.
Setting aside the syntactical error of implying that one can believe actions(*), this makes it sound as if Polanski has admitted to performing procedures on his clients that he himself knew at the time were fake.
I can believe that all this was more-or-less just harmless New Age woo that at worst left some women short a few hundred pounds and with the same measurements as before. But it does kinda drive home my standing opinion, culled from observations in several countries, that Greens are not to be trusted with governing at all.
(*) As opposed to "believe in" actions, ie. think the actions were justified, or "believe" the idea behind the actions.
If someone wants to explain it, that'd be cool, but obviously no obligation.
No need, since I've dived into further research. Based on what I've read, it seems quite likely to me that he did at the time believe it was at least a good possibility that hypnosis could increase breast size.
Bernie Sanders in the USA got roasted a few years back over some articles he had written in a campus students' paper about how reichian orgasm therapy could cure cancer. As far as I know, that was a one-off, though I suspect the GOP woulda gone to town with it had he gotten the Democratic nomination.
If someone wants to explain it, that'd be cool, but obviously no obligation.
No need, since I've dived into further research. Based on what I've read, it seems quite likely to me that he did at the time believe it was at least a good possibility that hypnosis could increase breast size.
Not sure what you are going on, he says in the clip above that he was working with people on their body image, rather than increasing the size of parts of their body.
I can believe that all this was more-or-less just harmless New Age woo that at worst left some women short a few hundred pounds and with the same measurements as before. But it does kinda drive home my standing opinion, culled from observations in several countries, that Greens are not to be trusted with governing at all.
I find it hard to understand why this damns a whole international movement but actual political dishonesty of the sort routinely practised by neo-liberal parties of all stripes doesn't cause the same pronouncement about them.
The Scottish Green Party did, to my mind, an excellent job in government. They certainly pissed off all the right people and, more importantly, pushed the SNP into expanding free school meals and implementing the Scottish Child Payment which has drastically cut child poverty here.
@stetson echoing @Arethosemyfeet - alongside the points already made, Green parties are not a monolith and vary greatly between countries. The US Greens for eg are not really recognisable as being a Green party compared to European or Australian Green parties. The Greens in England and Wales tend to be vastly more conservative than most European Green parties.
If someone wants to explain it, that'd be cool, but obviously no obligation.
No need, since I've dived into further research. Based on what I've read, it seems quite likely to me that he did at the time believe it was at least a good possibility that hypnosis could increase breast size.
Not sure what you are going on, he says in the clip above that he was working with people on their body image, rather than increasing the size of parts of their body.
I'll take your word on that. Like I say, I don't think I can access Instagram on this phone. so I might just try to find it somewhere else, look at other sources etc, before getting back to you.
@stetson echoing @Arethosemyfeet - alongside the points already made, Green parties are not a monolith and vary greatly between countries. The US Greens for eg are not really recognisable as being a Green party compared to European or Australian Green parties. The Greens in England and Wales tend to be vastly more conservative than most European Green parties.
Fair enough. To re-phrase with less manichean bombast...
In my mental tally-sheet on the international Green movement with REDEEMABLE and IRREDEEMABLE heading the respective columns(*), the allegations against Polanski fall squarely under the latter(**).
And FWIW, I do detect at least a psychological kinship between the putinistas in the US Green Party and some of the characters I've encountered among the Canadian Greens, even though most of the latter probably dislike Putin.
(*) With the overarching issue being "Should the Greens supplant existing liberal and social-democratic parties as the main left-wing parties in their respective countries?
(**) And yes, there ARE entries under Redeemable as well. Elizabeth May's wacky-but-poignant appropriation of the Welcome Back Kotter theme to make a statement against the excesses of the War On Terror being just one of them. I don't even mind the fact that she was supposedly bombed out of her mind during that otherwise trainwreck of a speech.
...there ARE entries under Redeemable as well. Elizabeth May's wacky-but-poignant appropriation of the Welcome Back Kotter theme to make a statement against the excesses of the War On Terror being just one of them. I don't even mind the fact that she was supposedly bombed out of her mind during that otherwise trainwreck of a speech.
Just been rewatching that speech(2015 Press Club Dinner) on YouTube, and "trainwreck" might've been too strong a word. More like she's trying to do a stand-up routine of gonzo political satire, but really misreading how the jokes were landing.
You can access Instagram via the mobile site, you don't need the app.
I'm not sure why this would make Polanski irredeemable especially given the vested interest Labour transphobes have in this story. I also note that you don't mention anything about eg the Scottish Greens or any other European Greens?
@stetson echoing @Arethosemyfeet - alongside the points already made, Green parties are not a monolith and vary greatly between countries. The US Greens for eg are not really recognisable as being a Green party compared to European or Australian Green parties. The Greens in England and Wales tend to be vastly more conservative than most European Green parties.
In my mental tally-sheet on the international Green movement with REDEEMABLE and IRREDEEMABLE heading the respective columns(*), the allegations against Polanski fall squarely under the latter(**).
(*) With the overarching issue being "Should the Greens supplant existing liberal and social-democratic parties as the main left-wing parties in their respective countries?
