Let me make it clear; the Treeza Rant thread

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  • Erik the SwiftErik the Swift Shipmate Posts: 3
    There is now a petition on the Parliament website calling for Article 50 to be revoked. When I last saw it this morning it had passed 2.25 million signatures.

    I have signed it, but unfortunately I also think that no matter how many signatures it receives there is no way May would do it, or even see it as a justification for a second referendum.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I signed but I also read an article by one of the compilers. He says that most of people he votes are coming from areas that voted to remain in the referendum. I guess that bit of information means that the government can just say that is what you would expect and ignore the petition
  • The UK reminds me of HMS Hood. Outwardly impressive and powerful. But actually hopelessly outdated and vulnerable to a shell in the "right" place.

    Our society has been collapsing for some years now. It's very fragile.
  • Yes, a few journalists have been writing on that, that Brexit is a symptom, not a cause of chaos.
  • I doubt that Ms May is interested in what the people think, but with any luck the other EU leaders will not be ignoring the message that the petition sends.

    Interesting that well over half the signatures recorded on the data breakdown page are from people who are (or claim to be) UK citizens resident outside the country, a large proportion of whom (like me) could not vote in the referendum.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    I'm sure Corbyn would do a far better job, but the press have in for him, and any Labour politician, and the BBC parrots press opinion as if it is credible news.

    Or just make it up; today on Politics Live we learnt that Corbyn "wants to create chaos" "Cuba Style".

  • I doubt that Ms May is interested in what the people think, but with any luck the other EU leaders will not be ignoring the message that the petition sends.

    Interesting that well over half the signatures recorded on the data breakdown page are from people who are (or claim to be) UK citizens resident outside the country, a large proportion of whom (like me) could not vote in the referendum.

    Correction to that last post. The figures have been changed in the last few minutes, and it now appears that the majority of signatures originate in the UK.
  • I doubt that Ms May is interested in what the people think, but with any luck the other EU leaders will not be ignoring the message that the petition sends.

    Interesting that well over half the signatures recorded on the data breakdown page are from people who are (or claim to be) UK citizens resident outside the country, a large proportion of whom (like me) could not vote in the referendum.

    Correction to that last post. The figures have been changed in the last few minutes, and it now appears that the majority of signatures originate in the UK.

    I think the updates of where petitioners are seems to update very sporadically and possibly unreliably. I've checked a few times on the number who signed in my constituency, and for almost 24h it remained unchanged but sometime over the last 6h has changed to something very much larger.
  • Meanwhile, best avoid the M20 in Kent next week:
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-47668926
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    After her meeting yesterday with the chief Brexiteers the papers are tolling the final bell on May’s leadership. Even the Sun of all papers. Not only that but two of the three most likely to succeed her David Liddington and Micheal Gove ( the other is Ian Duncan Smith) are publicly standing by her. Probably with knives in hands.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    I've got to look up the full story, but I heard a snippet on the radio that some MPs were saying they'd change their view and support May's agreement if she resigned. I'm not sure how someone resigning changes your mind on a document you didn't want to support... I'm hoping I missed something.
  • The timing of the suggestion from the Tories that Mrs May may be forced out was clever. With the exception of the Observer, the Sunday papers dedicated their front pages to that with barely a mention (much less photos) of the 2 million people marching through London to demand a referendum on the deal. Once again, the impression is that the internal machinations of one political party are more important than the voice of the people.
  • AndrasAndras Shipmate
    The timing of the suggestion from the Tories that Mrs May may be forced out was clever. With the exception of the Observer, the Sunday papers dedicated their front pages to that with barely a mention (much less photos) of the 2 million people marching through London to demand a referendum on the deal. Once again, the impression is that the internal machinations of one political party are more important than the voice of the people.

    Yes, no mention at all on the front page of the Sunday Telegraph for instance, and one reader of that paper at Church yesterday said she hadn't even heard of the march.

    This morning Liam Fox, the not-very-bright Trade Secretary, made it plain that Parliament can carry out any indicative votes it likes, but Treeza will simply ignore them.

    There are rumours that the fabled Conservative Party Grandees, alleged to visit Prime Ministers to tell them that their time is up and to leave behind the metaphorical revolver and bottle of brandy so they can do 'the decent thing,' called on her last week. She allegedly thanked them for their visit, said that she was elected to do what she is doing, and saw them out.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    She is unlikely to go unless she is pushed. That is practically impossible for the Conservatives to do. It may take a vote of no confidence. The question is what difference will it make if she goes?
  • The timing of the suggestion from the Tories that Mrs May may be forced out was clever. With the exception of the Observer, the Sunday papers dedicated their front pages to that with barely a mention (much less photos) of the 2 million people marching through London to demand a referendum on the deal.

    It's always possible - though the marches and protests generally tend not to have a particularly high media profile (on the topic of the Observer, under Alan Rusbridger their sister paper had a policy of not covering marches, unless they led to a newsworthy event).

