The term “cancel culture” is used most frequently by conservative politicians, right‑leaning media, and public figures who feel targeted by social backlash. These groups frame it as censorship driven by progressive social norms. Some centrist or classical‑liberal writers also use the term to argue that public discourse has become overly punitive. In contrast, marginalized groups and progressive activists rarely use the phrase, viewing social consequences as accountability rather than suppression. Overall, the term is most common among groups who perceive a loss of cultural authority or feel their traditional viewpoints are being challenged.
Whichever way you phrase it, the use of social consequences to force others to conform to your own worldview/social norms is a thing. Calling it “accountability” when done by one set of people and “bullying” when done by another (such as in the OP, for example) is just a way to say it’s fine and dandy to do it against the “wrong” things, but not against the “right” ones.
Traditional viewpoints have to be challenged.
But progressive ones don’t?
But why does a teenage boy need to be held accountable for wearing a dress to his prom? "Accountability" suggests wrongdoing. Nobody has been harmed by someone wearing a dress.
The way you switch from “wrongdoing” to “harm” reveals your underlying assumption. Not everybody agrees with that assumption. Why should “wrongdoing” only mean “causing harm”? More to the point in the context of this thread, what right do you have to insist that your underlying assumptions should define the parameters of the whole discussion?
In the terms of the OP, you’re claiming to believe that all shapes and sizes of pegs should be able to fit into the “society” hole, but you’re deliberately shaping that hole to exclude any pegs that you don’t like.
I'm confused. Why would wrongdoing mean something that doesn't cause any harm? Why would something harmless be included in wrongdoing? I'm not being facetious, I'm sincerely confused as to how something harmless could be considered to be wrongdoing in the first place. To me wrongdoing and causing harm are synonymous with each other on an ontological level; I would consider "wrongdoing" to mean something inherently wrong, not just something that you disagree with or personally dislike.
An Islamic or Jewish society would likely consider one of their members eating a bacon sandwich and encouraging others to do the same to have committed a wrongdoing, even though it causes no harm to anyone else. Do you think their social norms are wrong and that they should instead say that anyone can eat anything they want without suffering any social or religious consequences?
Or what about public nudity? It harms nobody (other than by making them look at something to which they might take offence) - should it be allowed?
Flying a flag doesn’t hurt anyone (again, unless the flag is something they might take offence at), but there’s been a lot of talk over the last few months about it being wrong in at least some cases (or some flags).
There are plenty of other examples of social norms that deem things wrong even though they harm nobody.
Someone who disapproves of eating pork so much that they think it should earn a punishment doesn't believe that "it causes no harm to anyone else". It's very common for observant Muslims and Jewish people (particularly in Muslim and Jewish majority areas) to believe that pork is actively bad for you, to varying degrees. Non-pork bacon is super common in Muslim and Jewish areas, so there would be no problem with a bacon sandwich made with that - the issue is with the pork, not the dish of a bacon sandwich. To be clear, I don't believe that anyone should be punished for eating a (pork) bacon sandwich, but accusing Jewish and Muslim people of essentially having cognitive dissonance over the effects of eating pork is a bit weird imo.
I do think that public nudity should be legal, and indeed many major US cities have specific laws legalising public nudity on the basis of equality and personal expression. I don't believe it should be illegal to simply be existing in your own body. Nude bodies are just bodies and not harmful.
Flying a particular flag in order to eg racially harass somebody is clearly causing harm.
Intimidation is a form of harm, which covers some instances of public nudity (particularly flashing) and most instances of hanging flags from lampposts.
Yes, I should say that although I believe in legalising public nudity it doesn't apply to things like flashing which are intended to harm others.
I agree it’s not a perfect model, and situational ethics are a thing - but what you account as wrongdoing, and as harm, depend fundamentally on the premises you are operating from and it is very possible to talk past each other if there is no consensus in the discourse.
It doesn’t help when some people assert that their premises are inherently “higher” than others, either.
Someone who disapproves of eating pork so much that they think it should earn a punishment doesn't believe that "it causes no harm to anyone else". It's very common for observant Muslims and Jewish people (particularly in Muslim and Jewish majority areas) to believe that pork is actively bad for you, to varying degrees.
It would still only be bad for the one eating it though.
