I think there's quite a big difference between Canterbury Christchurch, which is an Anglican institution and where I think the Anglican structure still has considerable influence, and Aberdeen University. The latter was an ancient university but the current structure was inherited from an amalgamation of the Roman Catholic original and a nearby Protestant competitor. Today I am reasonably sure that there is no direct church influence on the running of the university.
It feels like Oxford and Cambridge have a much more complex historical association with church authorities than most of the others. If I recall there are something like 120 universities in the UK of which religious bodies are in some sense "in charge" in less than 30.
Two of ours went to their state school's sixth form. It was indeed referred to as "school". Not sure really what else we'd call it.
6th form? When I was at 6th form attached to my school (I've done both that type and the big centralised campus type) everyone was very eager to emphasise that it wasn't school.
My experience matches @KarlLB's: we all called it "school", and didn't need a separate word for the same building we'd been going to for the last several years, or the same teachers. (The norm, at least at my school, was that the teachers who taught A-levels also taught GCSE classes. Just teaching A-level classes wouldn't fill a working day.)
Our teachers were keen (as I imagine yours were) to emphasize that A-levels were a step up in academic rigor, and that a greater level of independence and self-reliance was expected of A-level students. We also had more relaxed rules about arriving and leaving the school, about independent study in the library, and so on. I suppose one could emphasize those sorts of things by saying that "this is not school any more", but given that there was a large sign that said "school" out the front, and that the staff were all the same people who had been teaching us for the past few years, they chose not to.
At most American colleges and universities, an undergraduate does not have to declare a major until towards the end of the sophomore year. However, many undergraduates do have a major in mind when they enter college. And it is not that unusual for an undergraduate to change their major somewhere in their college career. For instance, my son entered college seeking a music major; but then, he transferred another school and starteed out in drama. After a year of that, he eventually ended up in religious studies. It took an extra year for him to complete his baccalaureate, though. When you think about it, all of these moved him to becoming an ordained minister.
At most American colleges and universities, an undergraduate does not have to declare a major until towards the end of the sophomore year. However, many undergraduates do have a major in mind when they enter college.
Even in colleges/universities where the major is formally declared sophomore year, an informal choice is often made with a student’s academic advisor, if for no other reason that to get some prerequisites out of the way. Both of my kids “changed majors” before formally declaring a major.
And even in colleges/universities where the major is formally declared sophomore year, some majors—particularly some majors that fall outside the College of Arts and Sciences (or whatever name it goes by)—do have to be declared at the outset. Separate admission the college or school, in addition to admission to the university, may also be required. I was admitted to my university, but then I had to apply (and audition) for admission to the university’s school of music, and I had to choose my major as part of that process. A great-niece has been going through exactly the same process the last few months.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour. Attending St Mary's Twickenham and attending a small private RC college in the US are very different experiences. I attended the University of Winchester, which is an Anglican foundation - it didn't impact the student experience at all beyond having a nice chapel. Aside from that it was identical to any other UK uni experience.
I think there's quite a big difference between Canterbury Christchurch, which is an Anglican institution and where I think the Anglican structure still has considerable influence, and Aberdeen University. The latter was an ancient university but the current structure was inherited from an amalgamation of the Roman Catholic original and a nearby Protestant competitor. Today I am reasonably sure that there is no direct church influence on the running of the university.
It feels like Oxford and Cambridge have a much more complex historical association with church authorities than most of the others. If I recall there are something like 120 universities in the UK of which religious bodies are in some sense "in charge" in less than 30.
There is probably not very much Anglican influence on the actual students of Canterbury Christchurch unless they are an enthusiastic chapel member. UK public universities are not like religious US universities even if there is a religious foundation.
At most American colleges and universities, an undergraduate does not have to declare a major until towards the end of the sophomore year. However, many undergraduates do have a major in mind when they enter college.
Even in colleges/universities where the major is formally declared sophomore year, an informal choice is often made with a student’s academic advisor, if for no other reason that to get some prerequisites out of the way. Both of my kids “changed majors” before formally declaring a major.