Do you keep a similar mental tally sheet for "existing liberal and social-democratic parties"? It seems utterly bizarre to measure Green parties against an abstract standard rather than the parties you see them as seeking to replace.
Well if someone lies about Brexit being great for the economy and/or promotes absolutely pernicious crap about trans people, immigrants, disabled people- and tells lies that can lead to people losing their human rights or falling into poverty or starving - that seems to be viewed as quite within the bounds of mainstream politics' current Overton window.
But God forbid somebody who consistently and forcefully speaks out against that has ever said or done something daft on a minor level while being set up by The Sun.
It would be lovely if people who stand up against the current tsunami of hatred in our society were all impeccable and infallible but given how much selling out even the better mainstream politicians do on social security and trans people etc, I think that much though I dislike woo and think he has said some daft things, I'm grateful for the way Polanski has spoken out forcefully against hatred and hope it puts a rocket up others to do better.
If they dont want people to vote for him maybe other politicians could speak out as clearly as he does and nab those votes for themselves.
Lib Dems tend to have issues with Polanski too, but that's because the Greens want to supplant them as the 'third' party in UK politics rather than anything to do with transgender or other potentially Epiphanous issues.
Bringing the conversation back to Reform (and it's good that we all ignored them for a while given the inordinate amount of publicity they get), the old 'two party plus the Liberals' thing has collapsed anyway.
I'll look for the link, but someone notified me that Farage is talking about the possibility of a deal with the Tories at the next Election.
I can't say I'm surprised. I think it's been predicted on these boards before.
Whatever else we might say about the Conservatives they are nothing if not resilient but I'm beginning to think they are holed below the waterline.
That said, they recently beat Reform in a by-election not far from here, so perhaps they can weather this particular storm.
I assume the knives will be out for Badenoch within 12 month. Jenrick is clearly on manoeuvres positioning himself as the bigots' bigot. It just needs someone to step up as sacrificial knife-wielder (he who wields the knife cannot wear the crown and all that).
Indeed. I'm not expecting to see either Badenoch or Starmer as leaders at the next General Election. Badenoch's 'No Stamp Duty' shtick went down well at the Tory Party Conference. A little sweetener for them.
It will take more than that for her to avoid the knife between the shoulder-blades though and I imagine there'd be no shortage of hands itching to plunge it.
The Conservatives are very resilient but they are also very, very ruthless.
We have had two MPs murdered in the last ten years, and others stalked and/or threatened with violence. Can we refrain therefore please from violent metaphor.
The fuss about Polanski looks very much like a desperate attempt to stem the haemorrhage (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) of left-wing support to the Greens from Labour and LibDems (as well as the yet unnamed party). The impact of that on the left of British politics is yet to be seen, and a different thread if anyone wants to run with that.
One slightly dodgy work from someone who has bounced around many jobs, an experience many working class people have with the volatile labour market, before coming into politics doesn't seem to be anything substantial compared to, say, a party leader who has admitted to taking bribes from Russia and other senior members of that party who have long been suspected of being unduly influenced by Putin's regime. Or, another party leader who had a previous career in journalism where he was renowned for just making stuff up just before his opinion piece was needed. Compared to the leaders of Reform, Polanski looks like a saint; a probably misjudged attempt to make women feel better about their bodies through hypnotherapy is a long way from scamming the public into supporting Brexit, let alone playing the game of claiming salaries and expenses from the public purse while doing the minimum work possible which is close to fraud, or the aforementioned financial inducements from foreign nations and financial shenanigans to avoid paying their fair share of tax. Or, even just basic incompetence and making promises they should have known they can't keep (eg: cutting council taxes).
While the impact of a Green surge on the left is yet to be seen, we've already seen the impact of Reform scamming the public on the right. At present there's not much sign of support for Reform waning, though maybe we've reached the peak of that with the majority of those inclined to support them already doing so and few of those not currently supporting them ever likely to do so. Badenoch has failed to be seen (and, in politics it's important to do something and be seen doing that) to be offering a Conservative alternative to Reform. She suggested during their conference that there's been a lot of work behind the scenes to produce a credible policy platform to fight from, if that's not produced and backed up by a slick campaign before the elections next year then the outcome of that election looks bad for the Conservatives, and probably good for Reform (and, therefore awful for everyone), and the calls for her to go will be very loud - I don't think the political nous of the Conservative Party will result in the knives coming out before those elections, it's pretty much electoral suicide to oust your leader just before an election.
An obviously left winger with a rising profile. Who will not just stand by and let Farage run over him. Who will tell the truth about Farage over and over again. Who has moved strongly up the polls both as an individual and as a party. Farage’s base may not bother but others are taking notice.
@stetson echoing @Arethosemyfeet - alongside the points already made, Green parties are not a monolith and vary greatly between countries. The US Greens for eg are not really recognisable as being a Green party compared to European or Australian Green parties. The Greens in England and Wales tend to be vastly more conservative than most European Green parties.