    It was clearly co-ordinated; as the Spectator also carried a pro-Gove column on Friday; though whether it was design or incompetence that it didn't result in May's resignation is unclear.

    May's career appears to consist of multiple episodes of grimly clinging on like a limpet - that and a taste for being vengeful appear to be her guiding principles.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    She is unlikely to go unless she is pushed. That is practically impossible for the Conservatives to do. It may take a vote of no confidence. The question is what difference will it make if she goes?

    This is the question.

    The EU has intimated that a long extension is an option with the following 2 conditions:
    1) The UK participates in the EU Parliament elections
    2) There is some pathway forward

    May is the roadblock to both of those.

    I would take any PM in the short term who got a long extension... I would even take May continuing if Parliament forced her hand of those.

    Her only plan is to force Parliament to take her deal and then we leave at the end of May (no pun intended)...

    When the referendum happened I was very sad but hoped that some sort of deal that was ok, would happen - Norway+ or whatever... As time has gone on two things have become clear to me. This I think has been evident in my posting; 1) I believe that stopping Brexit all together is possible (I didn't for the first year). 2) That the risk of No Deal has not gone away because of May's recklessness.

    May is fatally wounded - even more so than she was after the election in 2017 - the problem is that she has built her entire Premiership on fear of worse and that particular fear has only crystalised further. The great danger to the UK is that she (and so many of her party) either care about the Conservative Party more than they do the country or believe that what is good for the Tory Party is necessarily good for the country too. It is on this basis, that they imperil our future.

    It stinks. It really stinks.

    AFZ
  • The other problem is that there is no clear candidate to replace her. There are some pretenders to the throne, but none who can get support behind them.

    I suspect that the possible contenders are reluctant, knowing that they don't have any better idea for making Brexit happen, and not trashing the party and their own career.

    Weather I agree with them or not, I would prefer a decent politician to any of the current leadership. Of either main party.
  • The thought of BoJo The Clown, or some other idiot, taking over is enough to make one reach for alcohol.....
  • W HyattW Hyatt Shipmate
    I was surprised to see the Guardian last week indicating that he seemed to be the obvious successor (his photo with a headline that May had told her successor she wouldn't resign). Would he have enough support to be in the running?
  • BoJo as Prime Minister would increase demand for Scottish Independence.
  • BoJo as Prime Minister would increase demand for English independence.
    :flushed:
  • BoJo as Prime Minister would increase demand for English independence.
    :flushed:
    It would increase demand for an actual European state, government from Brussels rather than Wastemonster.
  • 'Wastemonster' - nice one, Alan!
    :lol:

    But yes, ISWYM.
  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.

    I wonder if he's forgotten the bit where the Israelites wander in the desert, sustained only by margarine, for forty years, and all cark it before their children finally reach the Promised Land?

    AG
  • I guess he wasn't at church on Sunday, to hear the lectionary reading of Paul recounting all the bodies of Israelites strewn across the desert. Treeza obviously needed to hold her meeting a wee bit later in the day to allow her guests to get to church first.
  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.

    And the ERG are employing their normal levels of historical literacy and styling themselves the 'Grand Wizards'.
  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.



    AG

    I read 'BJ' and thought 'bl*w-job'.
    :confounded:

    I need to get out more, so will collect my coat on my way out.

  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.

    And the ERG are employing their normal levels of historical literacy and styling themselves the 'Grand Wizards'.
    In any civilised country openly espousing such vile ideals as the racism of the Klan would be enough to effectively bar you from public office, and for your voice to be ignored. That these fascists have the reins of government is a national disgrace.

    They probably balance red baseball caps on top of the white pointy hats.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    /pedant alert/

    The term 'any civilised country' followed by 'openly espousing such vile ideals as the racism of the Klan' is surely an oxymoron....
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Parliament has taken power off the PM. Things are still complicated but it has at least given her a bloody nose. However she will probably slugg it out. They could pass a bill to force her to do what they want. Well Parliament seems to be sovereign after all.
  • I don't think they can. They can vote for free beer, and she can sit tight. The power of the executive is huge.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Hugal wrote: »
    Parliament has taken power off the PM ...
    Excuse my ignorance, but what does that mean in practice?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I don't think they can. They can vote for free beer, and she can sit tight. The power of the executive is huge.

    I hadn’t realised just how huge. 😵

  • Piglet wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Parliament has taken power off the PM ...
    Excuse my ignorance, but what does that mean in practice?
    In practice it means that, for a very short period of time, Parliament itself has control of what is discussed in Parliament. With the exception of the small amount of time allocated to Private Members Bills, the Government normally gets to determine what bills are discussed, how much time will be given to them and when they will be scheduled. The amendment voted through last night means that tomorrow it's Parliament itself that decides what alternatives to the Brexit plan get discussed, and what gets voted on in the indicative vote process.