And even in colleges/universities where the major is formally declared sophomore year, some majors—particularly some majors that fall outside the College of Arts and Sciences (or whatever name it goes by)—do have to be declared at the outset. Separate admission the college or school, in addition to admission to the university, may also be required. I was admitted to my university, but then I had to apply (and audition) for admission to the university’s school of music, and I had to choose my major as part of that process. A great-niece has been going through exactly the same process the last few months.
The thing that caused my son to change from being a music major was piano/keyboard. He really did not have a good teacher. She was dropped after the first year. Then too, I think he was chasing a girl who had gone to the school he transferred to and was a drama major. Once that relationship ended, he just found interest in religious studies. Curiously, though, his senior project was co-writing the musical score for that school's production of Aladdin I also think he did a religious studies project, but I cannot remember the title. At graduation he was interviewed by a local newspaper reporter who asked him what his plans were after graduation. Without hesitation, he announced he was going to Palestine. He spent a year there.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour.
Just to be clear, there are lots of church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US where chapel attendance isn’t mandatory, where there are few if any religious-based rules of behavior, and where the student body is very diverse in terms of religion. I don’t have numbers, but I’d be very surprised if the majority of church-affiliated colleges and universities have mandatory chapel attendance or religious-based rules of behavior. I did find “5 Common Myths About Catholic College Life, Busted!,” which says:
Although church services are talked about and promoted often in a Catholic environment, most colleges don't require you to attend any regular church services on campus. It's expected for a school’s Mission and Ministry Office to promote their services, but they do this because they're open and accepting of all students attending Catholic mass, regardless of faith. However, if you choose not to attend, you definitely won’t be left out or ostracized for it. There will be other students who aren’t Catholic and won’t attend church on campus either, plus many other opportunities to get involved in other ways.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
Technically, attendance at religious services were not required at the Lutheran schools I attended, but there was definitely a subtle expectation, though.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour.
Just to be clear, there are lots of church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US where chapel attendance isn’t mandatory, where there are few if any religious-based rules of behavior, and where the student body is very diverse in terms of religion. I don’t have numbers, but I’d be very surprised if the majority of church-affiliated colleges and universities have mandatory chapel attendance or religious-based rules of behavior. I did find “5 Common Myths About Catholic College Life, Busted!,” which says:
Although church services are talked about and promoted often in a Catholic environment, most colleges don't require you to attend any regular church services on campus. It's expected for a school’s Mission and Ministry Office to promote their services, but they do this because they're open and accepting of all students attending Catholic mass, regardless of faith. However, if you choose not to attend, you definitely won’t be left out or ostracized for it. There will be other students who aren’t Catholic and won’t attend church on campus either, plus many other opportunities to get involved in other ways.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
I wasn't trying to say that it applied to all US religious colleges, just that it's a phenomenon that does not exist at all in the UK.
Sure there are are no religious HE institutions in the UK ( a link to the Cathedral group which covers Anglican and Roman Catholic Universities in the UK). Actually, it is worse than that. Religious foundations that are Universities to my knowledge in the UK: Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews, and, also highly probable, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Durham. Anything before 1800 is likely to be religious in its foundation. St Andrews even has a Papal Bull for its foundation, unfortunately from the wrong lineage, but still
Havard, Princeton, Yale and Columbia were all formed as seminaries, but outside their respective divinity schools there's very little that's explicitly religious about the institutions.
There is probably not very much Anglican influence on the actual students of Canterbury Christchurch unless they are an enthusiastic chapel member. UK public universities are not like religious US universities even if there is a religious foundation.
Think Christ's College in Christchurch ( Aotearoa/NZ) may beg to differ.
There is probably not very much Anglican influence on the actual students of Canterbury Christchurch unless they are an enthusiastic chapel member. UK public universities are not like religious US universities even if there is a religious foundation.
Think Christ's College in Christchurch ( Aotearoa/NZ) may beg to differ.
I daresay it does, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the experience at an unrelated UK institution.
To tag onto what @Nick Tamen said about church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US: many years I had an interview for a position as a professor at Holy Cross in Massachusetts, a small liberal arts college affiliated with the Jesuits. I asked about what the affiliation meant and was told it was essentially meaningless; I got the impression they were worried that religious affiliation would put me off.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour.