In my mental tally-sheet on the international Green movement with REDEEMABLE and IRREDEEMABLE heading the respective columns(*), the allegations against Polanski fall squarely under the latter(**).
(*) With the overarching issue being "Should the Greens supplant existing liberal and social-democratic parties as the main left-wing parties in their respective countries?
Do you keep a similar mental tally sheet for "existing liberal and social-democratic parties"? It seems utterly bizarre to measure Green parties against an abstract standard rather than the parties you see them as seeking to replace.
Actually, I DO keep a mental tally of global political movements, based partly on how their national and local parties behave.
And I suspect I'm not the only one, eg. I'm pretty sure there are voters in the UK who, when pondering the desirability of a Reform government, think to themselves "Hmm, that sounds a lot like what Trump has been doing in the US, and I don't really like the way that's been going." Rather than simply comparing Reform to the homefront parties they're seeking to replace.
But I will concede that nothing I learn about any Green party anywhere else in the world would have an impact on my willingness to vote for the Green Party Of Canada, which is currently and almost certainly always will be zero. Admittedly, that's simply because I have a near-religious commitment to always voting for the New Democratic Party no matter what.
Any further discussion on cross-border analysis of political parties should probably be on a separate thread.
re: Polanski and breast enlargement. So, I gather the reporter came to him openly working as a reporter, and during a paid session for other services, asked him to perform a hypnosis procedure with the intention of enlarging breasts, and after informing her it would not work, proceeded to do so, and then she wrote it up in the Sun as "Hypnotist did breast-enlargement surgery on me."
Okay. I can buy that. Not sure if it showed the greatest judgement on his part, eg. I think a dentist asked to do an equivalent procedure for teeth would just say no, full stop. But I assume hypnotism is not a guilded profession with the same sorta standards as the medical field.
Was Labour's transphobic angle something like trying to imply that he was doing those procedures with the intention of helping biological males enlarge their breasts?
Sorry. Missed a pronoun and inserted the word "surgery" improperly there.
Correction...
re: Polanski and breast enlargement. So, I gather the reporter came to him openly working as a reporter, and during a paid session for other services, asked him to perform a hypnosis procedure with the intention of enlarging her breasts, and after informing her it would not work, he proceeded to do so, and then she wrote it up in the Sun as "Hypnotist did breast-enlargement procedure on me."
To go back to Reform. During the County Council elections in May Reform seemed to be doing most of their campaigning on-line. They did really well in my county though my division and adjoining ones stayed Conservative (one after the Reform councillor resigned a few days after winning his seat and there was a by-election). We now have a by-election for the district council. Last time an Independent won it from Labour by 8 votes. This time I think it is anyone's guess but Reform have leafleted three times in the last week. All their bumf is about national issues and heavily features Farage. I wonder if they are doing this because they think they can win, or are they starting to worry that they won't. I really would love to talk to the candidate and or those delivering leaflets (I'm a Town Councillor for this ward) but two days ago they did the political equivalent of knock down Ginger. They posted a leaflet through the door, rang the bell and then disappeared before I could get there to answer it. Yesterday we were out. I hope they come back before the election. In the meantime I'll be out leafleting for our candidate and it'll be interesting to see what the response is.
So despite their talk in the elections Reform are putting taxes up. They seem to have realised that there was nothing to cut. Things are cut to the bone already.
They have banned books in children’s libraries they don’t like.
Maybe people will finally see them for what they are.
There has been a lot of chatter about discontent among many Reform councillors and council candidates that the local groups are sidelined - with the national party leadership pushing particular candidates on them who may not be local and with campaign messaging that doesn't reflect local issues. The election material @Sarasa reports is consistent with the second part of that - election leaflets should have the candidate prominently featured, it's who people will be voting for, with the national leader delegated to, at the most, a wee picture with a short quote along the lines of "[Name] will be an excellent councillor and I urge you to get out and vote for them".
Reform rode the last local elections in England on, it seems, a national wave. That wave will only take them so far if they don't also address issues that people locally are concerned with. Unfortunately, on current polling, that wave is still going to be strong enough for them to make gains in the coming local elections, and the Scottish and Welsh elections.
So despite their talk in the elections Reform are putting taxes up. They seem to have realised that there was nothing to cut. Things are cut to the bone already.
They have banned books in children’s libraries they don’t like.
Maybe people will finally see them for what they are.
Trouble is @Hugal, a lot of people do want to see them do that sort of thing and more besides.
That's what worries me.
@BroJames - I apologise for the violent metaphor and will avoid them on political threads in future.
It might be an idea for me to avoid them in other contexts too. Not because I think it will incentivise people to consider acts of violence but because there are other and more appropriate ways to talk about these things.
I've just got some leaflets from Hope not Hate to deliver this week end. The message is that the majority of the British people don't support Reform's hatred and division, and not to feel that we are outnumbered by them.
As usual it all come back to who is motivated to get out and vote. There is a certain feeling of inevitability about reform winning at the moment. I do worry this could lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. We need politicians to push the fact that Reform want to get rid of the NHS and other bad stuff.
