When I first saw the title of this thread I didn't see it was in Eccles and was expecting actions comparable to helping widows and orphans in distress, feeding the hungry, visiting prisoners etc.
This thread makes me think of the old rhyme: Piskie, Piskie, bow and ben’,
On yer knees and up again.
Presbie, Presbie, too proud to bend,
Sit ye doon on man’s chief end.
I don't know the vintage, probably 19th century or early 20th, but does broadly reflect the differences between the Kirk and the SEC in this area. I was flummoxed on first worshipping in the Kirk that the pews were too close to permit kneeling.
I forwarded that to my old friend who was at Knox College in Toronto, and he had heard it from an elderly professor whose version was almost the same:
Piskie Piskie boo an' ben'
Get ye doon an' up again.
Presby Presby, never bend,
Set ye doon on man's chief end.
Am much obliged to you. I hadn't heard it before and will cherish it.
Our host congregation's building has to use "liturgical east," as the altar is in fact at the south end of the building. This was very likely forced on the original builders by the size and shape of the lot. You can tell by the very odd attempts to connect the main worship area to a separate gym and school building on an adjacent lot--the hallways, stairs and elevator have half-floors, as the two buildings were apparently not built with the idea that they'd ever be connected (either originally belonging to different communities, or somehow otherwise impeded). If both lots had been available when the buildings first went up, they could have had true east, not the weird set-up we have now.
When I first saw the title of this thread I didn't see it was in Eccles and was expecting actions comparable to helping widows and orphans in distress, feeding the hungry, visiting prisoners etc.
I did mention those in the OP and made it clear that liturgical actions are no substitute for such things.
This East business rather depends on the orientation of the building, or it's a bit of headology.
That why I was careful to refer to “liturgical east,” which is a thing. The idea that the end of the church with the altar is “the east,” regardless of whether it’s actually east, is reflected in describing Masses where the priest faces the altar rather than the people as ad orientem (“to the east”).
Luth’ran, Luth’ran, stand and sit,
Sing the hymn and ponder it.
Kneel? Well… maybe. If we must.
Trust the Gospel, not our fuss.
Or
Luth’ran, Luth’ran, bend or stand,
Christ alone our chief command.
Kneel if able, sit if sore—
Faith is freedom, not a chore.
As to the placement of the altar in my home congregation, it is the center of the sanctuary.
Which reminds me of the old Baptist rhyme:
I'd rather be a Baptist
With a happy, smiling face
Than a miserable Methodist
And think I'll fall from grace.
We all have our triumphant, sectarian and party-spirit or Pharisaical tendencies.
'Lord, I thank you that I am not like that [Anglican/ Methodist/ Catholic/ Pentecostal ... insert church or denomination of choice] over there.'
My own Tradition is particularly prone to that.
Lord have mercy!
I hasten to add that I find the Ship refreshingly eirenic.
At the risk of adding more physical actions in a worship context whilst neglecting justice, mercy and all the things our Lord emphasised, it occurs to me that 'holy water' is a physical thing we haven't addressed so far.
Or incense come to that.
Or practices like foot-washing or the use of banners.
On the holy water thing, I'm taking a bottle of blessed water from the spring within the Anglican shrine at Walsingham and a bottle from my own parish to a poetry event later today in order to give them to an RC friend.
They asked me to bring some back from an ecumenical pilgrimage there. I couldn't find any in the RC shrine as they were doing some maintenance work in advance of the main pilgrimage season. Perhaps I didn't look hard enough.
My friend is eirenic enough to accept some from Anglican and Orthodox sources.
I'm a bit puzzled when they said they'd run out and hadn't had any for ages as they live almost opposite an historic RC church which one would expect to have holy water on tap as it were.
Still, they are very welcome to have some of mine.
I don't know whether this is 'kosher' for a non-RC but I will often dip my fingers in the holy water stoup and cross myself on my forehead with it on entering a Catholic church.
I've probably done the same in Anglo-Catholic settings.
I do it as a reminder of my baptism and also as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement that God is at work in and through other Christian churches as well as - occasionally my own.
This East business rather depends on the orientation of the building, or it's a bit of headology.
That why I was careful to refer to “liturgical east,” which is a thing. The idea that the end of the church with the altar is “the east,” regardless of whether it’s actually east, is reflected in describing Masses where the priest faces the altar rather than the people as ad orientem (“to the east”).
I think it's a reasonable facsimile in most churches.
Perhaps in the UK. Definitely not in the US.