Just to be clear, there are lots of church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US where chapel attendance isn’t mandatory, where there are few if any religious-based rules of behavior, and where the student body is very diverse in terms of religion. I don’t have numbers, but I’d be very surprised if the majority of church-affiliated colleges and universities have mandatory chapel attendance or religious-based rules of behavior. I did find “5 Common Myths About Catholic College Life, Busted!,” which says:
Although church services are talked about and promoted often in a Catholic environment, most colleges don't require you to attend any regular church services on campus. It's expected for a school’s Mission and Ministry Office to promote their services, but they do this because they're open and accepting of all students attending Catholic mass, regardless of faith. However, if you choose not to attend, you definitely won’t be left out or ostracized for it. There will be other students who aren’t Catholic and won’t attend church on campus either, plus many other opportunities to get involved in other ways.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
I wasn't trying to say that it applied to all US religious colleges, just that it's a phenomenon that does not exist at all in the UK.
I get that, but the way you said what you said could easily give rise to the impression that things like mandatory chapel and religious-based rules for behavior are more common at US colleges and universities than they actually are. Even this—
Attending St Mary's Twickenham and attending a small private RC college in the US are very different experiences.
—could be misleading. I know nothing of St Mary’s Twickenham, but most small Catholic colleges in the US might have a whiff of Catholic heritage and “Catholic culture,” but that’s about it. At Jesuit colleges you might also note a particular approach, at least historically, to teaching. But small Catholic colleges are not as thoroughly religious as what you wrote might suggest, so I was just trying to clarify.
Many formally church related colleges in the US have moved away from their original church affiliation. My son went to Lewis and Clark College near Portland OR (Never tell their alumni their school was in Portland). At one time they were affiliated with the Presbyterian Synod of Oregan, but the Synod severed its ties in 1966, and the school became independent. Still has a beautiful chapel in the center of the campus, but they it is for all faiths.
Many formally church related colleges in the US have moved away from their original church affiliation.
The nature of the affiliation colleges and universities have with churches has changed as well, at least for Protestant (including Episcopal*) colleges and universities. (I can’t comment on Catholic colleges and universities, which often have been connected to religious orders.)
In the past, church-affiliation for Protestant colleges and universities typically meant financial support from the relevant church body, together the right of the church body to appoint all or a majority of the college or university’s board of trustees. This gave church bodies a fair amount of direct control over the colleges and universities.
In my experience, both of those kinds of relationships have largely disappeared; at least they have in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), and I’ve seen similar changes in Baptist and United Methodist colleges and universities near me. Colleges and universities may retain ties of some kind with church bodies, but those ties typically don’t involve any church control.
For example, there are still around 50 colleges or universities that maintain formal affiliation with the PC(USA) through the Association of Presbyterian Colleges and Universities (APCU). The nature of that affiliation is spelled out in a covenant—Presbyterians do love covenants—between the APCU and a General Assembly-level agency of the PC(USA).
* Yes, I know whether to call the Episcopal Church “Protestant” or not is a matter of debate. For purposes of the post, I’m going with the fact that when Episcopal colleges and universities in the US were founded, the formal name of the church with which they were affiliated was the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour.
Just to be clear, there are lots of church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US where chapel attendance isn’t mandatory, where there are few if any religious-based rules of behavior, and where the student body is very diverse in terms of religion. I don’t have numbers, but I’d be very surprised if the majority of church-affiliated colleges and universities have mandatory chapel attendance or religious-based rules of behavior. I did find “5 Common Myths About Catholic College Life, Busted!,” which says:
Although church services are talked about and promoted often in a Catholic environment, most colleges don't require you to attend any regular church services on campus. It's expected for a school’s Mission and Ministry Office to promote their services, but they do this because they're open and accepting of all students attending Catholic mass, regardless of faith. However, if you choose not to attend, you definitely won’t be left out or ostracized for it. There will be other students who aren’t Catholic and won’t attend church on campus either, plus many other opportunities to get involved in other ways.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
I wasn't trying to say that it applied to all US religious colleges, just that it's a phenomenon that does not exist at all in the UK.