As usual it all come back to who is motivated to get out and vote. There is a certain feeling of inevitability about reform winning at the moment. I do worry this could lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. We need politicians to push the fact that Reform want to get rid of the NHS and other bad stuff.
Yes, but I wonder if it will affect the vote. Reform have the great virtue of never having been in office.
As usual it all come back to who is motivated to get out and vote. There is a certain feeling of inevitability about reform winning at the moment. I do worry this could lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. We need politicians to push the fact that Reform want to get rid of the NHS and other bad stuff.
Yes, but I wonder if it will affect the vote. Reform have the great virtue of never having been in office.
And saying what their demographic think they want to hear (lord have mercy).
Reform rode the last local elections in England on, it seems, a national wave. That wave will only take them so far if they don't also address issues that people locally are concerned with. Unfortunately, on current polling, that wave is still going to be strong enough for them to make gains in the coming local elections, and the Scottish and Welsh elections.
If (when?) the shine rubs off Nigel Farage I think Reform will shrink very rapidly. As it is I really object to flyers of a grinning Farage telling me he'll sort out anti-social behaviour in our town. We have councillors working very successfully on that already thank you.
As usual it all come back to who is motivated to get out and vote. There is a certain feeling of inevitability about reform winning at the moment. I do worry this could lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. We need politicians to push the fact that Reform want to get rid of the NHS and other bad stuff.
I think politicians are saying that.
But nobody seems to be listening.
It's a moot point but Reform would argue that they aren't out to 'get rid' of the NHS but are out to 'reform' it.
Which, given what I can see of what they are trying to do at local council level it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
They seem to object to any council expenditure of any kind, even for things that benefit the people who voted for them.
As usual it all come back to who is motivated to get out and vote. There is a certain feeling of inevitability about reform winning at the moment. I do worry this could lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. We need politicians to push the fact that Reform want to get rid of the NHS and other bad stuff.
I think politicians are saying that.
But nobody seems to be listening.
It's a moot point but Reform would argue that they aren't out to 'get rid' of the NHS but are out to 'reform' it.
Which, given what I can see of what they are trying to do at local council level it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
They seem to object to any council expenditure of any kind, even for things that benefit the people who voted for them.
Yes, but no matter how they word it they want to replace our current NHS with a US style insurance model. That means getting rid of it so we can say that.
The point of councils is to spend the money raised. They must know that. As for as I can see they promised what they knew they couldn’t follow through. If they didn’t know that they were fools. No other word for it.
The shine is coming off them.
The shine 'should' be coming off them but it isn't so far, at least not in my area.
Reform take advantage of the fact that most people don't understand how local councils work, what they spend money on or how their budgets are set.
They also piggyback on what other councillors have done and take credit for it themselves. That does go on to a certain extent across all political parties, to be fair, but some people have only started to show an interest in local politics now Reform has representatives on their town, borough or county councils.
I'd love to agree with you and say that the shine is coming off, but even if that is the case, a lot of people are still dazzled by their false glitter and spin.
Reason doesn't come into it. These people aren't making decisions based on facts, evidence or rational debate. It is an emotional response and Reform know that.
They are putting it out there that local councils are all ineffective and profligate and people believe it because they want to believe it and want to have someone to blame.
If it's not asylum seekers or migrants it's 'woke' or allegedly profligate local councils. If it wasn't that they'd be blaming something or someone else.
Their whole pitch is a simple one. Everything is shit. The other councillors/parties aren't doing anything about it. We are and can.
We live in a complex world. Punishing reality doesn't work.
I need a new country, where I am not governed by morons elected by morons.
This is harsh, but we have had government, since 1997 at least, which quails in fear of morons looking for simplistic solutions. They don't work - they haven't in the last 28 years and they won't start now.
If this cannot be successfully transmitted, the attempts to punish reality will continue to rebound on everyone, more and more fiercely.
Reality is a dictatorship, against which democracy is not a defence.
I agree to an extent. There popularity in several polls has gone down. I agree that emotions often outweigh facts. That gave us Brexit. I sure they are going to slide when those who are not their true base see them for what they are.
I sure they are going to slide when those who are not their true base see them for what they are.
I’m sure that’s a reassuring thought, but when none of the other parties are even trying to give a solution to the fact that everything is shit right now then it’s not one anyone should put their faith in. The Tories made it shit in the first place. Labour are making it worse. The Lib Dems are too busy doing novelty press events that nobody cares about. The Greens are a bunch of tofu and hypnotherapy weirdos. Reform are giving answers that people seem to like. Simplistic ones, yes. Fascist ones, even. But people are listening. It scares me, and frankly I’ve lived for too long to trust in those people suddenly having a change of heart about a Reform government before they’ve even tried it.
We are not going to avoid a Reform government just by bleating on about how evil they are. We need to give people an alternative to scapegoating and xenophobia that they can actually vote for. Something that will actually make their lives better. And nobody seems to be willing or able to offer that.
It feels like 90 years ago all over again. We’re fucked.
Why repeat such crap right-wing propaganda about the Greens?