Besides, if it’s ok for them to be against pork because they believe it’s harmful (especially if they believe it’s harmful in a spiritual sense rather than a physical one) then why isn’t it ok for someone else to be against other things they believe are harmful?
To be clear, I don't believe that anyone should be punished for eating a (pork) bacon sandwich, but accusing Jewish and Muslim people of essentially having cognitive dissonance over the effects of eating pork is a bit weird imo.
Who said anything about them having cognitive dissonance? I was giving examples of non-harmful things that can nevertheless be considered wrong according to the social norms of certain societies or cultures.
Someone who disapproves of eating pork so much that they think it should earn a punishment doesn't believe that "it causes no harm to anyone else". It's very common for observant Muslims and Jewish people (particularly in Muslim and Jewish majority areas) to believe that pork is actively bad for you, to varying degrees.
It would still only be bad for the one eating it though.
Besides, if it’s ok for them to be against pork because they believe it’s harmful (especially if they believe it’s harmful in a spiritual sense rather than a physical one) then why isn’t it ok for someone else to be against other things they believe are harmful?
To be clear, I don't believe that anyone should be punished for eating a (pork) bacon sandwich, but accusing Jewish and Muslim people of essentially having cognitive dissonance over the effects of eating pork is a bit weird imo.
Who said anything about them having cognitive dissonance? I was giving examples of non-harmful things that can nevertheless be considered wrong according to the social norms of certain societies or cultures.
I said that it's fine for Muslims or Jewish people to be against eating pork, but I also said that nobody should be punished for eating pork. In the original example of the boy wearing a prom dress, the comments in question involved advocating punishing the boy for doing this. That's the problem, not somebody not personally wanting to wear a dress.
I brought up cognitive dissonance because it seemed like you were suggesting that Muslims and Jewish people know that eating pork isn't harmful but oppose it anyway - apologies if you weren't trying to suggest that.
I know people who I can't talk openly about because they got kids who are trying to get medical care for transitioning, and the state government says it's "child abuse" even though the doctor OKed it and every responsible authority on mental health understands that it's in the child's best interest. Honestly, these are folks I know. The kids are fine.
But a bunch of Christian conservatives in the state house and said that this medical care is child abuse, so I feel like I have to be super cagey about this story in public because I don't want the state to go after my friends and their kid.
@WhimsicalChristian , the folks being censored on facebook were engaging in willful lies about a viral infection during a pandemic that killed at least a dozen people I know.
I'm not lying. That's personal and the way that the political right wing in this country has shoved its fingers in its ears and closed its eyes to the suffering wrought by the pandemic, seeing nothing but thwarted greed, really blows my mind as a faithful Christian.
I don't need google. And I have enough sense to shun AI. Got anything else?
So you approve of the censorship.
Point made.
So, the argument requires eliminating all human compassion from the situation, every scrap of context, every datum of scientific knowledge in the interest of scoring a logical point for one's political "team."
Yes, this is why I'm not a conservative. I think that has been demonstrated here rather nicely.
Point of fact, there are lots of Jewish cultures that are ok with gentiles that don't follow Jewish codes. Jewish cultures have a long history of working with Gentiles when convenient to get around various legalities, and it depends on the practitioner.
Islamic societies vary, but I believe there's a ruling in the Quran for "people of the book."
Every culture has a version of this - including ours - and the argument of "the tolerant" versus "the intolerant" runs down the middle of every single religion.
And that's what I think is the right versus left right now. The right chooses fundamentalist uniformity and "fear of the other," and the left chooses tolerance. It seems like even some "liberals" are terrified of "live and let live."
I see women wearing hijabs all the time at my son's school. They don't scare me. I'm more scared of my possible fears scaring them. That's to me how you show kindness. Mind your own business.
FWIW and I may get some stick for this, but I think there are threats to civil liberties from both right and left and vigilance is required.
That doesn't mean signing up for Musk's toxic tweets nor accepting the shit on the inappropriately named 'Truth Social'.
Still less does it mean banning the teaching of evolution in 'Bible-belt' US States or removing particular books from public libraries or complaining about the number of people of colour in TV adverts - all of which seem to be emanating from the populist right as we speak.
It's one thing for @WhimsicalChristian to point the finger at 'the left' without removing the dirty great big plank from the eyes of those closer to his end of the political spectrum.