I get that, but the way you said what you said could easily give rise to the impression that things like mandatory chapel and religious-based rules for behavior are more common at US colleges and universities than they actually are. Even this—
Attending St Mary's Twickenham and attending a small private RC college in the US are very different experiences.
—could be misleading. I know nothing of St Mary’s Twickenham, but most small Catholic colleges in the US might have a whiff of Catholic heritage and “Catholic culture,” but that’s about it. At Jesuit colleges you might also note a particular approach, at least historically, to teaching. But small Catholic colleges are not as thoroughly religious as what you wrote might suggest, so I was just trying to clarify.
Just by the by I can think of at least 3 highly conservative RC colleges in the USA, to wit: Franciscan in Steubenville Ohio, Christendom in Front Royal VA and Ave Maria in Florida. Scary stuff if you read the websites. There is another in Wyoming somewhere whose name escapes me. Maybe a drop in the bucket as Catholic tertiary institutions go but worrisome nonetheless.
@Jengie Jon there aren't religious PRIVATE universities in the UK in the way there are in the US, where eg chapel attendance is mandatory and there are religiously-based rules of behaviour.
Just to be clear, there are lots of church-affiliated colleges and universities in the US where chapel attendance isn’t mandatory, where there are few if any religious-based rules of behavior, and where the student body is very diverse in terms of religion. I don’t have numbers, but I’d be very surprised if the majority of church-affiliated colleges and universities have mandatory chapel attendance or religious-based rules of behavior. I did find “5 Common Myths About Catholic College Life, Busted!,” which says:
Although church services are talked about and promoted often in a Catholic environment, most colleges don't require you to attend any regular church services on campus. It's expected for a school’s Mission and Ministry Office to promote their services, but they do this because they're open and accepting of all students attending Catholic mass, regardless of faith. However, if you choose not to attend, you definitely won’t be left out or ostracized for it. There will be other students who aren’t Catholic and won’t attend church on campus either, plus many other opportunities to get involved in other ways.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
I wasn't trying to say that it applied to all US religious colleges, just that it's a phenomenon that does not exist at all in the UK.
I get that, but the way you said what you said could easily give rise to the impression that things like mandatory chapel and religious-based rules for behavior are more common at US colleges and universities than they actually are. Even this—
Attending St Mary's Twickenham and attending a small private RC college in the US are very different experiences.
—could be misleading. I know nothing of St Mary’s Twickenham, but most small Catholic colleges in the US might have a whiff of Catholic heritage and “Catholic culture,” but that’s about it. At Jesuit colleges you might also note a particular approach, at least historically, to teaching. But small Catholic colleges are not as thoroughly religious as what you wrote might suggest, so I was just trying to clarify.
Just by the by I can think of at least 3 highly conservative RC colleges in the USA, to wit: Franciscan in Steubenville Ohio, Christendom in Front Royal VA and Ave Maria in Florida. Scary stuff if you read the websites. There is another in Wyoming somewhere whose name escapes me. Maybe a drop in the bucket as Catholic tertiary institutions go but worrisome nonetheless.
Absolutely, those are very conservative places. But yes, they are a drop in the bucket, given the 200+ Catholic colleges and universities in the US. The schools you mention are the outliers, not the norm.
Yes, quite. As far as I am aware there is only one such college in the land of Oz, with an enrolment of about 100 undergrads. I am reliably informed that about 60% are from homeschooling backgrounds. The multicampus Notre Dame and Australian Catholic Universities are pretty mainstream despite the efforts of their governing bodies. Note population of Oz is now 20 something million as opposed to 300 million in the US which indicates that the demand for a conservative Catholic education ( outside of seminaries) is very low.
I went to an FE college and did catering. I got City and Guilds qualifications. Later I went back and did Open college at the same place to get more formally academic qualifications. In 2002 I graduated from Open University with a BA Hons. I really enjoyed studying as an adult. Apparently lots of teachers prefer teaching adults because they want to be there (mostly).
Comments
It feels like Oxford and Cambridge have a much more complex historical association with church authorities than most of the others. If I recall there are something like 120 universities in the UK of which religious bodies are in some sense "in charge" in less than 30.