I see content from Green politicians in both the English/Welsh and Scots parties in their social media feeds right from the horses mouths.
Mentions of tofu - zero
If you're attacking veganism, there's a hard-headed reason why people worried about climate destruction might be interested in more plant-based diets but again it's very rarely mentioned.
Hypnotherapy as an issue, as mentioned elsewhere, comes from a hit job by a reporter working for that pal of ordinary working people Rupert Murdoch on one politician.
That politician, Zack Polanski, as is easily verified by looking at what he posts, actually spends his time talking about the cost of living, wages not being high enough, bills being too high, public services in general needing to be better financed, funding the NHS properly, the lies about immigration being harmful, the truth about Brexit damaging the economy, the need to reign in the wealthiest and tax them properly etc. He does go on a bit about membership levels but that's not exactly abnormal politician behaviour.
In fact you could criticise him for not saying enough about climate breakdown...
There are reasonable criticisms that could be made of some things he has said but this drivel about 'tofu' and the constant repetition of, not even The Sun's greatest hit - but it's one hit wonder on him aren't it.
Also, tofu is a completely normal food for people from many cultures and not even associated with veganism or vegetarianism - many Chinese people regularly eat tofu stuffed with meat. It's also a totally normal food that you can find in any UK supermarket. Using tofu as an insult brings to mind both xenophobia (the accusation that tofu isn't something normal British people eat, utterly untrue) and the far-right "soy boy" meme, which isn't based on reality (if phytoestrogens really worked just like mammalian estrogen, women could use soy as birth control) but on the racist idea that Japanese men are less masculine than European men. It's also important to remember that The Sun's hitjob on Zack Polanski is primarily driven by his stance opposing transphobia.
The Lib Dems are also not doing publicity stunts outside of election campaigning, because that's what those were for - and in the seats the LDs were targeting, they worked. My MP was one of the new LD MPs and his main priorities have been spearheading a bill to prevent mutilated puppies being imported to the UK for sale here under an existing loophole, and to strengthen protections for local rivers and the South Downs against Southern Water and the government watering down wildlife protections for new housing.
Reform have dropped some major clangers in several local councils now and heads are rolling in some places. I could give links when I have more time.
That is encouraging.
It does move me to share some of @Hugal's optimism.
I also agree with recent posts which cite positive things that the Lib Dems, Greens and others are doing, often without a great deal of publicity. The only reason the Lib Dems perform stunts is because we don't get a lot of coverage otherwise, whereas if a Reform MP farts it's all over the front pages or prominent on the TV or radio news.
I share @Marvin the Martian's concerns to some extent. Other parties are offering something but the media aren't taking much notice but puffing Farage and Co for all they are worth. If there was ever a Reform government they'd soon find their wings clipped. I have no idea why the BBC and others are giving Reform so much air-time. They'd be the first to feel the chill hand of repression were Reform ever to gain power.
Ok, the media sets people up only to pull them down. I hope that happens. I hope the wheels fall off Farage's cart before we get anywhere near a general election.
We live in hope.
But for now the momentum continues. I hope they career off the tracks before long but we need to be prepared in case they don't.
I noted that 4 Reform councillors in Kent have been suspended for bringing the party into disrepute. Which is quite an achievement, given that requires Reform having a good reputation that could be besmirched. Maybe they were recorded telling the truth that asylum seekers are not "illegal" and migration is good for the UK?
It was a meeting of Kent Council Reform councillors, not a meeting about national issues of course @Alan Cresswell .
The issue they are facing is how to prevent a rise in the Council Tax precept by around 4.5% to 5%.
Reform have stood locally on cutting Council Tax and council expenditure in general.
They are now finding out how difficult it is to do that.
And, it appears from the video on The Guardian website, resorting to backbiting, bullying and aggressive behaviour as they fall out over how to achieve their stated aims.
Quelle surprise!
Will it make any difference to their level of support though?
From what I've seen telling people to 'fucking suck it up' is part of their modus operandi.
Their supporters wouldn't see anything wrong in that.
Comments
To an extent - except here it’s one populist with a dodgy background attacking another. The more I see of Mr Polanski, the more I think the Greens have made an error in choosing him.
Even on Question Time, when the subject of ‘breast growth hypnotherapy’ came up he folded from ‘that’s misrepresented’ to everyone makes mistakes and it’s what you do in the future that counts, in about the same sentence,
Before seamlessly moving back to attacking Farage for his past.
Tbh people notice this stuff.
If the Greens made an error then they have the opportunity of revisiting that choice in a year or two. One reading of the participation rates in their last few leadership elections is that most of their longer term members viewed membership as a kind of virtue good, and injecting a more instrumental outlook into that mix is probably not a bad thing, unless they wanted to forever stay in their lane (which anyway relies on a generational dynamic that is passing)
It seems pretty clear to me that the issue wrt his hypnotherapy background is a smear from Labour transphobes.
Was he actually doing hypnotherapy with the stated purpose of physically enlarging people's breasts? Or was it more like helping people come to psychological terms with breast-related issues? Or...?