    If the amendment hadn't been passed there would still have been debates on alternatives tomorrow, and indicative votes, but it would be the Government that made the decisions about what they would be. In theory, the government could have tabled a list of very unpopular or unrealistic options so that the deal on the table comes up top of the list before claiming that Parliament had had a say and Mays deal is still the only viable option.

    Whether the points for discussion are tabled by the government or Parliament there's no requirement on the government to actually shift position based on the result of the votes.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    A rather quixotic point was made in the HoC yesterday; when the European Council agreed an extension to the date of Brexit with the Prime Minister, that had an immediate effect in International Law - so the HoC now has no choice but to change the law that says we leave on 30 March.

    Which is interesting, because that law still needs to be voted on and changed in the British Parliament. If for some reason British MPs voted down the Statutory Instrument that made the change, there would be a tear in the space-time continuum. Or something.

    But, interestingly, it also suggests that the PM has the power to unilaterally agree an extension date with EU leaders without first getting an agreement for that date from the British parliament. And without the law first being changed to allow it.

    Which may, in turn, mean that the PM (this one or some other one) could go back to EU leaders and agree a longer extension - presumably with a commitment to a GE or referendum - without first getting an instruction from the British Parliament.
  • I suspect the fly in that ointment would be that Westminster Parliament would need to pass a statutory instrument of some form for elections to be held on May 23rd. Without that there could be no agreement on a further extension, even if that could otherwise be agreed without Parliament having to agree.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Yes May can just sit tight. She would be very silly however to ignore Parliament. Though sometimes you would think differently she is not a dictator. Parliament can act if they think the country would be harmed by the actions of the PM.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    @mr cheesy said -
    If for some reason British MPs voted down the Statutory Instrument that made the change, there would be a tear in the space-time continuum. Or something.

    :lol: :lol:

    I’m off to find the quotes file! Thanks for a smile on a grey day. Politically and weatherly.
  • AndrasAndras Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Yes May can just sit tight. She would be very silly however to ignore Parliament. Though sometimes you would think differently she is not a dictator. Parliament can act if they think the country would be harmed by the actions of the PM.

    Actually I suspect that her instincts are precisely in the direction of dictatorship, as a look at the documents leaked for Operation Yellowhammer show. If enacted - ie in the event of the No Deal that Mogg, Boris and others are talking up - she would effectively be able to run the country by decree, bringing in the military as necessary to enforce her decisions.

    So easily does democracy vanish.
  • I suspect the fly in that ointment would be that Westminster Parliament would need to pass a statutory instrument of some form for elections to be held on May 23rd.

    Yeah, and the issue there is that that particular vote may be too close to a 'staying in the EU' vote to actually win the support of the majority of MPs.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Think this fits better in the hot place – in Purgatory, someone mentioned emailing n° 10.

    I quite like this idea but I’m not sure what to write. All suggestions are welcome.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Well I attempted cogent reasonableness. I think ranty would be likely to be counterproductive. You, LVER, have specific personal harm, I guess, to add force to your argument. (1000 characters is not much!)
  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.

    And the ERG are employing their normal levels of historical literacy and styling themselves the 'Grand Wizards'.
    In any civilised country openly espousing such vile ideals as the racism of the Klan would be enough to effectively bar you from public office, and for your voice to be ignored. That these fascists have the reins of government is a national disgrace.

    They probably balance red baseball caps on top of the white pointy hats.

    ... and have now moved on to warn against 'Cultural Marxism' :roll:
  • Meanwhile BJ is trying to invoke the spirit of Moses in Egypt.



    AG

    I read 'BJ' and thought 'bl*w-job'.
    :confounded:

    I need to get out more, so will collect my coat on my way out.

    To be fair, you are not far off.

    Although if Stanley had chose a BJ instead of BJ, lots of people would be happier.
  • Umm....sorry to be obtuse, but you might need to unpack that a little, as they say....
    :grey_question:
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Umm....sorry to be obtuse, but you might need to unpack that a little, as they say....
    :grey_question:

    Stanley - Boris’s Dad. If he’d gone for the blow job instead of the conception of BJ ...

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Sore point.

    As somebody who lives not far from the western end of one of the westernmost countries in the EU, most of the population of which is in its eastern half and east of the Greenwich meridian, and thus likely to want to keep summer time all year round, the prospect of it getting light here at about 10am in December is not making me happy. I dimly remember the time the UK experimented with this and it was dismal.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Funfact: France is already on summer time all year round. We were originally on the same time zone as the UK. During WW2 the country went onto the same time zone as Germany and it's never been changed back.

    I live in hope that we'll end up permanently on our current winter time.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Read this and weep. And then consider where I am. Look at how much of the population lives east of the Greenwich meridian (Paris, Lille/Tourcoing/Roubaix, Strasbourg, Nancy, Lyon, Marseille...). I very much doubt we'll go for winter time.
This discussion has been closed.