I've said before, at the least the right are honest about it.
I think if you consider people your enemies simply because they have different preferences and lifestyle to you, then you've got a problem. And that's the issue I was getting at in the OP; forgetting the incident in question and looking at the wider issue, it's about whether, when you encounter people very different to you, your response is "you should be more like me".
But that's exactly what the left does too. It says "you should be more like me" on x,yz.
Ok. One more time on this false equivalency.
Suppose you have a pub. It sells lots of lager, but also some bitter, some wine and some whisky. Most people drink lager.
The conservative "You should be more like me" is "you bitter, wine and whisky drinkers are weird. You should drink lager like everyone else!"
The liberal "You should be more like me" is "why are you so bothered what other people drink? It doesn't affect you. You should be more like me and live and let live".
There is a qualitative difference there.
Nope. Don't see it. Don't see why the conservatives would complain. It's just a different drink. No harm done.
It was an analogy. The things we're talking about conservatives objecting to are analogous to different drinks because they do not impinge on the complainer. Like dressing unconventionally or being gay or trans or Muslim or any of the other things they get agitated about.
Well like I said previously, they do cause harm, according to conservatives. It's just you that don't think they do.
So the analogy doesn't work.
But do you really think a conservative would complain about someone ordering a different drink?
Maybe in your neck of the woods (sounds very backwater that example) but not in mine.
I know people who I can't talk openly about because they got kids who are trying to get medical care for transitioning, and the state government says it's "child abuse" even though the doctor OKed it and every responsible authority on mental health understands that it's in the child's best interest. Honestly, these are folks I know. The kids are fine.
But a bunch of Christian conservatives in the state house and said that this medical care is child abuse, so I feel like I have to be super cagey about this story in public because I don't want the state to go after my friends and their kid.
@WhimsicalChristian , the folks being censored on facebook were engaging in willful lies about a viral infection during a pandemic that killed at least a dozen people I know.
I'm not lying. That's personal and the way that the political right wing in this country has shoved its fingers in its ears and closed its eyes to the suffering wrought by the pandemic, seeing nothing but thwarted greed, really blows my mind as a faithful Christian.
I don't need google. And I have enough sense to shun AI. Got anything else?
So you approve of the censorship.
Point made.
So, the argument requires eliminating all human compassion from the situation, every scrap of context, every datum of scientific knowledge in the interest of scoring a logical point for one's political "team."
Yes, this is why I'm not a conservative. I think that has been demonstrated here rather nicely.
Not at all. I was requested to provide an example of left wing censorship. I did and you agreed.
There are others but they are censored here (being a left wing establishment) so I won't go there.
It's the paradox of tolerance you initiated. There are things the left will not tolerate, as is their right. And that's fine.
It's just not fine when you claim it's only conservatives that do that.
Getting back to the OP, it's only the conservatives that can't "live and let live", and force people into holes they don't fit into. Not so.
@WhimsicalChristian please note that trolling would be considered a violation of the ship's first commandment. Also, any discussion of ship policy, such as what we are and are not willing to provide a platform for, belongs in Styx.
My point is, they’re ok with Gentiles not following Jewish social norms because Gentiles aren’t part of Jewish society. That’s a very different issue to people transgressing their own society’s norms.
My point is, they’re ok with Gentiles not following Jewish social norms because Gentiles aren’t part of Jewish society. That’s a very different issue to people transgressing their own society’s norms.
I don't know much about Jewish communities, but I suspect they're not uniform.
I know more about British Muslims, and coincidentally I am currently in a place with one of the highest populations of Muslims in the country.
There are halal butchers and restaurants. But there are plenty of places to buy bacon sandwiches and I don't see any evidence of spies checking the queue in Greggs to see who is buying pork in the morning.
I have known various Muslims, some who are even atheists. Many keep the food restrictions, some are not worried about it.
What does this tell us? Maybe let's not imagine that cultural groups are monoliths? That there are various kinds of belonging, which range from highly religious to lapsed and everything between?
Whilst there are some extreme Muslims, in general the British way is to let other people get on with it.
I imagine it is similar in Jewish cultural circles.
Someone who disapproves of eating pork so much that they think it should earn a punishment doesn't believe that "it causes no harm to anyone else". It's very common for observant Muslims and Jewish people (particularly in Muslim and Jewish majority areas) to believe that pork is actively bad for you, to varying degrees.