Deputy Green Party Leader admits to performing hypnotherapy to 'enlarge' women's breasts in the past
The quoted word in the headline does not appear in context anywhere in the rest of the article, which just says he told women to "visualize themselves having larger breasts".
Setting aside the syntactical error of implying that one can believe actions(*), this makes it sound as if Polanski has admitted to performing procedures on his clients that he himself knew at the time were fake.
I can believe that all this was more-or-less just harmless New Age woo that at worst left some women short a few hundred pounds and with the same measurements as before. But it does kinda drive home my standing opinion, culled from observations in several countries, that Greens are not to be trusted with governing at all.
(*) As opposed to "believe in" actions, ie. think the actions were justified, or "believe" the idea behind the actions.
There's a clearer explanation here:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPj3TRcDe56/
(Which I think is from the Pod Save the UK podcast).
Thanks. But that's not working on my phone(I don't really do apps). If someone wants to explain it, that'd be cool, but obviously no obligation.
No need, since I've dived into further research. Based on what I've read, it seems quite likely to me that he did at the time believe it was at least a good possibility that hypnosis could increase breast size.
Bernie Sanders in the USA got roasted a few years back over some articles he had written in a campus students' paper about how reichian orgasm therapy could cure cancer. As far as I know, that was a one-off, though I suspect the GOP woulda gone to town with it had he gotten the Democratic nomination.
Not sure what you are going on, he says in the clip above that he was working with people on their body image, rather than increasing the size of parts of their body.
I find it hard to understand why this damns a whole international movement but actual political dishonesty of the sort routinely practised by neo-liberal parties of all stripes doesn't cause the same pronouncement about them.
The Scottish Green Party did, to my mind, an excellent job in government. They certainly pissed off all the right people and, more importantly, pushed the SNP into expanding free school meals and implementing the Scottish Child Payment which has drastically cut child poverty here.
I'll take your word on that. Like I say, I don't think I can access Instagram on this phone. so I might just try to find it somewhere else, look at other sources etc, before getting back to you.
Fair enough. To re-phrase with less manichean bombast...
In my mental tally-sheet on the international Green movement with REDEEMABLE and IRREDEEMABLE heading the respective columns(*), the allegations against Polanski fall squarely under the latter(**).
And FWIW, I do detect at least a psychological kinship between the putinistas in the US Green Party and some of the characters I've encountered among the Canadian Greens, even though most of the latter probably dislike Putin.
(*) With the overarching issue being "Should the Greens supplant existing liberal and social-democratic parties as the main left-wing parties in their respective countries?
(**) And yes, there ARE entries under Redeemable as well. Elizabeth May's wacky-but-poignant appropriation of the Welcome Back Kotter theme to make a statement against the excesses of the War On Terror being just one of them. I don't even mind the fact that she was supposedly bombed out of her mind during that otherwise trainwreck of a speech.
Just been rewatching that speech(2015 Press Club Dinner) on YouTube, and "trainwreck" might've been too strong a word. More like she's trying to do a stand-up routine of gonzo political satire, but really misreading how the jokes were landing.
I'm not sure why this would make Polanski irredeemable especially given the vested interest Labour transphobes have in this story. I also note that you don't mention anything about eg the Scottish Greens or any other European Greens?
Do you keep a similar mental tally sheet for "existing liberal and social-democratic parties"? It seems utterly bizarre to measure Green parties against an abstract standard rather than the parties you see them as seeking to replace.
But God forbid somebody who consistently and forcefully speaks out against that has ever said or done something daft on a minor level while being set up by The Sun.
It would be lovely if people who stand up against the current tsunami of hatred in our society were all impeccable and infallible but given how much selling out even the better mainstream politicians do on social security and trans people etc, I think that much though I dislike woo and think he has said some daft things, I'm grateful for the way Polanski has spoken out forcefully against hatred and hope it puts a rocket up others to do better.
If they dont want people to vote for him maybe other politicians could speak out as clearly as he does and nab those votes for themselves.
Bringing the conversation back to Reform (and it's good that we all ignored them for a while given the inordinate amount of publicity they get), the old 'two party plus the Liberals' thing has collapsed anyway.
I'll look for the link, but someone notified me that Farage is talking about the possibility of a deal with the Tories at the next Election.
I can't say I'm surprised. I think it's been predicted on these boards before.
Whatever else we might say about the Conservatives they are nothing if not resilient but I'm beginning to think they are holed below the waterline.
That said, they recently beat Reform in a by-election not far from here, so perhaps they can weather this particular storm.
It will take more than that for her to avoid the knife between the shoulder-blades though and I imagine there'd be no shortage of hands itching to plunge it.
The Conservatives are very resilient but they are also very, very ruthless.