One persons "thing" is another person's delusion. Which I why I always describe "ad orientem" as "backs to the people."
I describe it as 'turn your back on the congregation, huddle over the altar, and mumble'.
I'm very grateful that except among the most mega-spiky Anglo-Catholics, it seems to have more or less died out. Is it allowed in the Roman mass at all these days?
This East business rather depends on the orientation of the building, or it's a bit of headology.
That why I was careful to refer to “liturgical east,” which is a thing. The idea that the end of the church with the altar is “the east,” regardless of whether it’s actually east, is reflected in describing Masses where the priest faces the altar rather than the people as ad orientem (“to the east”).
I think it's a reasonable facsimile in most churches.
Perhaps in the UK. Definitely not in the US.
One persons "thing" is another person's delusion. Which I why I always describe "ad orientem" as "backs to the people."
I describe it as 'turn your back on the congregation, huddle over the altar, and mumble'.
I'm very grateful that except among the most mega-spiky Anglo-Catholics, it seems to have more or less died out. Is it allowed in the Roman mass at all these days?
Those that use the Tridentine Mass turn their backs to the people. It is rare for those who use the modern Mass, though it is allowed - but not the muttering.
You'd have even more of an issue with the Orthodox @Enoch as our priests not only face the altar but perform some of the rituals and say some of the prayers behind a screen.
Our Bishop insists that clergy are audible when praying within the icon-screen, something that is more apparent in our tiny chapel-of-ease than in our main church building.
I attended several services in a Greek parish during my visit to Australia and you couldn't hear a word once they drew the curtains. Not that I'd have understood anyway as they were all in Greek.
I hope it goes without saying that I respect those Christian traditions which adopt a congregation-facing position or which have communion 'in the round' and so on.
It all comes down to theological choices of course. The Orthodox prefer to maintain a sense of mystery and the 'now and not yet' aspect and the symbolism around the opening and closing of the doors and curtains on the iconastasis reflects that.
If we understand that then it can 'work' - and it's particularly effective dramatically at Easter - but equally it can lead to incomprehensible mutterings and mumblings and indeed unhelpful superstitions.
The key thing of course, in whatever Christian tradition we are in, that we remember that these things are means to an end not ends in themselves and that however we worship we should not neglect the 'royal law of love' nor those things I cited from Mother Maria Skobtsova's observations in the OP and which @LatchKeyKid has reminded us more recently.
This East business rather depends on the orientation of the building, or it's a bit of headology.
That why I was careful to refer to “liturgical east,” which is a thing. The idea that the end of the church with the altar is “the east,” regardless of whether it’s actually east, is reflected in describing Masses where the priest faces the altar rather than the people as ad orientem (“to the east”).
This East business rather depends on the orientation of the building, or it's a bit of headology.
That why I was careful to refer to “liturgical east,” which is a thing. The idea that the end of the church with the altar is “the east,” regardless of whether it’s actually east, is reflected in describing Masses where the priest faces the altar rather than the people as ad orientem (“to the east”).
I think it's a reasonable facsimile in most churches.
Perhaps in the UK. Definitely not in the US.
One persons "thing" is another person's delusion. Which I why I always describe "ad orientem" as "backs to the people."
I describe it as 'turn your back on the congregation, huddle over the altar, and mumble'.
I very much agree with both of these sentiments. (Then again, I’m Reformed, so I would.)
In line with what @Enoch said about “turn your back on the congregation, huddle over the altar, and mumble,” I’m reminded of what a woman of my grandmother’s acquaintance once said to my grandmother. This woman was a member of, I think, a Church of Christ—she referred to other denominations like Presbyterian, Episcopal, Baptist, Catholic, etc., as “nicknames churches.” One Sunday she had occasion to go an Episcopal church. My grandmother saw her later in the week and asked how she liked it. “Oh, the Good Lord forgive me, I ain’t never goin’ back there again. Wasn’t nothin’ to it but stand up, sit down and mumble.”
Ad Orientem is pretty common in the SEC and I've no issue with it, though I do agree that it is incumbent upon the celebrant to ensure they're audible. I think it probably works best when the altar is quite close to the congregation, so there is the sense of the priest leading the congregation, rather than doing something secret away from them.
Comments
I forwarded that to my old friend who was at Knox College in Toronto, and he had heard it from an elderly professor whose version was almost the same:
Piskie Piskie boo an' ben'
Get ye doon an' up again.
Presby Presby, never bend,
Set ye doon on man's chief end.