My experience matches @KarlLB's: we all called it "school", and didn't need a separate word for the same building we'd been going to for the last several years, or the same teachers. (The norm, at least at my school, was that the teachers who taught A-levels also taught GCSE classes. Just teaching A-level classes wouldn't fill a working day.)
Our teachers were keen (as I imagine yours were) to emphasize that A-levels were a step up in academic rigor, and that a greater level of independence and self-reliance was expected of A-level students. We also had more relaxed rules about arriving and leaving the school, about independent study in the library, and so on. I suppose one could emphasize those sorts of things by saying that "this is not school any more", but given that there was a large sign that said "school" out the front, and that the staff were all the same people who had been teaching us for the past few years, they chose not to.
And even in colleges/universities where the major is formally declared sophomore year, some majors—particularly some majors that fall outside the College of Arts and Sciences (or whatever name it goes by)—do have to be declared at the outset. Separate admission the college or school, in addition to admission to the university, may also be required. I was admitted to my university, but then I had to apply (and audition) for admission to the university’s school of music, and I had to choose my major as part of that process. A great-niece has been going through exactly the same process the last few months.
There is probably not very much Anglican influence on the actual students of Canterbury Christchurch unless they are an enthusiastic chapel member. UK public universities are not like religious US universities even if there is a religious foundation.
The thing that caused my son to change from being a music major was piano/keyboard. He really did not have a good teacher. She was dropped after the first year. Then too, I think he was chasing a girl who had gone to the school he transferred to and was a drama major. Once that relationship ended, he just found interest in religious studies. Curiously, though, his senior project was co-writing the musical score for that school's production of Aladdin I also think he did a religious studies project, but I cannot remember the title. At graduation he was interviewed by a local newspaper reporter who asked him what his plans were after graduation. Without hesitation, he announced he was going to Palestine. He spent a year there.
That description matches what I’m familiar with when it comes to Presbyterian, United Methodist and Episcopal colleges and universities.
I would say that your description—mandatory chapel and religious-based rules of behavior—apply to a relatively small proportion, pretty much uniformly very conservative, of church-affiliated colleges and universities.
Sorry, I think that might be my fault. I don't think it fits here either, but hey ho.
After discussion backstage, we agree with you - transferring Purgwards, enjoy the ride !
Doublethink, Admin
I wasn't trying to say that it applied to all US religious colleges, just that it's a phenomenon that does not exist at all in the UK.
Havard, Princeton, Yale and Columbia were all formed as seminaries, but outside their respective divinity schools there's very little that's explicitly religious about the institutions.
Think Christ's College in Christchurch ( Aotearoa/NZ) may beg to differ.
I daresay it does, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the experience at an unrelated UK institution.
In the past, church-affiliation for Protestant colleges and universities typically meant financial support from the relevant church body, together the right of the church body to appoint all or a majority of the college or university’s board of trustees. This gave church bodies a fair amount of direct control over the colleges and universities.
In my experience, both of those kinds of relationships have largely disappeared; at least they have in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), and I’ve seen similar changes in Baptist and United Methodist colleges and universities near me. Colleges and universities may retain ties of some kind with church bodies, but those ties typically don’t involve any church control.
For example, there are still around 50 colleges or universities that maintain formal affiliation with the PC(USA) through the Association of Presbyterian Colleges and Universities (APCU). The nature of that affiliation is spelled out in a covenant—Presbyterians do love covenants—between the APCU and a General Assembly-level agency of the PC(USA).
* Yes, I know whether to call the Episcopal Church “Protestant” or not is a matter of debate. For purposes of the post, I’m going with the fact that when Episcopal colleges and universities in the US were founded, the formal name of the church with which they were affiliated was the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America.
Just by the by I can think of at least 3 highly conservative RC colleges in the USA, to wit: Franciscan in Steubenville Ohio, Christendom in Front Royal VA and Ave Maria in Florida. Scary stuff if you read the websites. There is another in Wyoming somewhere whose name escapes me. Maybe a drop in the bucket as Catholic tertiary institutions go but worrisome nonetheless.
FE = Further Education. Primarily what I think in the US would be "trade school", but can also offer traditional academic courses below degree level.
I did my A-Levels at an FE College and later taught A-Levels at another. They usually have a finger in the adult/community education pie as well.