It would still only be bad for the one eating it though.
Besides, if it’s ok for them to be against pork because they believe it’s harmful (especially if they believe it’s harmful in a spiritual sense rather than a physical one) then why isn’t it ok for someone else to be against other things they believe are harmful?
To be clear, I don't believe that anyone should be punished for eating a (pork) bacon sandwich, but accusing Jewish and Muslim people of essentially having cognitive dissonance over the effects of eating pork is a bit weird imo.
Who said anything about them having cognitive dissonance? I was giving examples of non-harmful things that can nevertheless be considered wrong according to the social norms of certain societies or cultures.
I said that it's fine for Muslims or Jewish people to be against eating pork, but I also said that nobody should be punished for eating pork.
This disagreement may well hinge around what you consider to be “punishment”. No longer being considered in good standing within the society? Not being allowed to go to certain places, or perform certain tasks? Not all punishments are penal.
I brought up cognitive dissonance because it seemed like you were suggesting that Muslims and Jewish people know that eating pork isn't harmful but oppose it anyway - apologies if you weren't trying to suggest that.
The implication, presumably, is that you think those who complain about a boy in a dress know that it isn’t harmful but oppose it anyway. I’m not so sure about that.
My point is, they’re ok with Gentiles not following Jewish social norms because Gentiles aren’t part of Jewish society. That’s a very different issue to people transgressing their own society’s norms.
My point is, they’re ok with Gentiles not following Jewish social norms because Gentiles aren’t part of Jewish society. That’s a very different issue to people transgressing their own society’s norms.
This.
Nope, still don’t see the relevance. It’s as if I’d said German people aren’t Spanish while discussing Spanish cultural expectations, and you’d countered by saying they’re both European. I mean, yes, ok, but that’s not really relevant to the distinction I was talking about, you know?
Of all the things on this thread, I was not expecting a comment that Gentiles aren’t Jewish, and therefore are not expected to follow Jewish social norms in the same way that Jewish people are, to be controversial.
Maybe we should take another step back and discuss what we actually mean by “society”? Or “culture” for that matter, since as far as I’m concerned the two are synonymous for the purposes of discussing stuff like social norms.
Well like I said previously, they do cause harm, according to conservatives. It's just you that don't think they do.
You have said it causes harm, but you haven’t actually demonstrated how it causes harm or exactly what the harm is. When you rest your case on “because I said it does,” you shouldn’t be surprised that others aren’t convinced.
Comments
Someone who disapproves of eating pork so much that they think it should earn a punishment doesn't believe that "it causes no harm to anyone else". It's very common for observant Muslims and Jewish people (particularly in Muslim and Jewish majority areas) to believe that pork is actively bad for you, to varying degrees. Non-pork bacon is super common in Muslim and Jewish areas, so there would be no problem with a bacon sandwich made with that - the issue is with the pork, not the dish of a bacon sandwich. To be clear, I don't believe that anyone should be punished for eating a (pork) bacon sandwich, but accusing Jewish and Muslim people of essentially having cognitive dissonance over the effects of eating pork is a bit weird imo.
I do think that public nudity should be legal, and indeed many major US cities have specific laws legalising public nudity on the basis of equality and personal expression. I don't believe it should be illegal to simply be existing in your own body. Nude bodies are just bodies and not harmful.
Flying a particular flag in order to eg racially harass somebody is clearly causing harm.
Yes, I should say that although I believe in legalising public nudity it doesn't apply to things like flashing which are intended to harm others.
"Were" is also not "are", is it?
You said that there ARE threats to civil liberties from the left, suggesting something current and ongoing.
Show me anyone in, say, the parliament (or equivalent) of any western democracy advocating Stalinism then we'll talk.
It doesn’t help when some people assert that their premises are inherently “higher” than others, either.
It would still only be bad for the one eating it though.
Besides, if it’s ok for them to be against pork because they believe it’s harmful (especially if they believe it’s harmful in a spiritual sense rather than a physical one) then why isn’t it ok for someone else to be against other things they believe are harmful?
Who said anything about them having cognitive dissonance? I was giving examples of non-harmful things that can nevertheless be considered wrong according to the social norms of certain societies or cultures.