Am much obliged to you. I hadn't heard it before and will cherish it.
Piskie, Piskie, always bend,
Doon on yer knees an’ up again.
Presby, Presby, dinna bend,
But only sit on man’s chief end.
Luth’ran, Luth’ran, stand and sit,
Sing the hymn and ponder it.
Kneel? Well… maybe. If we must.
Trust the Gospel, not our fuss.
Or
Luth’ran, Luth’ran, bend or stand,
Christ alone our chief command.
Kneel if able, sit if sore—
Faith is freedom, not a chore.
As to the placement of the altar in my home congregation, it is the center of the sanctuary.
I did mention those in the OP and made it clear that liturgical actions are no substitute for such things.
One persons "thing" is another person's delusion. Which I why I always describe "ad orientem" as "backs to the people."
Which reminds me of the old Baptist rhyme:
I'd rather be a Baptist
With a happy, smiling face
Than a miserable Methodist
And think I'll fall from grace.
We all have our triumphant, sectarian and party-spirit or Pharisaical tendencies.
'Lord, I thank you that I am not like that [Anglican/ Methodist/ Catholic/ Pentecostal ... insert church or denomination of choice] over there.'
My own Tradition is particularly prone to that.
Lord have mercy!
I hasten to add that I find the Ship refreshingly eirenic.
At the risk of adding more physical actions in a worship context whilst neglecting justice, mercy and all the things our Lord emphasised, it occurs to me that 'holy water' is a physical thing we haven't addressed so far.
Or incense come to that.
Or practices like foot-washing or the use of banners.
On the holy water thing, I'm taking a bottle of blessed water from the spring within the Anglican shrine at Walsingham and a bottle from my own parish to a poetry event later today in order to give them to an RC friend.
They asked me to bring some back from an ecumenical pilgrimage there. I couldn't find any in the RC shrine as they were doing some maintenance work in advance of the main pilgrimage season. Perhaps I didn't look hard enough.
My friend is eirenic enough to accept some from Anglican and Orthodox sources.
I'm a bit puzzled when they said they'd run out and hadn't had any for ages as they live almost opposite an historic RC church which one would expect to have holy water on tap as it were.
Still, they are very welcome to have some of mine.
I don't know whether this is 'kosher' for a non-RC but I will often dip my fingers in the holy water stoup and cross myself on my forehead with it on entering a Catholic church.
I've probably done the same in Anglo-Catholic settings.
I do it as a reminder of my baptism and also as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement that God is at work in and through other Christian churches as well as - occasionally
I'm very grateful that except among the most mega-spiky Anglo-Catholics, it seems to have more or less died out. Is it allowed in the Roman mass at all these days?
Those that use the Tridentine Mass turn their backs to the people. It is rare for those who use the modern Mass, though it is allowed - but not the muttering.
Our Bishop insists that clergy are audible when praying within the icon-screen, something that is more apparent in our tiny chapel-of-ease than in our main church building.
I attended several services in a Greek parish during my visit to Australia and you couldn't hear a word once they drew the curtains. Not that I'd have understood anyway as they were all in Greek.
I hope it goes without saying that I respect those Christian traditions which adopt a congregation-facing position or which have communion 'in the round' and so on.
It all comes down to theological choices of course. The Orthodox prefer to maintain a sense of mystery and the 'now and not yet' aspect and the symbolism around the opening and closing of the doors and curtains on the iconastasis reflects that.
If we understand that then it can 'work' - and it's particularly effective dramatically at Easter - but equally it can lead to incomprehensible mutterings and mumblings and indeed unhelpful superstitions.
The key thing of course, in whatever Christian tradition we are in, that we remember that these things are means to an end not ends in themselves and that however we worship we should not neglect the 'royal law of love' nor those things I cited from Mother Maria Skobtsova's observations in the OP and which @LatchKeyKid has reminded us more recently.
In line with what @Enoch said about “turn your back on the congregation, huddle over the altar, and mumble,” I’m reminded of what a woman of my grandmother’s acquaintance once said to my grandmother. This woman was a member of, I think, a Church of Christ—she referred to other denominations like Presbyterian, Episcopal, Baptist, Catholic, etc., as “nicknames churches.” One Sunday she had occasion to go an Episcopal church. My grandmother saw her later in the week and asked how she liked it. “Oh, the Good Lord forgive me, I ain’t never goin’ back there again. Wasn’t nothin’ to it but stand up, sit down and mumble.”