We have had two MPs murdered in the last ten years, and others stalked and/or threatened with violence. Can we refrain therefore please from violent metaphor.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
One slightly dodgy work from someone who has bounced around many jobs, an experience many working class people have with the volatile labour market, before coming into politics doesn't seem to be anything substantial compared to, say, a party leader who has admitted to taking bribes from Russia and other senior members of that party who have long been suspected of being unduly influenced by Putin's regime. Or, another party leader who had a previous career in journalism where he was renowned for just making stuff up just before his opinion piece was needed. Compared to the leaders of Reform, Polanski looks like a saint; a probably misjudged attempt to make women feel better about their bodies through hypnotherapy is a long way from scamming the public into supporting Brexit, let alone playing the game of claiming salaries and expenses from the public purse while doing the minimum work possible which is close to fraud, or the aforementioned financial inducements from foreign nations and financial shenanigans to avoid paying their fair share of tax. Or, even just basic incompetence and making promises they should have known they can't keep (eg: cutting council taxes).
While the impact of a Green surge on the left is yet to be seen, we've already seen the impact of Reform scamming the public on the right. At present there's not much sign of support for Reform waning, though maybe we've reached the peak of that with the majority of those inclined to support them already doing so and few of those not currently supporting them ever likely to do so. Badenoch has failed to be seen (and, in politics it's important to do something and be seen doing that) to be offering a Conservative alternative to Reform. She suggested during their conference that there's been a lot of work behind the scenes to produce a credible policy platform to fight from, if that's not produced and backed up by a slick campaign before the elections next year then the outcome of that election looks bad for the Conservatives, and probably good for Reform (and, therefore awful for everyone), and the calls for her to go will be very loud - I don't think the political nous of the Conservative Party will result in the knives coming out before those elections, it's pretty much electoral suicide to oust your leader just before an election.
Actually, I DO keep a mental tally of global political movements, based partly on how their national and local parties behave.
And I suspect I'm not the only one, eg. I'm pretty sure there are voters in the UK who, when pondering the desirability of a Reform government, think to themselves "Hmm, that sounds a lot like what Trump has been doing in the US, and I don't really like the way that's been going." Rather than simply comparing Reform to the homefront parties they're seeking to replace.
But I will concede that nothing I learn about any Green party anywhere else in the world would have an impact on my willingness to vote for the Green Party Of Canada, which is currently and almost certainly always will be zero. Admittedly, that's simply because I have a near-religious commitment to always voting for the New Democratic Party no matter what.
Any further discussion on cross-border analysis of political parties should probably be on a separate thread.
re: Polanski and breast enlargement. So, I gather the reporter came to him openly working as a reporter, and during a paid session for other services, asked him to perform a hypnosis procedure with the intention of enlarging breasts, and after informing her it would not work, proceeded to do so, and then she wrote it up in the Sun as "Hypnotist did breast-enlargement surgery on me."
Okay. I can buy that. Not sure if it showed the greatest judgement on his part, eg. I think a dentist asked to do an equivalent procedure for teeth would just say no, full stop. But I assume hypnotism is not a guilded profession with the same sorta standards as the medical field.
Was Labour's transphobic angle something like trying to imply that he was doing those procedures with the intention of helping biological males enlarge their breasts?
Correction...
re: Polanski and breast enlargement. So, I gather the reporter came to him openly working as a reporter, and during a paid session for other services, asked him to perform a hypnosis procedure with the intention of enlarging her breasts, and after informing her it would not work, he proceeded to do so, and then she wrote it up in the Sun as "Hypnotist did breast-enlargement procedure on me."
They have banned books in children’s libraries they don’t like.
Maybe people will finally see them for what they are.
Reform rode the last local elections in England on, it seems, a national wave. That wave will only take them so far if they don't also address issues that people locally are concerned with. Unfortunately, on current polling, that wave is still going to be strong enough for them to make gains in the coming local elections, and the Scottish and Welsh elections.
Trouble is @Hugal, a lot of people do want to see them do that sort of thing and more besides.
That's what worries me.
@BroJames - I apologise for the violent metaphor and will avoid them on political threads in future.
It might be an idea for me to avoid them in other contexts too. Not because I think it will incentivise people to consider acts of violence but because there are other and more appropriate ways to talk about these things.
Nudge accepted and noted.
Yes, but I wonder if it will affect the vote. Reform have the great virtue of never having been in office.
And saying what their demographic think they want to hear (lord have mercy).
If (when?) the shine rubs off Nigel Farage I think Reform will shrink very rapidly. As it is I really object to flyers of a grinning Farage telling me he'll sort out anti-social behaviour in our town. We have councillors working very successfully on that already thank you.
I think politicians are saying that.
But nobody seems to be listening.
It's a moot point but Reform would argue that they aren't out to 'get rid' of the NHS but are out to 'reform' it.
Which, given what I can see of what they are trying to do at local council level it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
They seem to object to any council expenditure of any kind, even for things that benefit the people who voted for them.
Yes, but no matter how they word it they want to replace our current NHS with a US style insurance model. That means getting rid of it so we can say that.
The point of councils is to spend the money raised. They must know that. As for as I can see they promised what they knew they couldn’t follow through. If they didn’t know that they were fools. No other word for it.
The shine is coming off them.
Reform take advantage of the fact that most people don't understand how local councils work, what they spend money on or how their budgets are set.