I said that it's fine for Muslims or Jewish people to be against eating pork, but I also said that nobody should be punished for eating pork. In the original example of the boy wearing a prom dress, the comments in question involved advocating punishing the boy for doing this. That's the problem, not somebody not personally wanting to wear a dress.
I brought up cognitive dissonance because it seemed like you were suggesting that Muslims and Jewish people know that eating pork isn't harmful but oppose it anyway - apologies if you weren't trying to suggest that.
So, the argument requires eliminating all human compassion from the situation, every scrap of context, every datum of scientific knowledge in the interest of scoring a logical point for one's political "team."
Yes, this is why I'm not a conservative. I think that has been demonstrated here rather nicely.
Point of fact, there are lots of Jewish cultures that are ok with gentiles that don't follow Jewish codes. Jewish cultures have a long history of working with Gentiles when convenient to get around various legalities, and it depends on the practitioner.
Islamic societies vary, but I believe there's a ruling in the Quran for "people of the book."
Every culture has a version of this - including ours - and the argument of "the tolerant" versus "the intolerant" runs down the middle of every single religion.
And that's what I think is the right versus left right now. The right chooses fundamentalist uniformity and "fear of the other," and the left chooses tolerance. It seems like even some "liberals" are terrified of "live and let live."
I see women wearing hijabs all the time at my son's school. They don't scare me. I'm more scared of my possible fears scaring them. That's to me how you show kindness. Mind your own business.
Well like I said previously, they do cause harm, according to conservatives. It's just you that don't think they do.
So the analogy doesn't work.
But do you really think a conservative would complain about someone ordering a different drink?
Maybe in your neck of the woods (sounds very backwater that example) but not in mine.
Not at all. I was requested to provide an example of left wing censorship. I did and you agreed.
There are others but they are censored here (being a left wing establishment) so I won't go there.
It's the paradox of tolerance you initiated. There are things the left will not tolerate, as is their right. And that's fine.
It's just not fine when you claim it's only conservatives that do that.
Getting back to the OP, it's only the conservatives that can't "live and let live", and force people into holes they don't fit into. Not so.
Go and read Louise's excellent Epiphanies thread.
As for the irony of someone from Australia accusing someone from the UK of being 'back-water' ...
Now, that's a joke. I'm teasing there.
But you do rather seem to have missed the point KarlLB was making.
Doublethink, Admin
But how are they with Jewish people who don’t follow those codes?
Given the number of Jewish people who don't keep Kosher? I think they manage.
I don't know much about Jewish communities, but I suspect they're not uniform.
I know more about British Muslims, and coincidentally I am currently in a place with one of the highest populations of Muslims in the country.
There are halal butchers and restaurants. But there are plenty of places to buy bacon sandwiches and I don't see any evidence of spies checking the queue in Greggs to see who is buying pork in the morning.
I have known various Muslims, some who are even atheists. Many keep the food restrictions, some are not worried about it.
What does this tell us? Maybe let's not imagine that cultural groups are monoliths? That there are various kinds of belonging, which range from highly religious to lapsed and everything between?
Whilst there are some extreme Muslims, in general the British way is to let other people get on with it.
I imagine it is similar in Jewish cultural circles.
This disagreement may well hinge around what you consider to be “punishment”. No longer being considered in good standing within the society? Not being allowed to go to certain places, or perform certain tasks? Not all punishments are penal.
The implication, presumably, is that you think those who complain about a boy in a dress know that it isn’t harmful but oppose it anyway. I’m not so sure about that.
I’m genuinely puzzled as to which part of my posts you think that’s rebutting.
This.
Expand on this particular harm, please.
Nope, still don’t see the relevance. It’s as if I’d said German people aren’t Spanish while discussing Spanish cultural expectations, and you’d countered by saying they’re both European. I mean, yes, ok, but that’s not really relevant to the distinction I was talking about, you know?
Of all the things on this thread, I was not expecting a comment that Gentiles aren’t Jewish, and therefore are not expected to follow Jewish social norms in the same way that Jewish people are, to be controversial.
Maybe we should take another step back and discuss what we actually mean by “society”? Or “culture” for that matter, since as far as I’m concerned the two are synonymous for the purposes of discussing stuff like social norms.
Why? This is a very common belief amongst religious groups that abstain from pork (including the Christians that do so).
Doublethink, Admin