They also piggyback on what other councillors have done and take credit for it themselves. That does go on to a certain extent across all political parties, to be fair, but some people have only started to show an interest in local politics now Reform has representatives on their town, borough or county councils.
I'd love to agree with you and say that the shine is coming off, but even if that is the case, a lot of people are still dazzled by their false glitter and spin.
Reason doesn't come into it. These people aren't making decisions based on facts, evidence or rational debate. It is an emotional response and Reform know that.
They are putting it out there that local councils are all ineffective and profligate and people believe it because they want to believe it and want to have someone to blame.
If it's not asylum seekers or migrants it's 'woke' or allegedly profligate local councils. If it wasn't that they'd be blaming something or someone else.
Their whole pitch is a simple one. Everything is shit. The other councillors/parties aren't doing anything about it. We are and can.
It's a simplistic message but people buy it.
I need a new country, where I am not governed by morons elected by morons.
This is harsh, but we have had government, since 1997 at least, which quails in fear of morons looking for simplistic solutions. They don't work - they haven't in the last 28 years and they won't start now.
If this cannot be successfully transmitted, the attempts to punish reality will continue to rebound on everyone, more and more fiercely.
Reality is a dictatorship, against which democracy is not a defence.
I’m sure that’s a reassuring thought, but when none of the other parties are even trying to give a solution to the fact that everything is shit right now then it’s not one anyone should put their faith in. The Tories made it shit in the first place. Labour are making it worse. The Lib Dems are too busy doing novelty press events that nobody cares about. The Greens are a bunch of tofu and hypnotherapy weirdos. Reform are giving answers that people seem to like. Simplistic ones, yes. Fascist ones, even. But people are listening. It scares me, and frankly I’ve lived for too long to trust in those people suddenly having a change of heart about a Reform government before they’ve even tried it.
We are not going to avoid a Reform government just by bleating on about how evil they are. We need to give people an alternative to scapegoating and xenophobia that they can actually vote for. Something that will actually make their lives better. And nobody seems to be willing or able to offer that.
It feels like 90 years ago all over again. We’re fucked.
I see content from Green politicians in both the English/Welsh and Scots parties in their social media feeds right from the horses mouths.
Mentions of tofu - zero
If you're attacking veganism, there's a hard-headed reason why people worried about climate destruction might be interested in more plant-based diets but again it's very rarely mentioned.
Hypnotherapy as an issue, as mentioned elsewhere, comes from a hit job by a reporter working for that pal of ordinary working people Rupert Murdoch on one politician.
That politician, Zack Polanski, as is easily verified by looking at what he posts, actually spends his time talking about the cost of living, wages not being high enough, bills being too high, public services in general needing to be better financed, funding the NHS properly, the lies about immigration being harmful, the truth about Brexit damaging the economy, the need to reign in the wealthiest and tax them properly etc. He does go on a bit about membership levels but that's not exactly abnormal politician behaviour.
In fact you could criticise him for not saying enough about climate breakdown...
There are reasonable criticisms that could be made of some things he has said but this drivel about 'tofu' and the constant repetition of, not even The Sun's greatest hit - but it's one hit wonder on him aren't it.
The Lib Dems are also not doing publicity stunts outside of election campaigning, because that's what those were for - and in the seats the LDs were targeting, they worked. My MP was one of the new LD MPs and his main priorities have been spearheading a bill to prevent mutilated puppies being imported to the UK for sale here under an existing loophole, and to strengthen protections for local rivers and the South Downs against Southern Water and the government watering down wildlife protections for new housing.
That is encouraging.
It does move me to share some of @Hugal's optimism.
I also agree with recent posts which cite positive things that the Lib Dems, Greens and others are doing, often without a great deal of publicity. The only reason the Lib Dems perform stunts is because we don't get a lot of coverage otherwise, whereas if a Reform MP farts it's all over the front pages or prominent on the TV or radio news.
I share @Marvin the Martian's concerns to some extent. Other parties are offering something but the media aren't taking much notice but puffing Farage and Co for all they are worth. If there was ever a Reform government they'd soon find their wings clipped. I have no idea why the BBC and others are giving Reform so much air-time. They'd be the first to feel the chill hand of repression were Reform ever to gain power.
Ok, the media sets people up only to pull them down. I hope that happens. I hope the wheels fall off Farage's cart before we get anywhere near a general election.
We live in hope.
But for now the momentum continues. I hope they career off the tracks before long but we need to be prepared in case they don't.
The issue they are facing is how to prevent a rise in the Council Tax precept by around 4.5% to 5%.
Reform have stood locally on cutting Council Tax and council expenditure in general.
They are now finding out how difficult it is to do that.
And, it appears from the video on The Guardian website, resorting to backbiting, bullying and aggressive behaviour as they fall out over how to achieve their stated aims.
Quelle surprise!
Will it make any difference to their level of support though?
From what I've seen telling people to 'fucking suck it up' is part of their modus operandi.
Their supporters wouldn't see anything wrong in that.
If schadenfreude is a sin then my parish priest will be hearing a lot from me ere long ...